Linux=PAIN

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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:02 pm

it appears that the common feeling here is that Linux just plain sucks as a desktop OS.

:wink:
only half joking.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:12 pm

Eh, as another linux newb I guess my tale is about the same.

Installed ubuntu under virtualbox, spent a couple of hours figuring out how to get the correct video resolution.
Started to work on why java apps wouldn't work, got frustrated.

I'll open it up next time I have some time to waste, but its slow going.
It doesn't help that I know nothing about command line commands (I know no /astronautsuprise majiktrick -n -t /pqq weeeeeeeeee)

Maybe if one breaks through the first intellectual barriers to entry, the rest of the learning is easier.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:15 pm

I may not have a full head of hair by end of day. Jesus wept. Trying to share out a folder (nfs/samba). I hit the help documentation and it points me to System->Administration->Shared Folders (yes the help that came with 8.04) guess what....

Yet another pain in the keester. :roll:
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:30 pm

From the Synaptic Package Manager I installed nautilus core. From the command line I sudo apt-get install nautilus-share. Seems to install. But there is no GUI for it in the Admin menu... Ridiculous.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:45 pm

It is like that visit to the doctor when the patient said "it hurts when I do this" and the doctor said "don't do that"

Ubuntu, especially, is very good at working right out of the box. It provides good applications that will handle the tasks and activities that most need and hardware support that is also usually seamless.

But Ubuntu does have its limits. It is FOSS and fit onto a single CD. It has development and life cycles. The fortunate thing is that, if you want something a bit different, someone else has probably had the same idea. Many of these folks have documented how to do what they did in step by step form with pictures and everything. Some have even created modified distributions to suit their interests.

If you want a server, check out eBox - it has a ways to go but does a decent job of providing a web interface and automating some of the more tricky server functions like getting ldap, samba, users, and groups working in sync.

In some respects, it is like trying to decide which version of Windows to get: 98, XP, Vist - basic, home premium, super duper whatever, etc.

I got an HP all in one super deal this summer and it took until just recently for HP to support its fax and scan functions. That update wasn't in the distributions but it was a download and execute that integrated with my system. OOo 3.0 as indicated above was a simple process as well (although I found that 2.4 will read docx files in its latest update).

You can find pain if you look for it. If you don't want the pain, "don't do that" but if you must do that, the odds are pretty good you'll get the pain no matter what medication you take to prevent it.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:25 pm

cass wrote:
Skrying wrote:.... just like you shouldn't force a comparison of Windows XP vs Ubuntu 8.10.


Why not? What killer thing can you do with Ubuntu 8.10 that cannot be done in XP? If you compare functionality and ease of use Linux ain't even in the race.... forget it. and now for another reason why its never going to be....

[SDG]Mantis wrote:
End User wrote:I love how Ubuntu Server is command line only. WTF?


Many Linux servers don't even have monitors attached to them. I've got a friend who uses Linux extensively for servers and has almost never touched Gnome, KDE, or any other GUI window manager.


Forge wrote:MOST SERVERS ARE NOT IN YOUR ROOM AT HOME. Most servers are remotely administrated. The command-line plus SSH and formerly telnet are time-honored ways to remotely administrate non-Windows boxen. Your insistence that 'SERVER == GUI' is simply not applicable.


** minor sarcasm to follow... linux evangelicals should gather up their skirt and move away from sharp objects.

Most Linux Lunatics Like it in the dark. See they think its much better to telnet in on a 200 baud modem have 25 80 character lines available for your total information dispersal/viewing pleasure. That works great if you get paid by the hour, and don't care if you ever get anything done. For some reason the mythical "server" will not work if it has to put up too much information at once, or allow users to easily modify and fix things, and "servers" work different than the whole rest of the universe. where its normally better to have lots of information available to you when you are working on something, when working on a "server" its much better to work one line at a time, and don't even thing about being able to copy/paste or recall what you just did.... any self respecting "server" god wouldn't even consider doing anything other than representing with his mad 400 word per minute VI skillz. Where the whole rest of the computing universe is loving some multiple desktop/multiple terminal window multitasking nirvana, "servers" should never progress. Reading a 25,000 page MAN guide is great on a 25 line screen. I recommend it as a good waste of 8hrs anyday. Hell it wouldn't make a bit of sense to be able to have the man page in one window and your terminal in another window typing while you are reading. And just thing how freaking completely idiotic it would be to have multiple windows up with google searches, and your own repository of old cli commands where you could just copy and paste right in without mistyping anything..... Damn that man.... GUI's suck I mean why would any self respecting "server" god not want to type every command over and over. And then there is the overhead issue, these modern server processors just don't have the spare cycles to be throwing down the drain running a GUI... I mean my god it would probably take 10% of one core of a 16 core server to run just the GUI... OH hell no!!! It makes more sense to just go commando CLI on one TTY than to risk that additional .625% load crashing the almighty "server".

just brew it! wrote:Forge, you're not helping matters. If you're really trying to make a case for Linux, be aware that militant Linux evangelism drives as many people away as it attracts. (Hint: This is TR, not /. :wink:)

Nah forge is helping, I'd be edgy in his shoes too. He needs a job to calm his nerves a little. After stuggling with several forms of linux and freebsd, no militant evangelism drove me away, it was merely my own need to get something useful done, and the realization that there were never going to be any tools for my trade available for linux that were supported/stable enough to invest in.


I feel compelled to correct you, even if I'm nowhere near a Linux expert (or O'Reilly book), thus proving that your finely crafted sarcasm is entirely wasted on me. There were no 200 baud modems, only 300 baud modems. The only thing you really need to do with a good server is restart it every once in awhile, even though my FreeBSD MRTG server hasn't been restarted in eons. Nice avoidance of the man page page there, but a 28,000 page man page is still a man page. It just does that to play nice with humans. What's wrong with the CLI? Running a GUI is fairly hardware intensive, running without one makes your ROI a lot better. You are probably not aware that you can also multitask with the CLI, using ^z and fg to switch between jobs. If that's not enough, you can also switch between consoles with a Ctrl+Function key, but I think you knew that. It's vi, not VI too.

And it's a kilt, not a skirt.

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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:57 pm

axeman wrote:
jinjuku wrote:From the Synaptic Package Manager I installed nautilus core. From the command line I sudo apt-get install nautilus-share. Seems to install. But there is no GUI for it in the Admin menu... Ridiculous.


The Administration menu has nothing to do with nautilus, so there's no reason to expect anything there. You're failing to put any effort into learning what you're trying to use, and you have the balls to bitch about it? Open some location with nautilus, right click on a folder, and choose "sharing options", that is where the nautilus-share extension will be found. Sheesh. Expecting results without any foreknowledge and just blindly installing stuff is as ridiculous in a Windows context as it is Linux. You already know how to set things up on Windows, but it's probably been so long since you learned it you think it's easier since it's second nature now. I doubt anyone learned everything about Windows networking in a day or a week. It's unfathomable to conclude that just because something is different it is inferior. Leave that to racists.


Ok, why couldn't I find something that simple on the net some where? How about 1. Install nautilus-core from Synaptic package manager 2. Open up a terminal window-> sudo apt-get install nautilus-whatever
3. sudo apt-get samba 4. create a folder, right click and share...

It's not going about it blindly, it's finding straight foward getting started info that is at issue. I know there is a help system built into Ubuntu, unfortunately it needs a bit of updating.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:38 pm

FireGryphon wrote:I feel his pain when he gets lost in the dark, and the Linux fans who brought him there aren't willing to give him a candle.


When I am lost in the dark, I ask for a candle, I don't just rant about how !!!!ty the darkness is. Most new users seem to fail on this more than anything.

If you are busy ranting about how horrible Linux is, and how bad it's treating you, don't expect Linux users to fling themselves at you.

Simply point out your difficulty as clearly as you can and ask sincerely and politely for help. You will get some if any is available.

Ranting about how much things suck and how no one will help you simply makes you look like a ranting troll, and you'll be quietly avoided at best, counter-ranted and flamed at at worst.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:49 pm

jinjuku wrote:Installing JRE and Open Office, lets be honest, shouldn't be a monumental task.


And it's not. You however, are not trying to simply install OOo or the JRE. Those would be automagically installed and managed by the package manager, and updates and revisions would be silently and automatically applied for you.

You decided that OOo as provided wasn't good enough and decided to use a hammer to force-install OOo 3, which is very new and not yet supported on your chosen distro.

This is very very similar to installing Windows 2000 and then fighting to get IE7 installed. It's not available from upstream. Don't mess with it and then cry about how the OS sucks and 'nothing' is supported and no one is trying to help you.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:02 am

OMG. I've wanted to use this link for the past 5 minutes:

http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q ... sitory&l=1
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:20 am

I remember my first walk in the linux park. No it wasn't as "simple as windows", but is was an enjoyable and satisfying walk.

I have quite a few topics in the Linux forums (with more to come . . . . and soon) trying to get from point A to B. Still a noob but making some headway I think.

I must admit that most of the times I try to find a solution to a problem that I think there is alot of (like trying to get sound over HDMI), I get no-where and fast - seeing that I installed the latest ALSA drivers myself and now trying to cleanup the failure - ususally the answer is very long winded and written for people who KNOW what they are doing. I have gotten step-by-step help on these forums before, but the most other places are just people trying to feel superior to those actually WANTING to learn.
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Life=PAIN, get used to it

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:49 am

Wow, people are funny. There is plenty of documentation and tons of people willing to help if you just ask. This applies just as much for Windows as it does for Linux.

And Windows has just as many problems as Linux, it's just different. If someone decides to go outside of the default supported stuff (ie: manually "uninstalling" OpenOffice 2 and trying to install OpenOffice 3) and they don't find out what in the world they need to do, that is their own fault. I'm not a Linux Evangelist, nor am I an expert Linux user, but I know how to use Google and find out how to do what I need to do. The same goes for when I am trying to do something in Windows. Find out how to do something before you try to do it.

Corith wrote:OMG. I've wanted to use this link for the past 5 minutes:

http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q ... sitory&l=1


See? It's easy.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:54 am

danny e. wrote:it appears that the common feeling here is that Linux just plain sucks as a desktop OS.

:wink:
only half joking.

I disagree, this thread can be summed up in this one quote (taken out of context, but still applicable):
I have to learn. That is too much of an undertaking for me

If you don't want to put the time in to learn something new, then don't come here complaining that said new thing sucks. It sounds a lot like sour grapes to me. I agree with Forge that a lot of posters are basically saying "I installed X distro because I heard Linux was cool, I didn't know how to use it, I didn't put in more than a token effort to learn, I couldn't do X advanced thing like I already know how to do in Windows, therefore I give up: Linux sucks".

You're all forgetting that you didn't INSTANTLY know how to use Windows and do advanced things with it. It took a long time and it was initially painful. Eventually you learned. I've been using DOS since 1986 and Windows since 1991. It was HARD -- I had to learn a whole bunch of crap about DOS, config.sys, autoexec.bat, emm386, and himem.sys *shudder* just to get my games working. I got a book and I learned it. But I wasn't truly comfortable with it for a few YEARS.

Then in February, I got a job where I needed to be running Fedora 8. Whoa, WTH. I needed to learn how to install it first. Then once it was installed, I didn't know how do anything except for the most basic tasks. Oh, BTW, Fedora 8 comes with some weird version of Java, and an old version of Tomcat. I needed to install the latest version of those, and a bunch of other stuff... no idea how to do that. Oh, and a few weeks later I got a second LCD (woot!) but no idea how to make it work with my Nvidia card. So I took the time and learned. I spent MANY hours on Google, and more hours asking other people in the office. After a couple of weeks I finally got it all running. It works great and I learned a lot in the process. Now I help other people in the office learn.

Then I come to TR and see people like Forge get called zealots because he's invested a considerable amount of time learning Linux (and believe me, it takes A LOT of time to learn this stuff, and every distro is a little different) only to hear others make a half-hearted effort and then give up and say "it sucks". :roll: Give me a break.

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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:18 pm

Most people trying Ubuntu or some other "easy to use" distro are probably expecting something along the lines of "Windows, but better" or "Windows that just works." What they are in fact looking for is a free version of Mac OSX :P

Seriously, no OS is easy or intuitive or just works, especially not with Linux. Read documentation, ask questions, make sweet love to terminal, prepare to get owned repeatedly, and just generally expect things NOT to work. Welcome to the world of Open-Source where corporations really don't care about supporting the uncountably large amount of different distrobutions, where the user is expected to put in more effort than just clicking Next. If you want Unix based OS and easy to use, seriously go use Mac OSX or Apple Server. Linux is not what you're looking for. If you want to be teabagged by an OS until you understand its inner workings and breath conf files, welcome aboard.

Of course, my perspective may be skewed since I started my Linux experience with Gentoo and still maintain that anyone who wants to try Linux should start with that. "BAAAWWHH I WANT GUI INSTALLS." Tough luck, try spending several hours waiting for a desktop environment to finish compiling only to find out it won't work because you forgot to set a USE variable when you compiled Xorg. :)
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:01 pm

In my experience, Linux has been simpler to use than Windows. At least, when it's come to fixing problems. Sure, Linux may be a little cryptic with it's error messages, but at least it shows one. There are several programs in Windows, including Windows itself, that either never display an error, or display one that is so general that the problem can't be reliably pinned down, whereas a cryptic message in Linux always means the same thing.

Right now, I have gone several days without Windows. The only reason I use it now is for games and Netflix. I will concede that Linux is not as easy as a point-and-click install, but I have emerge -aDuNv world. :D
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:19 pm

DaveG: Thanks, I think. Glad to hear things are slowly hammering out for you.

titan: You might want to prune that -N out of there. That's telling portage to check for USE flag changes on every emerge, and if you do more than 1 or 2 merges in a day, that's doing nothing but making portage DB churn. Do you change USE daily? We get OT, nevermind.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:20 pm

Forge wrote:titan: You might want to prune that -N out of there. That's telling portage to check for USE flag changes on every emerge, and if you do more than 1 or 2 merges in a day, that's doing nothing but making portage DB churn. Do you change USE daily? We get OT, nevermind.


I'm still finding my preferred set of USE Flags. And I don't do an emerge -aDuNv world every day. In fact, my last emerge --sync was on Sunday. Also, it doesn't really hurt that much. Also, I haven't noticed much of a change in process time for that list to pop up.
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:38 pm

I have been using Linux for 2 years (Ubuntu) and while I'm not an expert I can get around pretty well. While I don't believe in disrespecting people, I've started to understand why some seasoned users get angry. Over the past three years Linux has made HUGE steps in ease of use. It IS FAR FAR easier to go from a blank install to productive on Linux in about 30 minutes or less. You are surfing the web, creating office documents, listening to music, etc. Windows even after several reboots from installing drivers just can't hold a candle to Linux's out of the box experience.

Now as far as your complaints, I'm sorry but there just isn't any sympathy for someone who decided (why I don't know on a new OS) to uninstall a package that was already installed just so you could experience the latest and greatest. It's obvious that Linux is new to you so the question is why would you take on a task when you obviously don't know a thing about .debs or apt-get or really anything? That doesn't sound too smart.

In addition Sun releases the Open Office suite with debs. They even give you the directions on their website. No google needed... ITS ON THEIR WEBSITE. You could have downloaded them installed them by double-clicking and been up in running in seconds. Or even easier added the ubuntu openoffice repository and been running it again in seconds. Instead sounds like you took the hard way on purpose. Whose fault is that? You remind me of my father on Christmas. My mother would get so mad with him for attempting to put together my bike without reading the directions. Here you are doing the same thing and it's the bike's (Ubuntu) fault because you didn't read the directions??
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Re: Linux=PAIN

Postposted on Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:04 pm

End User wrote:I almost cried when I read through this post!

For the past few weeks I have been looking over Ubuntu Desktop/Server/Studio. I am mainly interested in Server but, as an amateur photographer, I was looking at Desktop and Studio as well. I totally agree that one should not have to dig around for a command line solution to install software (I used that Softpedia link over the weekend to update to OO 3.0) and I don't want to wait until some higher authority gets around to adding it to the list of available apps. All I want to do is download a fraking installer and double click on it. What's so hard about that!

I love how Ubuntu Server is command line only. WTF? Sure, hit a home run with your diehard users but come on! So, after installing the GUI onto Server, I still have to run around and look for GUI front end tools for standard server features. Sigh. I want to use Linux as a tool, not create a new hobby. I hate to say it but I don't have the time to go through these hoops. I'm just an end user.

One more thing: it is rather puzzling to me that the Ubuntu Studio installer process recognized my BT keyboard/mouse yet the installed OS does not!


Unlike some of the others I can admit that linux's CLI can be intimidating when first getting down to brass tacks. However, the "Server" edition of anything is meant for experienced user's ..PERIOD. You may be able to set up a domain controller easier in Windows, however it takes someone who has at least taken a class or two in order to do it right.

You went from Netgear to Cisco and you didn't think it was going to be difficult? Linux Server, while I would LOVE a default Apache served frontend, is meant to be very very lean. Thus you are unlikely in most versions to receive a front end.

An example is with 256 MB of ram you can get a web server, SQL database, file server, and a domain controller all on the same box moving at speeds that would make Windows cry and go home without it's lunch money. In addition you can install web front ends on all of those services and still operate way under the 256 MB threshold.
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