How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

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How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:31 pm

So I live in a 2 story house. New tenants are coming in and they want internet. I recently upgraded my wireless router so I have two routers now:

Netgear WNR3500L and a D-Link Dir-615.

Now, If I want to give my tenants internet through the Dlink, then what do I need to do? I need for them to have no access to my own network.

Simply connecting the DLink WAN port to my Netgear LAN port will make everything work or do I need to configure it more? Do I need to configure the DHCP on the DLink to give out ips on a different range to keep them from my network? Or is that not needed since my dlink will do NAT?
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sid1089
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:47 pm

I think you might have it flipped. You want to give them access to whatever router that is connected directly to the internet. Then connect the WAN side of the router that you are using for your network to one of the LAN ports on the one connected to the internet.

Even easier if they are going to access via wireless, does the WNR3500L support "guest" network access? My wndr3700 has this feature. If you have it, all you need to do is turn it on and give them the login info for the guest ssid.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:49 pm

The best solution (from an isolation standpoint) would be to get two public IP addresses from your ISP and put a switch in front of the two routers (but this is feasible only if your ISP allows you to have more than one public IP).

Second best would be mattsteg's recommendation, which will prevent them from accessing your network (but still allows you to access theirs).

Yet another option would be to get a third router. Hook the WAN port of one router to the ISP connection, and hook the WAN ports of each of the other two routers to a LAN port of the first router.

The downside of approaches that involve two levels of NAT (second and third options) is that any applications which require port forwarding are going to be a bit of a PITA to set up, since you'll need to configure the port forward on both routers.

You probably ought to consider potential legal ramifications as well. What you're proposing may technically be a violation of your ISP's TOS, especially if you are going to charge them for the Internet access (it is not uncommon for ISPs to have a "no reselling" TOS clause). Also, do you trust these tenants? If they do something illegal online, consumer routers don't keep detailed enough connection logs for you to prove that it was your tenants and not you. Last thing you want is for your tenants to do something that gets you slapped with an RIAA lawsuit, or even thrown in jail (e.g. child porn).
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:24 pm

The best bet with tenants is to have them order their own Internet connection, mostly for the reasons illucidated in JBI's last paragraph.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:29 pm

Yes, my 3500L does support a guest network. However, all my wireless clients are N clients. My tenants might be running G clients. I don't want my entire wireless network to drop to G speeds just because my tenant keeps a G laptop open.

Am I correct in assuming that a G client connected to the guest network will bring the whole wireless network down to G speeds?

We are not charging anything for the internet. My dad (unwisely) promised these tenants to provide internet. He had no idea about the technical or the legal consequences. He thought that the setup would be as simple as just giving them our WPA password. However, this is not specifically stated in the lease and we could just back out on the promise.

But I doubt they would be doing anything so illegal. They are a family of four, with two young kids. I am quite certain that they won't be doing child porn. And I do not think they have the technical expertise to even know about BitTorrent etc.

I did call up my isp, and it seems that they will grant me 2 IPs free of charge. I do have a 5 port 10/100 switch somewhere. But the power adaptor was broken. I'ma go try to hack something up.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:24 am

I'm actually dealing with a similar issue right now. I'm helping a friend setup internet access to two of their tenants. They have a building that's been split into basically two apartments with separate bath/bathroom/kitchen but I think legally the city considers it to be one address and in turn the ISP is being very stubborn about providing two separate accounts.

I read this link: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/l ... twoprivlan

Would that be the best way to go? Feed the cable modem into a router and then attach two additional routers to its LAN ports? I understand there are NAT and port forwarding issues but how much of an impact would this have? Anytime there is a port forwarding issue I know I'd be driving out there to correct it so I'd like to know what the best way to prepare would be.

With a double router setup, what types of applications/uses would have port forwarding issues? Browsing, XBOX Live, Netflix, Torrents, online games, etc.

Would it be best to disable DHCP on the independent routers, give them static IP's and then set the first upstream router to forward ports to those two downstream routers with DMZ? Do most routers DMZ settings allow fort forwarding to two specific IP's or am I limited to doing this to just one?
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:22 pm

FireGryphon wrote:The best bet with tenants is to have them order their own Internet connection, mostly for the reasons illucidated in JBI's last paragraph.


I beleieve this is the best solution.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:47 pm

tadaone wrote:
FireGryphon wrote:The best bet with tenants is to have them order their own Internet connection, mostly for the reasons illucidated in JBI's last paragraph.


I beleieve this is the best solution.


I'd set them up with a wireless-extender using WPA2 that uses its own password. Easy enough. And make them pay the $80 for it. Charge them what you want beyond it.

Are all of you insisting he not make money on his time and efforts? If someone wants to use his Internet, he should make a profit, or at least wipe out the fees. Advertise it as a feature if not, otherwise, they should pay something for access.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:36 pm

computron9000 wrote:Are all of you insisting he not make money on his time and efforts? If someone wants to use his Internet, he should make a profit, or at least wipe out the fees. Advertise it as a feature if not, otherwise, they should pay something for access.
By doing so he may be violating the TOS from his ISP -- ie, he's making himself an unauthorized reseller of his ISP's services. He may also be making himself an ISP, depending on the laws where he is, and subject to whatever regulations that entails.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:06 am

UberGerbil wrote:
computron9000 wrote:Are all of you insisting he not make money on his time and efforts? If someone wants to use his Internet, he should make a profit, or at least wipe out the fees. Advertise it as a feature if not, otherwise, they should pay something for access.
By doing so he may be violating the TOS from his ISP -- ie, he's making himself an unauthorized reseller of his ISP's services. He may also be making himself an ISP, depending on the laws where he is, and subject to whatever regulations that entails.


yes
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:26 am

Yes, in state capitalist USSA, America with a K, you need government authorization and licenses to resell something you paid for and is already regulated enough. And here I thought our country was about liberty, and the sovereign individual. Anyway, this is nothing DD-WRT can't solve, and what the gov. doesn't know can't hurt you.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:11 am

l33t-g4m3r wrote:Yes, in state capitalist USSA, America with a K, you need government authorization and licenses to resell something you paid for and is already regulated enough. And here I thought our country was about liberty, and the sovereign individual. Anyway, this is nothing DD-WRT can't solve, and what the gov. doesn't know can't hurt you.

IMO he's a lot more likely to run afoul of his ISP's TOS than any sort of government regulations. In Illinois (at least), I'm fairly certain that it is not illegal, as my ISP even used to have a plan that explicitly allowed you to resell bandwidth to your neighbors or tenants (they'd give you extra e-mail addresses for the people you were reselling to).
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:10 am

just brew it! wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:Yes, in state capitalist USSA, America with a K, you need government authorization and licenses to resell something you paid for and is already regulated enough. And here I thought our country was about liberty, and the sovereign individual. Anyway, this is nothing DD-WRT can't solve, and what the gov. doesn't know can't hurt you.

IMO he's a lot more likely to run afoul of his ISP's TOS than any sort of government regulations. In Illinois (at least), I'm fairly certain that it is not illegal, as my ISP even used to have a plan that explicitly allowed you to resell bandwidth to your neighbors or tenants (they'd give you extra e-mail addresses for the people you were reselling to).

Maybe, but if you have to ask permission, then you are not free. The ISP shouldn't have the ability to dictate what you do with your connection, otherwise who's the boss?
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:18 am

l33t-g4m3r wrote:Maybe, but if you have to ask permission, then you are not free. The ISP shouldn't have the ability to dictate what you do with your connection, otherwise who's the boss?

The ISP still needs to be able to deal with abusive behavior that adversely affects their network though. If you've paid for a plan with a 20 GB download cap, and start downloading 200 GB a month, they're perfectly within their rights to throttle your bandwidth or insist that you upgrade to a more expensive plan.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say you start reselling bandwidth to your tenants. One of them starts downloading movie torrents 24x7, making the entire connection horribly laggy for you and your other tenants. If you tell them to knock it off or you're going to cut off their Internet, aren't you "dictating what they do with their connection"?

But as long as you're staying within the stated TOS, I agree -- you should just have an unfiltered, unmolested bit pipe to the Internet.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:45 am

just brew it! wrote:One of them starts downloading movie torrents 24x7, making the entire connection horribly laggy for you and your other tenants.
Isn't that what the pirates, spammers and Netflix are doing to the whole internet? :x
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:10 pm

The best solution is without a doubt to have them on an independent internet connection, but if you're already set on connection sharing then I would suggest trying the gargoyle router firmware based on open wrt. http://www.gargoyle-router.com/
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:17 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
just brew it! wrote:One of them starts downloading movie torrents 24x7, making the entire connection horribly laggy for you and your other tenants.
Isn't that what the pirates, spammers and Netflix are doing to the whole internet? :x

You leave my Netflix out of this. :p
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:17 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:Maybe, but if you have to ask permission, then you are not free. The ISP shouldn't have the ability to dictate what you do with your connection, otherwise who's the boss?

Neither you nor your ISP are the boss. The contract is the boss, and if you sign the form, agreeing to the terms of the contract, then you perform to the contract or you go home.

This is not about the government or anyone else infringing on your rights to be wild and free and feel the wind through your hair or wtfever. This is about a contract, and a contract implies good faith on behalf of both parties. Kind of a partnership. You do what the contract says, the other party does what the contract says, you both get what you want and you both walk away happy. If either party acts in contradiction to the terms of the contract, then remedies (often spelled out in the contract) are invoked. Real simple. As long as it's a legal contract, neither federal, state, nor municipal law has anything to do with it.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:45 am

just brew it! wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:Yes, in state capitalist USSA, America with a K, you need government authorization and licenses to resell something you paid for and is already regulated enough. And here I thought our country was about liberty, and the sovereign individual. Anyway, this is nothing DD-WRT can't solve, and what the gov. doesn't know can't hurt you.

IMO he's a lot more likely to run afoul of his ISP's TOS than any sort of government regulations. In Illinois (at least), I'm fairly certain that it is not illegal, as my ISP even used to have a
plan that explicitly allowed you to resell bandwidth to your neighbors or tenants (they'd give you extra e-mail addresses for the people you were reselling to).


Absolutely.

And the same goes for people that run web servers over port 80 on their "home" version of their ISP. Many ISPs will block port 80 traffic, in effect censoring or stopping you from running a web site. Many people break that generic contract by having servers on other ports or do different things.

ISPs want to shut down port 80 traffic that is within their network on home accounts. They also want to stop businesses that do so, if they don't pay inflated fees.

It's a mess.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:17 am

I know you're trying to do a good thing, but I say stay away from it. One way to do it would be to have them sign up for DSL if you are using cable or vice-versa. Or get fixed wireless or another type of internet service that is independent of yours, and have it in their name.
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:51 am

computron9000 wrote:And the same goes for people that run web servers over port 80 on their "home" version of their ISP. Many ISPs will block port 80 traffic, in effect censoring or stopping you from running a web site. Many people break that generic contract by having servers on other ports or do different things.

ISPs want to shut down port 80 traffic that is within their network on home accounts. They also want to stop businesses that do so, if they don't pay inflated fees.

It's a mess.

Yup. And about to get messier as we run out of IPv4 addresses -- this will put more pressure on ISPs to put all of their residential customers behind NAT routers.

On the upside, virtual servers have gotten stupidly cheap, so people who really want to "roll their own" hosting still have an option. Starting from about $11 a month you can rent a VM with full root access and static IP at a provider like Rackspace. I'm not talking just a virtual web host either; this is a full virtualized server that you have full control of (install anything you want).
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Re: How to supply internet to downstairs tenants?

Postposted on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:51 am

just brew it! wrote:Yup. And about to get messier as we run out of IPv4 addresses -- this will put more pressure on ISPs to put all of their residential customers behind NAT routers.
I had to troubleshoot an issue at an ISP in Italy doing that back about 5 years ago as part of my day job. I'm seeing more ISPs and equipment vendors talking about Carrier Grade NAT support in the past year. Things are definitely heading in that direction.
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