Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

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Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:13 am

I want to keep my 40D as a backup, but upgrade to a new primary body in a month or so as I'm running into significant limitations in low light. Notably, the default ISO range caps at 1600 and the H1 expansion to 3200 is so noisy as to be worthless for what I do. The 7D includes pretty much everything I would like in a camera body right now, but the $1500+ price scares my wallet so badly that it doesn't come out from under the bed for several hours.

My 40D is 10mp, which puts a ceiling on my printing abilities (after cropping) at around 8x10 optimal, or 11x14 in a pinch. I would like to get usable prints at 16x20. I use remote shutter release quite a bit, and achieved this on the 40D with a third-party battery grip that includes an infrared remote. I'm not a videographer and have no aspirations of becoming one, so the HD video capabilities of the 60D and 7D are not selling points for me. Also, I like the control layout on the 40D and would like to keep it on my next camera, so the 60D is out regardless.

I've thrown out the otherwise-ideal 60D for the control layout and reduced build quality. I want the 7D badly but am thinking the 50D -- which routinely sells used for as low as $700-800 -- might actually do the trick more efficiently. No remote shutter release on the 50D, unfortunately, but it would share batteries with my 40D and hopefully meet my low-light needs: ISO-3200, plus H1 and H2 expansion available.

So basically, it's either a 50D sooner, or a 7D later (i.e. after saving more money toward the purchase). Anyone want to throw down a recommendation one way or the other?
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:09 am

If you're just looking for slightly better high-ISO images, I think either would provide roughly the same incremental upgrade to your 40D. For that alone I'd suggest the 50D, assuming no other features of the 7D are significantly tempting. If you have stuff to shoot right now, why put it off? :D

Out of curiosity, what lens(es) do you tend to use for your low-light work? You going about with a prime or twain, or a wide-aperture zoom?
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:29 am

If it's noise you're concerned with, the 7D wipes the floor with the 50D. The 50D is actually worse than the 40D in terms of noise, and is pretty much the same as the 40D in every other respect, except for having a slightly higher-resolution sensor (which accounts for the worse noise). If you want an inexpensive noise upgrade, get a 550D or a 600D. Those are basically 7D parts in a Rebel body. I prefer the 7D's tactile feel and ergonomics to the smaller, lighter Rebel bodies, and I also think the pictures from the 7D are a bit richer with a bit more depth, but if I had to buy a camera today based on sensor noise and features, I'd seriously consider the 600D over the 7D and bury my money in lenses. That's saying a lot; I absolutely adore my 7D, but at half the price, the 550D and 600D are mighty attractive.

Note that with the 7D you'll have a nice learning curve to tackle even if you know DSLRs. I learned the 7D and can get some sweet pictures from it, but it took practice. The 7D is a lot of camera with a lot of potential if you're serious about using it. If you just pick it up and shoot it performs worse than other cameras. I'm not sure why that is, but it is certainly true. Also note that the lenses you use or plan to use can help your decision. The 7D needs good lenses in order to take advantage of its superior picture quality. For example, the difference between using my EF 70-300 f/4.5-5.6 IS and a 70-200L is like night and day. The former is muddy and dull by comparison on my 7D, but it's a bit harder to tell on other bodies (though, clearly, there's still a difference). Basically, if you don't have or don't plan to buy the best lenses (L or not) the 7D is a bit of a waste.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:24 am

There's just not enough improvement from the EOS 40D to the 50D to justify purchasing a new camera body. If you really need better low light sensitivity, you'll want one of the newer camera models.

EOS Rebel T3i pricing
EOS 7D pricing
EOS 5D Mk. II pricing

The best deal is to get a unit directly from Canon through the Canon Loyalty Program.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:21 am

I salivate over the 5D mk II (and it's 100% waterproof, so it can take it). Definitely worth the price for FF, though.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 am

If I were inclined to upgrade from my EOS 40D, I would get the EOS 5D Mark II. Of course, that would also require at least one new lens purchase... :D
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:08 am

EF 24-70 f/2.8L? :D
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:52 am

Yes, the full frame EOS 5D Mark II would want either the 24-70/2.8L or the 24-105/4L IS and the 35/1.4L to take the place of the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM that I use the most on the EOS 40D.

Fortunately for Ludi, the larger sensor also does extremely well in low light.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:43 pm

SPOOFE wrote:Out of curiosity, what lens(es) do you tend to use for your low-light work? You going about with a prime or twain, or a wide-aperture zoom?

I currently have the following zooms: Tokina 12-24mm f/4, Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8, Tokina 80-200mm f/2.8
...and the following primes: Canon EF 28mm f/1.8, Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon EF 85mm f/1.8

The 28mm and the 85mm get used the most in low light, but only the Tokina UWAZ stays in the bag unless doing timed exposures.

FireGryphon wrote:If it's noise you're concerned with, the 7D wipes the floor with the 50D. The 50D is actually worse than the 40D in terms of noise, and is pretty much the same as the 40D in every other respect, except for having a slightly higher-resolution sensor (which accounts for the worse noise)....The 7D needs good lenses in order to take advantage of its superior picture quality. For example, the difference between using my EF 70-300 f/4.5-5.6 IS and a 70-200L is like night and day. The former is muddy and dull by comparison on my 7D, but it's a bit harder to tell on other bodies (though, clearly, there's still a difference). Basically, if you don't have or don't plan to buy the best lenses (L or not) the 7D is a bit of a waste.

Hmm...so the 50D really offers no benefits for me, then.

JustAnEngineer wrote:There's just not enough improvement from the EOS 40D to the 50D to justify purchasing a new camera body. If you really need better low light sensitivity, you'll want one of the newer camera models.
EOS Rebel T3i pricing
EOS 7D pricing
EOS 5D Mk. II pricing
he best deal is to get a unit directly from Canon through the Canon Loyalty Program.

I'll take a look at the loyalty program and see what they offer. Unfortunately the Rebels are definitely out for the same reasons as the 60D: right hardware, wrong control configuration. And I cannot afford to go full-frame at the hobby level, as the body is a $2-3k purchase and it narrows the selection of lenses too much -- the ones that are good enough to avoid serious IQ problems on a full-frame sensor are mostly $800+.

So I think the answer is...no matter which way I poke at this, I'm ending up with a 7D. Guess I'll have to save and salivate for another month or two. What annoys me is that it looks like the cheapest retail price after the Canon instant rebate expires today (3/19) might be $1700. Amazon had been holding it at $1500 for several months but they might just shoot up, as well.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:38 am

There's the option of getting a few flash units and dealing with poor lighting that way. It's a whole 'nother chore, though, and your preferred work may or may not benefit from it. But for the price of a 7D, you could probably find three or four very powerful and reliable flash units, along with one of several options for sync, and stands, and mounts, and a bunch of other little doodads that quickly take up space in whatever bag you originally thought would be large enough to hold it all.

:D
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:15 pm

SPOOFE wrote:There's the option of getting a few flash units and dealing with poor lighting that way. It's a whole 'nother chore, though, and your preferred work may or may not benefit from it. But for the price of a 7D, you could probably find three or four very powerful and reliable flash units, along with one of several options for sync, and stands, and mounts, and a bunch of other little doodads that quickly take up space in whatever bag you originally thought would be large enough to hold it all.

:D

True, and I do have one 550ex right now. I've been keeping an eye out for a second unit, unfortunately they tend to hit $225 and up on both eBay and Craigslist, so I haven't sprung for one. So far I haven't done any dedicated event photography where I could actually set up all that kind of get-up, just stuff for friends where I happened to be there and have the equipment, so I gave it the old college try. Also, I do a lot of timed night exposures and some of them have been almost too noisy to be saved on account of poor ambient light intersecting at cross purposes with a need for a reasonable depth-of-field.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:56 pm

Yeah, a flash for event photography is pretty distracting; no matter what you do, people are gonna get dazed by the sudden surge in lighting, even if you're bouncing off a wall or a ceiling.

But long nighttime exposures actually help. You don't necessarily need multiple units or synchronization, for instance. Set your camera on your tripod, time it for ten seconds (or whatever you want), and then start manually triggering the flash, holding it in your hand and pointing it all over the scene. Multiple pops stack up, and you can light a pretty huge area if you have a good recycle time. There are pros and cons, of course: The lighting winds up very "unnatural" (it's very full, and unless you deliberately stand in a single spot it can confuse the eye about where the light source may be), and you can only light a space that's within forty-sixty feet, AND your multiple pops can attract a lot of attention (probably a negative if you're near any dwellings, irrelevant out in the middle of nowhere). Plus you have to be careful; you need to find the right angle of incidence to avoid near objects getting too much light. However, it's something you can play with using only your current gear, and it can be fun as hell killing a couple hours if ya feel like it.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:13 pm

ludi wrote:What annoys me is that it looks like the cheapest retail price after the Canon instant rebate expires today (3/19) might be $1700. Amazon had been holding it at $1500 for several months but they might just shoot up, as well.

Huh...the instant rebate expired, so what is the result? The new list price of the 7D body kit is now $1479 at both Adorama and Amazon. Both, however, are backordered. Meanwhile B&H, Mike's Camera, etc. did jump back to $1699.

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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:19 pm

Canon has rebates, but a stipulation of the rebate is that it must be taken off of the MSRP. Essentially, this makes their sales, um, not really sales.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:31 am

Unfortunately as soon as Adorama and Amazon got their restock shipments, they also jumped to $1700 :evil:

Looks like I'm either buying used or waiting for the next rebate/sale/whatchamacallit. I guess I could finally get a real tripod in the meantime...
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:36 am

Nikon's prices have also jumped. I wonder how long their factories will be closed.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:32 am

I was reasonably sure that I was going to be buying a Canon DSLR in the near future, but this guy(Ken Rockwell) has made me think I should get the Nikon D7000 instead.

Does anyone have any reasons that might bring me back to the Canon fold?

For the sake of discussion, I'll quote a few things that have moved me towards the Nikon D7000.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d7000.htm

The D7000 is Nikon's most advanced camera at any price. The fact that it sells for $1,200 make it a no-brainer, which is why it's sold out. The D7000 is Nikon's best DSLR ever.

Among the many things I love about the D7000, in addition to how much better and faster it handles than any other Nikon DSLR (and I also own a professional Nikon D3), is that the pictures I make with the D7000 simply look better than what I've ever gotten with any other digital camera. The effects are subtle, but as a prolific photographer, I see that the colors are simply better, especially under difficult light under which my D3 just doesn't look as good.

Unlike 2009's crappy D3000, Nikon really did their homework these past couple of years on the D7000, and everything about it just works better than older cameras, technically, artistically and ergonomically.

The D7000 has the highest linear resolution of any Nikon DSLR, and more overall resolution than any other Nikon under $7,500. The Nikon D7000 has technical performance better than every other Nikon DSLR priced under $7,500, and handles better than any Nikon DSLR, regardless of price.


The D7000 has the world's first 2,016-segment RGB meter, which is Nikon's first upgrade since the spectacular 1,005 segment RGB meter of the Nikon F5 of 1996.

The number of meter segments isn't relevant; what is relevant is the intelligence programmed behind them, and Nikon's meters have always been decades ahead of anyone else's.

Canon still has no full-color RGB meters in any of its SLRs; most of Canon's cameras, like the 5D Mark II, still only meter in black-and-white!


One of the biggest stand-out features of the Nikon D7000 is its fantastic autofocus system.

Whatever Nikon has done under the hood has made it the best, fastest, most precise and most accurate focus system of any Nikon.

This becomes more apparent as you've shot more cameras for longer; it's a subtle thing, but something I very much notice.

It feels about the same or better than my professional Nikon D3, and worlds faster in actual use than my Nikon D300.


Manual focus is spectacular: it has a precise three-way indictor like the D3X for exact manual focus, not the pathetically useless (for fast lenses) one-dot indictor of the D300s. All three dots ( > o < ) are green.

Not only is it precise, I tried my D7000 with a 58mm f/1.2 Noct-NIKKOR, and it was right-on shooting at f/1.2, even more accurate than my D3, on which that lens demands a slight offset.

Mit der Noct, the Nikon D7000 is the world's most sensitive low-light camera.


Overall

The D7000 feels like the fastest Nikon DSLR I've ever used, which means it is.

The D7000 just goes, with no delay at all for focus and shooting. Chasing my kids around, it never gets in the way, seemingly even faster then my professional D3.

By faster, I'm not talking about static frames-per-second; I'm talking about how fast everything locks-on and fires in the course of real-world photography. With the D7000, it's almost scary how fast and effortlessly every picture takes itself, even with flash.

The D7000 is fast, quiet, and well, just snaps faster than any other camera.


The D7000 has more linear resolution than any Nikon DSLR, including the D3X. The D7000 will make immediately apparent any limitations in your lenses and in your photo technique. If you can't get sharp pictures with a D7000, it's your fault, not the camera's.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Ken Rockwell is a Nikon goon and a bit of a wack job. Until recently, he argued that the D40 was better than any other camera ever made. Like a shock radio jock, he drives hits to his website by intentionally being outrageous and controversial.

In my opinion, Nikon makes good cameras from the mid-range (D90) up. For comparable performance, you're going to pay more for Nikon gear than for Canon gear.

Since Ludi already has a significant investment in Canon lenses and equipment, there's no reason for him to switch to Nikon.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:41 pm

Each of Nikon and Canon have people who they pay (in either money or equipment) to maintain photography web sites and pimp their equipment. Ken Rockwell is one of the guys paid to sing praise of Nikon equipment. It's funny to watch them switch sides, too. One guy (from the Netherlands, I think) had a very well respected website that lauded how great Canon cameras was, but one day he shut down his site and opened up a Nikon one and instead of praising Canon and destroying Nikon, he began to do the opposite.

The low down is that both Nikon and Canon gear is pretty good. Canon is less expensive but just as high quality, and depending on the camera, sometimes much better quality. You really need to read a bunch of websites (that are paid off by both companies) and then use the equipment before you can know which is best for you.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:13 pm

Until recently, he argued that the D40 was better than any other camera ever made.

Ken gets a bum rap with assertions like this; his argument for the D40 is very specific and comes with a host of caveats, and is targeted at casual users or beginners. He tends to stress buying a cheaper, good-enough body and spending more money on lenses.

Ken Rockwell is one of the guys paid to sing praise of Nikon equipment.

How do you know this? He claims to receive no money from Nikon and makes a living off the ads on his site, so I'm curious where this "insider information" comes from.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:27 pm

ludi wrote:I want to keep my 40D as a backup, but upgrade to a new primary body in a month or so as I'm running into significant limitations in low light. Notably, the default ISO range caps at 1600 and the H1 expansion to 3200 is so noisy as to be worthless for what I do. The 7D includes pretty much everything I would like in a camera body right now, but the $1500+ price scares my wallet so badly that it doesn't come out from under the bed for several hours.
...
So basically, it's either a 50D sooner, or a 7D later (i.e. after saving more money toward the purchase). Anyone want to throw down a recommendation one way or the other?

I upgraded from a 40D to 7D. Very happy with the 7D. Sadly, I haven't had time lately for a lot of photography but I'd recommend the 7D over the 50D.
Right now the prices are a little on the steep side though due to the Japan disaster.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:11 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:Ken Rockwell is a Nikon goon and a bit of a wack job. Until recently, he argued that the D40 was better than any other camera ever made. Like a shock radio jock, he drives hits to his website by intentionally being outrageous and controversial.

In my opinion, Nikon makes good cameras from the mid-range (D90) up. For comparable performance, you're going to pay more for Nikon gear than for Canon gear.

If you read his Canon reviews, he is pretty complimentary of them and often mentions how he has friends who are ALL Canon.

One of the reasons I was thinking of the D7000 was the 6FPS continuous shooting speed, which in my view makes it more of an all rounder than same priced Canons. The 7D matches the D7000 in continuous shooting speed, but it is a fair amount more expensive.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:28 pm

Ludi's existing EOS 40D shoots 6 frames/second... until the buffer fills up. After that, you start regretting purchasing the cheaper CF cards instead of the SanDisk extreme stuff.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:16 pm

Actually I just checked and the 7D shoots 8 fps, so it does more than match the D7000 in that regard.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:17 am

The deed is done: grabbed a lightly-used 7D body kit on eBay this weekend. A hair over $1400 including shipping. Would not have killed me to wait a little longer, but everyone here and elsewhere seems to agree that the 7D has a bit of a learning curve, and I'd like to have lots of practice time before the summer hiking season gets here.
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Re: Next dSLR: Canon 50D or Canon 7D?

Postposted on Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:47 pm

Congrats, Ludi! 'Tis the curse of photography; you can tell yourself you can wait, or should wait, but that just means less stuff to shoot with your new gear. I can't wait to see what you do with it.
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