Adventures in Debian

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Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:17 am

Installed Debian 7.4 the other day in VMware. Used one of the "small CDs" to install from. Used NAT in VMware so additional packages could be installed during system installation. System is now installed. Changed from NAT to Bridged in VMware. I knew this would break my network connection just as it has in the past, but lots seems to have changed since Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. So, some questions:

1) Net-tools is deprecated? Doesn't seem to be installed on Debian 7.4. Should I install it?

2) Trying not to bother the Linux elites with trivial questions, I've been diligently reading the Debian Reference. Can't find mention as to how to find out what packages are installed on the system, nor where packages conventionally get installed on the system. There's /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/sbin. Looking for the section in the Debian Reference that describes the organization of the filesystem and stuff.

3) Is it better these days to use aptitude from the command line than apt-get?


I remember the network connection problem was simple to solve. I find a file - /etc/interfaces or something like that - and add the new interface to it for the bridged connection. But first I have to find the interface for the bridged connection. I thought I used ifconfig to list the interfaces, but when I tried to do so I found that ifconfig is not installed, and after a bit of investigation came upon the information that says that ifconfig - as a part of net-tools - may now be obsolete, so I'm just trying to regain my footing here.
flip-mode
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:47 am

flip-mode wrote:1) Net-tools is deprecated? Doesn't seem to be installed on Debian 7.4. Should I install it?


Which particular tool in the set are you trying to use?

Generally speaking it's been replaced by iproute2, which should be core if net-tools isn't. Behind the scenes Linux is trying to move away from ioctls towards netlink.

If you are looking for ifconfig's replacement, try `ip addr show`

flip-mode wrote:2) Trying not to bother the Linux elites with trivial questions, I've been diligently reading the Debian Reference. Can't find mention as to how to find out what packages are installed on the system, nor where packages conventionally get installed on the system. There's /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/sbin. Looking for the section in the Debian Reference that describes the organization of the filesystem and stuff.


`dpkg -l` will list all installed packages, you might want to pipe the output to less: `dpkg -l | less`

If you want to find stuff like you are saying, try `whereis` and `which`

"whereis" tells you where a binary/library/source/whatever is located.

"which" tells you what the shell is actually doing when you type any given command.

flip-mode wrote:3) Is it better these days to use aptitude from the command line than apt-get?


If you like ncurses, other than that. <shrug>
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:02 am

Aptitude has its fans; it's a decent front-end. I still use apt-get and dpkg from the command line, just because that's what I'm accustomed to.

You may want to install apt-file, it is useful for figuring out the relationships between packages and installed files.

On a vaguely related note, try running "apt-get moo" sometime. Then run "aptitude moo" with increasing levels of verbosity (first with no other options, then "aptitude -v moo", then with "-vv", and so on).
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:15 am

Thanks, all. I may be back with more questions :lol: Going to kick the tires a bit and not try to rush through this.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:37 am

I think ifconfig is still there in Debian. The usual problem is it is /sbin/ifconfig and /sbin is not in a normal users path. Debian considers this a feature rather than a bug.
ifconfig doesn't show interfaces that are down by default, you need "ifconfig -a" to show all of them. The file where you setup the network interface is /etc/network/interfaces
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:15 pm

flip-mode wrote:1) Net-tools is deprecated? Doesn't seem to be installed on Debian 7.4. Should I install it?


If that's what you're comfortable with. Just note that it's deprecated.

2) Trying not to bother the Linux elites with trivial questions, I've been diligently reading the Debian Reference. Can't find mention as to how to find out what packages are installed on the system, nor where packages conventionally get installed on the system. There's /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/sbin. Looking for the section in the Debian Reference that describes the organization of the filesystem and stuff.


We all started somewhere.

Per the Linux tradition of not differentiating between user installed software and base system software, the packages are installed wherever the maintainer felt like they should go. Checking the filesystem isn't going to easily help figure out what has been installed. find, locate, which, and whereis are your friend.

aptitude search '~i' per this thread should work.

3) Is it better these days to use aptitude from the command line than apt-get?


I like aptitude better, but that's not saying much coming from me.

aptitude can be used with the same command line switches as apt. It does have an ncurses interface, but I only use it as an apt substitute.

I remember the network connection problem was simple to solve. I find a file - /etc/interfaces or something like that - and add the new interface to it for the bridged connection. But first I have to find the interface for the bridged connection. I thought I used ifconfig to list the interfaces, but when I tried to do so I found that ifconfig is not installed, and after a bit of investigation came upon the information that says that ifconfig - as a part of net-tools - may now be obsolete, so I'm just trying to regain my footing here.


/etc/inferfaces should be correct file for Debian.

ip can be used as substitution for ifconfig. Its output is not as friendly as ifconfig, and it has the comamnd switches subcommand option suboption attribute disease.
ip link to show all interfaces.
ip link show eth0 to show just the eth0 interface.
ip addr show eth0 to show the IP address and other IP related stuff for eth0.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:19 pm

notfred wrote:I think ifconfig is still there in Debian. The usual problem is it is /sbin/ifconfig and /sbin is not in a normal users path. Debian considers this a feature rather than a bug.
ifconfig doesn't show interfaces that are down by default, you need "ifconfig -a" to show all of them. The file where you setup the network interface is /etc/network/interfaces


It is a feature. Normal users shouldn't have a need for the stuff in sbin.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:30 pm

notfred wrote:I think ifconfig is still there in Debian. The usual problem is it is /sbin/ifconfig and /sbin is not in a normal users path. Debian considers this a feature rather than a bug.


I'm thinking it isn't, because it sounds like flip-mode was saying that net-tools isn't part of the basic install.

Really, though, the better way is `ip addr show`. That's part of iproute2 toolset, which is the one we're supposed to be using. ifconfig and the rest of NET-3 toolset have been deprecated for quite some time, so Debian is doing things the right way. It isn't a bug...

If you want it, install net-tools, but if you are learning this stuff for the first time you might as well learn it the right way.

Worry about ifconfig if you have to support older unixes, if you don't, go boldly into the brave new world. :wink:
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:51 pm

notfred wrote:I think ifconfig is still there in Debian. The usual problem is it is /sbin/ifconfig and /sbin is not in a normal users path. Debian considers this a feature rather than a bug.
ifconfig doesn't show interfaces that are down by default, you need "ifconfig -a" to show all of them. The file where you setup the network interface is /etc/network/interfaces


Right. Problem is, I did "ifconfig -a" and found out that ifconfig is not installed. Started looking into that and saw somewhere - I think in the Debian Reference - that ifconfig and the net-tools suite of which it is a part is considered obsolete. But I haven't gotten any further than that yet - had to return to my normal duties.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:57 pm

Glorious wrote:
notfred wrote:I think ifconfig is still there in Debian. The usual problem is it is /sbin/ifconfig and /sbin is not in a normal users path. Debian considers this a feature rather than a bug.


I'm thinking it isn't, because it sounds like flip-mode was saying that net-tools isn't part of the basic install.

Really, though, the better way is `ip addr show`. That's part of iproute2 toolset, which is the one we're supposed to be using. ifconfig and the rest of NET-3 toolset have been deprecated for quite some time, so Debian is doing things the right way. It isn't a bug...

If you want it, install net-tools, but if you are learning this stuff for the first time you might as well learn it the right way.

Worry about ifconfig if you have to support older unixes, if you don't, go boldly into the brave new world. :wink:


This isn't my first time, but it has been a long time. I installed Ubuntu 10.04 LTS a while ago. It's still running to this day as my company's ftp server. All I've ever done since the initial install is create new ftp user accounts. I have no idea how the machine I once set up works :lol:

So I'm getting back into it for the purposes of deploying an internal website for the company. And I prefer to keep up with the times, so I'll gladly learn the new way.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:58 pm

Flatland_Spider wrote:/etc/inferfaces should be correct file for Debian.

ip can be used as substitution for ifconfig. Its output is not as friendly as ifconfig, and it has the comamnd switches subcommand option suboption attribute disease.
ip link to show all interfaces.
ip link show eth0 to show just the eth0 interface.
ip addr show eth0 to show the IP address and other IP related stuff for eth0.


Great help! Thanks.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:41 pm

flip-mode wrote:Right. Problem is, I did "ifconfig -a" and found out that ifconfig is not installed. Started looking into that and saw somewhere - I think in the Debian Reference - that ifconfig and the net-tools suite of which it is a part is considered obsolete. But I haven't gotten any further than that yet - had to return to my normal duties.


notfred probably didn't realize that command-not-found explicitly told you that package containing that program wasn't installed. :wink:

flip-mode wrote:This isn't my first time, but it has been a long time. I installed Ubuntu 10.04 LTS a while ago. It's still running to this day as my company's ftp server. All I've ever done since the initial install is create new ftp user accounts. I have no idea how the machine I once set up works


I wasn't really referring to you, as you explicitly knew how to not only get ifconfig (apt-get install net-tools) but why it wasn't installed (deprecation). Thus you were clearly asking what the right/newer way of doing it was. :D
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Tab

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:43 pm

Meh. I have to type ip addr to get what ifco/Tab will give me and it's not formatted as nicely.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:51 pm

PenGun wrote:Meh. I have to type ip addr to get what ifco/Tab will give me and it's not formatted as nicely.


As someone who has to routinely use ancient and currently unsupported unixes at work (with further and painful limitations on what I'm allowed to build on them...), I *really* don't understand your insistence that unix is definitively better than everything else, with the older and harder it is the better.

ifconfig was deprecated for a reason (and a good one at that), and if you really like the formatting so much then you can write your own wrapper however you like around iproute2 and alias it.

I mean, isn't that sort of thing what you're all about? :roll:
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:14 pm

Glorious wrote:
PenGun wrote:Meh. I have to type ip addr to get what ifco/Tab will give me and it's not formatted as nicely.


As someone who has to routinely use ancient and currently unsupported unixes at work (with further and painful limitations on what I'm allowed to build on them...), I *really* don't understand your insistence that unix is definitively better than everything else, with the older and harder it is the better.

ifconfig was deprecated for a reason (and a good one at that), and if you really like the formatting so much then you can write your own wrapper however you like around iproute2 and alias it.

I mean, isn't that sort of thing what you're all about? :roll:

It's two more key strokes. I have both ifconfig and the ip stuff on my Slak install.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:27 pm

So make an alias and quit whining.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:33 pm

bthylafh wrote:So make an alias and quit whining.


Why would I alias 4 keys and TAB. To make a shorter one? ;) If I had to use ip addr a lot I might.

Meh is hardly whining, It's an more expression of mild contempt.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:40 pm

PenGun wrote: Why would I alias 4 keys and TAB. To make a shorter one? ;) If I had to use ip addr a lot I might.

Well, you were complaining about 2 additional keystrokes. So why not shave off 2 more? :lol:
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:02 pm

Guys, guys, please - not here :lol:
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:04 pm

just brew it! wrote:
PenGun wrote: Why would I alias 4 keys and TAB. To make a shorter one? ;) If I had to use ip addr a lot I might.

Well, you were complaining about 2 additional keystrokes. So why not shave off 2 more? :lol:

It's three actually, you left out space. ;)

I hope no one is taking this seriously, that would be silly.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:35 pm

just brew it! wrote:Aptitude has its fans; it's a decent front-end. I still use apt-get and dpkg from the command line, just because that's what I'm accustomed to.

You may want to install apt-file, it is useful for figuring out the relationships between packages and installed files.

On a vaguely related note, try running "apt-get moo" sometime. Then run "aptitude moo" with increasing levels of verbosity (first with no other options, then "aptitude -v moo", then with "-vv", and so on).


I disliked how dependency heavy so many debian packages were back when I used to use Debian every day. This was around the time of etch being testing. So I abandoned apt in favour of doing things myself with dpkg, and man, though my system worked fine, installing new software after a while became a real pain. moral of the story, you might get a dozen different packages just to install a single piece of software, but it has its purpose as you don't want to make things difficult for the package managing.
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:42 pm

fhohj wrote:I disliked how dependency heavy so many debian packages were back when I used to use Debian every day. This was around the time of etch being testing. So I abandoned apt in favour of doing things myself with dpkg, and man, though my system worked fine, installing new software after a while became a real pain. moral of the story, you might get a dozen different packages just to install a single piece of software, but it has its purpose as you don't want to make things difficult for the package managing.

Yeah, keeping track of dependencies is the package manager's JOB. Unless you have very specific needs for newer/older versions of things that aren't in the standard repositories, let the package manager do all of the dependency management for you, it will save you a lot of grief!
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:00 pm

just brew it! wrote:
fhohj wrote:I disliked how dependency heavy so many debian packages were back when I used to use Debian every day. This was around the time of etch being testing. So I abandoned apt in favour of doing things myself with dpkg, and man, though my system worked fine, installing new software after a while became a real pain. moral of the story, you might get a dozen different packages just to install a single piece of software, but it has its purpose as you don't want to make things difficult for the package managing.

Yeah, keeping track of dependencies is the package manager's JOB. Unless you have very specific needs for newer/older versions of things that aren't in the standard repositories, let the package manager do all of the dependency management for you, it will save you a lot of grief!


that's how it started for me. I needed to downgrade something to do with gcc or perhaps it had do with some nonsensical stuff I had to do with regards to using and older firmware related application to get support on some piece of hardware. and then we was off to the races of system recklessness!
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:56 pm

That way lies madness. Before you know it, you're reading LFS and building everything from upstream source. Then one day you say to yourself, "Hey, how hard could it possibly be to roll my own distro?" The next thing you know you're hosting your own custom package repository, and spending all of your time hanging out on Linux mailing lists and fora. Your wife has divorced you, your dog has run away, and your lawn looks like a prairie restoration experiment. :lol:
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Re: Adventures in Debian

Postposted on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:58 pm

just brew it! wrote:and your lawn looks like a prairie restoration experiment. :lol:

Hey, I resemble that and all I can do is launch a Kubuntu install DVD.
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