Adobe vs. Apple

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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:52 pm

sschaem wrote:It more like "I would like to heat up this lasagna" ....

"I cant do that Tanker27" "the lazagna contain to much sodium and its bad for you".... "Dont do that Tanker27..." "lawyers are on their way Tanker27..."


lol

Adobes closed standards are bad, but apple is no better. As was said above, there's no way microsoft would get away with this. Apple is really just painting out Adobe to be bad because they can't support the plugin on their hardware, but really its no worse than any of the closed platforms Apple likes to keep its tight grip on.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:56 am

The complete lack of understanding of the topic at hand by some of the posters here is befuddling.

The issue is that Apple is completely blocking any app which isn't written in objective C/C++. This means any platform which lets the developer write code once and deploy for any platform is screwed. Need to build something that works on all mobile platforms? You're FUBARed. Write once for Android/Blackberry/rest and then rewrite the entire thing for the iPhone OS. It's completely counter productive and time consuming.

This doesn't just target Adobe. A number of successful platforms including Unity, Titanium, MonoTouch and a number of others fall into the cross hair too.

The number of people spouting the Apple knows best routine is frankly scary. No, they're not doing you a favor. They're just making counter-intuitive petty rules to hurt their developers.

End User wrote:Apple is basically telling developers to stop being lazy and write real iPhone/iPad apps via Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript. I wish Apple did this earlier.
You're an idiot and you should shut up right now. You have no idea as to what the unholy **** you're talking about. Please, just shut up.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:49 am

lordT wrote:The issue is that Apple is completely blocking any app which isn't written in objective C/C++. This means any platform which lets the developer write code once and deploy for any platform is screwed. Need to build something that works on all mobile platforms? You're FUBARed. Write once for Android/Blackberry/rest and then rewrite the entire thing for the iPhone OS. It's completely counter productive and time consuming.


For the developer. Its Apple's device it's their rules! So what if a developer has too write two apps for each platform. Thats not Apples problem. You want the ability to hawk your wares on my device you follow my rules. Its THAT simple.

Now as a consumer if I wanted X program, because it would benefit greatly, and I had a choice of device A which offers it or device B which doesnt which do you think I would choose?

But as most of you are doing is buying device B and then bitching about not being able to get X program on it. That is fracking ridiculous. And furthermore you complain to the device manufacturer INSTEAD of complaining to program X programmer to get their SH*t together and offer it up on device B! That is retarded beyond comprehension!
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:03 am

Yeah, I could care less about the developers (piracy issues aside) and what they have to write their programs in. Apple makes development on the iPhone cheap ($99/year their tools otherwise being completely free) and easy if you use their tools. EA Games has a small studio with a handful of employees churning out one good game after another. Everyone and their brother wants to be on the platform, because it's lucrative, and if you want to be on the platform you play by the platform holder's rules.

The only way to make that change is for developers en masse to say no. They won't because they want to make some money.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:46 am

derFunkenstein wrote:Yeah, I could care less about the developers (piracy issues aside) and what they have to write their programs in. Apple makes development on the iPhone cheap ($99/year their tools otherwise being completely free) and easy if you use their tools. EA Games has a small studio with a handful of employees churning out one good game after another. Everyone and their brother wants to be on the platform, because it's lucrative, and if you want to be on the platform you play by the platform holder's rules.

The only way to make that change is for developers en masse to say no. They won't because they want to make some money.


If a development company must spend extra time writing a new version of their application for a specific platform they have less time to actually improve their application. An improved application with better features is better FOR YOU.

But please, keeping supporting a CHANGE THAT WAS UNNEEDED that hurts you.

It's like everyone these days is forgetting the consumers RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. Advocate YOURSELF NOT A COMPANY.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:53 am

Skrying wrote:The only way to make that change is for developers en masse to say no. They won't because they want to make some money.

If a development company must spend extra time writing a new version of their application for a specific platform they have less time to actually improve their application. An improved application with better features is better FOR YOU.

But please, keeping supporting a CHANGE THAT WAS UNNEEDED that hurts you.

It's like everyone these days is forgetting the consumers RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. Advocate YOURSELF NOT A COMPANY.


Whatever! Dev's always augment their staffs in many ways. Thats fact.

A consumer's right to complain is only when something is advertised as its not or it does undue harm to oneself. Its NOT your company you cant tell them what to do. Want to affect them, dont buy their products. But if you do dont bitch about it. :roll:
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:20 am

I'm really hoping that this whole thing is just a case of Apple lashing out with too big a stick. There's a lot of really useless apps in the store that are basically single-site RSS readers, and most of them are auto-generated by just a few different programs which turn HTML input into Objective-C, and some of them are paid-for. Apple started rejecting these on quality grounds a while back but having a ban hammer is always easier on reviewers.

If it does last and is enforced, I'm going to be pretty disappointed. :(
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:56 am

tanker27 wrote:Whatever! Dev's always augment their staffs in many ways. Thats fact.

A consumer's right to complain is only when something is advertised as its not or it does undue harm to oneself. Its NOT your company you cant tell them what to do. Want to affect them, dont buy their products. But if you do dont bitch about it. :roll:


Adding costs or causing smaller devs to not be able to reach a larger audience and grow. Which means potentially less applications or lower quality applications.

Also, numerous people who already owned an iPhone or iPod Touch just had their product get worse. Those people cannot un-buy it.

That's also an extremely limited and dangerous view on consumer rights.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:18 pm

Skrying wrote:Advocate YOURSELF NOT A COMPANY.

Dude, put the bottle and the razor blades down. I don't see how this decision hurts me. You know what hurts me more than anything (wrt the app store, anyway, because things like "giant metal blocks falling on my head" aren't taken into consideration) is the layout of the app store and the complete inability to find stuff that does what I want. There are piles of great apps, but there are larger piles of steaming crap I have to wade through. This is minor and developers can continue to cry me a river. If you want to make money you have to use the tools for the platform. No big deal.

Also, I hope Adobe and Flash DIAF. Maybe that's why I'm less than sympathetic to those crying about the change.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:46 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:Dude, put the bottle and the razor blades down. I don't see how this decision hurts me. You know what hurts me more than anything (wrt the app store, anyway, because things like "giant metal blocks falling on my head" aren't taken into consideration) is the layout of the app store and the complete inability to find stuff that does what I want. There are piles of great apps, but there are larger piles of steaming crap I have to wade through. This is minor and developers can continue to cry me a river. If you want to make money you have to use the tools for the platform. No big deal.

Also, I hope Adobe and Flash DIAF. Maybe that's why I'm less than sympathetic to those crying about the change.


Your last sentence says it all. You still see this as an issue that only hurts Adobe. It hurts you, it hurts smaller developers, it hurts everyone. This isn't just an issue with regard to Apple anymore. It's a greater issue that impacts society because people think the way you are right now. This about consumers demanding better from products they pay for. It's the most important step in capitalism working. The consumer must be an advocate for themselves because corporations won't.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:55 pm

I think people are missing the real effect this is going to have. For the iphone users the result of this isn't going to be obvious right away (except for perhaps suddenly a number of apps both good and bad disappearing off the store). Developer for the most part will suck it up and deal with it and change their practices. Its really going to hurt android and other smart phone platforms in the near term because it will be difficult for a developer to port their software to other platforms. For the long term though I see this as a gamble by apple. In reality the only reason they can get away with this for now is because they have the market share and the app store is where the money is so someone who wants to make a smart phone app is going to make an iphone app first. A year from now though android is going to have a much larger market share, windows phone 7 will be out, web os will probably still be around. A developer then might then find that they can code their stuff once and release it on multiple platforms that are not the iphone or they can code it for the iphone. Right now it makes sense to go straight for the iphone but that might not always be the case. On the flip side if the gamble pays off other smart phone platforms will feel the hurt by having smaller app stores and weaker offering making the iphone look good.

Of course we can look at history for a good example of all this. If anyone remembers the original apple microsoft battle. Apple had the closed system that was harder to develop for while microsoft welcomed developer of all sorts and we know how that battle in the 90s went down. Of course right now the battle is really being fought between apple and google where google now has the incredibly open platform.

Whatever happens it will be interesting to see how this move affects the market.

Edit: Here is a good link about this
http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/09/is-steve-jobs-ignoring-history-or-trying-to-rewrite-it/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:01 pm

ApockofFork wrote:Apple had the closed system that was harder to develop for while microsoft welcomed developer of all sorts and we know how that battle in the 90s went down.

That battle had jack-all to do with how hard the systems were to develop for and everything to do with how easy it was to obtain hardware for the systems. Given that smartphones are closed hardware systems the parallels aren't much help in predicting the outcome.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:27 pm

Skrying wrote:Your last sentence says it all. You still see this as an issue that only hurts Adobe. It hurts you, it hurts smaller developers, it hurts everyone. This isn't just an issue with regard to Apple anymore. It's a greater issue that impacts society because people think the way you are right now. This about consumers demanding better from products they pay for. It's the most important step in capitalism working. The consumer must be an advocate for themselves because corporations won't.

You're going to have to spell it out for me. I don't see how it hurts me. It's not going to be because there's not an app to do what I want to do with my device; they're usually there in triplicate or more.

If I can't find an app to do something I need to do with the device, I'll abandon the platform. If consumers in general can't find what they want at a price they're willing to pay, they'll also abandon the platform. Developers know this.

I no longer argue "pro-Apple" because I've come to realize they're not anything super awesome as a company ethically. I'm not really taking Apple's side. I think Flash disappearing will, in the long term, cause much more good than harm to the consumer.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:08 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:You're going to have to spell it out for me. I don't see how it hurts me. It's not going to be because there's not an app to do what I want to do with my device; they're usually there in triplicate or more.

If I can't find an app to do something I need to do with the device, I'll abandon the platform. If consumers in general can't find what they want at a price they're willing to pay, they'll also abandon the platform. Developers know this.

I no longer argue "pro-Apple" because I've come to realize they're not anything super awesome as a company ethically. I'm not really taking Apple's side. I think Flash disappearing will, in the long term, cause much more good than harm to the consumer.


With these changes developers who currently use these frameworks to provide their applications on multiple platforms will have some choices to make. There's two main choices, though, that determine the rest. Those are stick with developing for multiple platforms or abandon the platform(s).

Developing for multiple platforms:
1.) Hire more talent. Reasoning would be to maintain the current pace of development. This clearly increases costs for the developer and given that very few of the developers on the App Store are actually making the millions people seem to think (not saying you're one of those) this likely results in the burden of this increased cost being placed on the customer. So; higher prices for you.

2.) Spreading existing talent. Keeps costs the same as before. Almost certainly results in a slower pace of development. This means an inferior application. It will take the studio more time on coding identically functioning applications instead of improving a singular application. So; inferior application for you to use compared to what would have been possible with the previous Apple rules.

Abandon Multiplatform Development:
A development studio will likely choose, if they go this route, to stick with the iPhone OS platform given its access to a very large audience. Which in the short term may not mean a lot to you besides the obvious delay required in rewriting the application to fit Apple's new rules. In the long term, however, this hampers competition. Android, Windows Phone 7, Blackberry, etc, etc having at least some form of success actually benefits you. This is the entire argument behind capitalism anyway, competition benefits the consumer. If Apple gets even greater portions of the market it is hard to predict what they might do. History shows though, and let Microsoft be an example, that companies with monopolies tend to not act in a manner that is best for their customers.

So; say Android users no longer have access to the apps they need due to these rule changes done by Apple. Developers were forced to make the choice, they picked the larger audience. Android goes away. Apple gains more control. Apple drives up prices. You're hurt.

You see how this is all bad for you? I've never argued in terms of the developers. Yes they're hurt in all the above scenarios but my point is you are too. That's why people should complain and not support this change. It is especially offensive considering that these changes are after the fact of purchase. Someone who bought an iPhone 3GS can not unbuy that phone. In needing to upgrade it to the new version of iPhone OS they've effectively had their device go backward in features. In addition the other features such as the pseudo-multitasking in iPhone OS 4 are still possible with these third party frameworks as shown by Apple using Tap Tap Revenge during the iPhone OS 4 demonstration.

Why shouldn't people be upset about this? Especially people who already owned an iPhone or iPod Touch? It seems to me they're being perfectly reasonable. In fact I see it as a consumers job and right to be upset about these changes. This is how we get better products. Technology and the need to update software has created something quite unique. A product you bought in the past can be changed by the manufacturer you purchased it from. It is our responsibility to be extremely diligent in protecting ourselves. This goes far beyond Apple or Adobe or the developers of Tap Tag Revenge. It's about the basic functionality of how we interact with all companies. People shouldn't be apathetic about this and they especially shouldn't be supportive of any company who institutes such changes as these to the device, devices that have already been purchased!
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:15 pm

Knowing how Agility is now the buzz word in business, If this article has some truth to it then Apple DOES know whats best for the consumer.

http://stevecheney.posterous.com/the-ge ... l-platform

Hmm, but then again there will always be those naysayers. :roll:
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:22 pm

Skyring, if smartphones and iPods weren't luxury devices, I'd get it. If you were talking about food I'd be worried. You're not talking about necessities. If Apple and the vendors on the platform fail to do what I expect from the device, I'll leave the device. In an ecosystem so large, we are not in any way, shape, or form going to see the death of other platforms that aren't already weak (Palm). The cell phone industry is large enough that there will never be just one choice.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:34 pm

Cell phones for most people these days are required items. Increasingly smartphones are becoming the required type of phone. Similar words were spoken, I'm sure, in the 80s.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:42 pm

Skrying wrote:Cell phones for most people these days are required items. Increasingly smartphones are becoming the required type of phone. Similar words were spoken, I'm sure, in the 80s.


Says who? You? Yeah that means much. Cell phones are a luxury item. And smartphones even more of a luxury item. Now if there was a time where land lines dont exist then, sure. But thats only in bizarro world.

You guys talk of Consumer Rights about a luxury item whereas its treated like a gold plated and heated toilet seat. Theres no Consumer Rights for this luxury as there are alternatives.

Like I said before and I will say it again, you hate on Apple because they provide a product that you want but your not willing to evaluate the trade offs. Instead you buy said Apple product and b*tch about it and whose blame? Yourself. But then again you probably would by an Android and complain that they have no app store like Apple. :roll:
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:58 pm

When this many people own cell phones they're not longer a luxury item. They're replacing land lines at a rapid pace. Smartphones are making up a increasingly large amount of the cell phone market. People see not just cell phones but smartphones as required to keep up with their busy lives. They're tools for people.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:04 pm

tanker27 wrote:Cell phones are a luxury item.
Jesus Christ. :-?
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:23 pm

Skrying wrote:When this many people own cell phones they're not longer a luxury item. They're replacing land lines at a rapid pace. Smartphones are making up a increasingly large amount of the cell phone market. People see not just cell phones but smartphones as required to keep up with their busy lives. They're tools for people.



Umm that article specifically talks about TEENS! So tell me, Outside of a purely business need how cellphones are not a luxury item? Do tell. :roll:
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:38 pm

tanker27 wrote:Umm that article specifically talks about TEENS! So tell me, Outside of a purely business need how cellphones are not a luxury item? Do tell. :roll:


If you go to the bottom of the article that page you'll see it breaks it down to young adults (18-29) and all adults. Those percentages are all the into the low 90s% for the young adults and still well into the 80% for all adults. Those are extremely high numbers. Even further I linked a second article that demonstrated the number of smartphones for all cell phones in the US (1 in 8 ) and that those numbers are growing, very rapidly.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:03 pm

Skrying wrote:Cell phones for most people these days are required items. Increasingly smartphones are becoming the required type of phone. Similar words were spoken, I'm sure, in the 80s.

Even if you're right (and I do not agree cell phones are a societal necessity), this API battle has nothing to do with the iPhone making phone calls. The iPhone will continue to make phone calls just fine (the purpose of a cell phone) regardless of what API the apps are running.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:06 pm

lordT wrote:The issue is that Apple is completely blocking any app which isn't written inc.

And by C your mean "Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine".

lordT wrote:This means any platform which lets the developer write code once and deploy for any platform is screwed. Need to build something that works on all mobile platforms? You're FUBARed. Write once for Android/Blackberry/rest and then rewrite the entire thing for the iPhone OS. It's completely counter productive and time consuming.

Go ahead then, ignore the iPhone OS platform.

lordT wrote:This doesn't just target Adobe. A number of successful platforms including Unity, Titanium, MonoTouch and a number of others fall into the cross hair too.

Bang on.

lordT wrote:They're just making counter-intuitive petty rules to hurt their developers.

It hurts the developers using the tools you mentioned. Developers that have been coding specifically for iPhone OS are smiling.

lordT wrote:
End User wrote:Apple is basically telling developers to stop being lazy and write real iPhone/iPad apps via Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript. I wish Apple did this earlier.
You're an idiot and you should shut up right now. You have no idea as to what the unholy **** you're talking about. Please, just shut up.

Whoa. Touchy.

Have you been hit by the changes to 3.3.1? If so, are you going to abandon the iPhone OS platform to improve your time management and productivity?
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:33 pm

Buub wrote:Even if you're right (and I do not agree cell phones are a societal necessity), this API battle has nothing to do with the iPhone making phone calls. The iPhone will continue to make phone calls just fine (the purpose of a cell phone) regardless of what API the apps are running.


This some weird form of strawman you're trying to make? The point of those numbers is that cell phones are no longer optional for most people and that increasingly due to the nature of people's lives (becoming increasingly buys) smartphones are becoming the preferred type of cell phone for many. Having less competition or worse products in the market place is the point. We don't want that. That's the point.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:41 pm

Skrying wrote:Having less competition or worse products in the market place is the point. We don't want that. That's the point.


Three years ago Apple was not in the smartphone market. Two years ago Google was not in the smartphone market. Recently we saw the announcement of Windows Phone 7 and Kin. Where is this lack of competition you speak of.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:58 pm

End User wrote:Three years ago Apple was not in the smartphone market. Two years ago Google was not in the smartphone market. Recently we saw the announcement of Windows Phone 7 and Kin. Where is this lack of competition you speak of.


Which is the entire point! We want each one of those options to grow and be strong. We want applications available on one to be available for the other and for them to be great and useful! That's the consumers dream! For each platform to be great and useful to the consumer for even the worst choice to still be very good. By Apple forcing developers to make a choice, a choice that helps no one but Apple, we're hurting those. You're making my argument for me.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:42 pm

Skrying wrote:
End User wrote:Three years ago Apple was not in the smartphone market. Two years ago Google was not in the smartphone market. Recently we saw the announcement of Windows Phone 7 and Kin. Where is this lack of competition you speak of.


Which is the entire point! We want each one of those options to grow and be strong. We want applications available on one to be available for the other and for them to be great and useful! That's the consumers dream! For each platform to be great and useful to the consumer for even the worst choice to still be very good. By Apple forcing developers to make a choice, a choice that helps no one but Apple, we're hurting those. You're making my argument for me.


The weak shall fail. Welcome to capitalism.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:51 pm

End User wrote:The weak shall fail. Welcome to capitalism.


The weak should fail from their own failure. You're also ignoring the role and influence of a vocal consumer base.
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Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:34 pm

Skrying wrote:The weak should fail from their own failure.

And the developers/companies that relied upon third party tools to port their code to iPhone OS are clearly on the "fail from their own failure" side of things.

Skrying wrote:You're also ignoring the role and influence of a vocal consumer base.

The only vocal consumer base I have heard lately is the 500,000+ people who have purchased iPads.
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