TR Forums

Wed May 11, 2011 7:15 pm

What make you believe that you need 2 ms response time?

2 ms = 0.002 seconds

1 frame / 0.002 seconds = 500 frames / second

60 frames / second = 1 / 16.7 ms

There is no application associated with human vision that requires 500 frames per second refresh. The 8 ms response time of the UltraSharp U2311H is fast enough for gaming.

Airmantharp · Wed May 11, 2011 7:59 pm

...or any IPS panel. Side by side, I see no difference between my 3ms TN and my 8ms IPS, except that the IPS ghosts less in dark areas (or doesn't ghost at all, really).

BlackStar, pull your head out. Even CRTs had phosphor trails, so any decent LCD that's <10ms is going to be comparable. No, you don't need a higher refresh rate, CRTs were run at 85Hz to keep them from blinking us blind!

Banding/dithering? Really? No, actually. Yes they do it, no it doesn't matter. Viewing angles? Did you intend on reading text or playing games at 60 or 70 degrees off angle? No? Then shove it. Modern TN panels have noticeably lower viewing angles than CRTs/IPS LCDs, yet they are far broader than can be made useful on a desktop. Please take your soap box somewhere else.

bthylafh · Wed May 11, 2011 8:29 pm

NERD RAEG IN THIS THREAD

ludi · Thu May 12, 2011 12:55 am

I used a 22" 16:10 TN panel as my primary monitor until late last year, when photo editing finally forced my hand. Now I have a 22" 16:9 IPS. While it is superior in all the ways described, the only application where I need it is...photo editing. Otherwise, I could switch back to TN and get along with it just fine (and still do when using my Acer 1810TZ on the road).

DancinJack · Thu May 12, 2011 1:02 am

bthylafh wrote:
NERD RAEG IN THIS THREAD

You say that as if there was any other outcome possible. A thread about monitors, at TR? We all knew how this was going to go.

Airmantharp · Thu May 12, 2011 2:39 am

DancinJack wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
NERD RAEG IN THIS THREAD

You say that as if there was any other outcome possible. A thread about monitors, at TR? We all knew how this was going to go.

Yeap, it's something we're passionate about! That and I try to assist a fellow serviceman whenever possible, in this case by trying to cut through some ignorant FUD both from newer forum members and from general technology misconceptios played up by marketing departments.

Acer 27" on Newegg for $310 sounds good to me; had it been available when I purchased my Hanns-G for the same amount, I may very well have gone that route.

BlackStar · Thu May 12, 2011 3:42 am

Airmantharp wrote:
BlackStar, pull your head out. Even CRTs had phosphor trails, so any decent LCD that's <10ms is going to be comparable. No, you don't need a higher refresh rate, CRTs were run at 85Hz to keep them from blinking us blind!

Are you an idiot? I am arguing that 60Hz is FINE, go back and re-read what I wrote.

Banding/dithering? Really? No, actually. Yes they do it, no it doesn't matter.

Your opinion. Some people find banding distracting and ugly. My coworker used to have a desktop background with a large radial gradient, which looks atrocious on his TN monitor.

Viewing angles? Did you intend on reading text or playing games at 60 or 70 degrees off angle? No? Then shove it.

I rotate my monitor 90deg for programming. Can you do that on your precious TN panel? No? Then shove it.

Modern TN panels have noticeably lower viewing angles than CRTs/IPS LCDs, yet they are far broader than can be made useful on a desktop. Please take your soap box somewhere else.

If you are happy with your TN panel, fine, but accept that there are better solutions out there.

Airmantharp · Thu May 12, 2011 6:27 am

BlackStar wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
BlackStar, pull your head out. Even CRTs had phosphor trails, so any decent LCD that's <10ms is going to be comparable. No, you don't need a higher refresh rate, CRTs were run at 85Hz to keep them from blinking us blind!

Are you an idiot? I am arguing that 60Hz is FINE, go back and re-read what I wrote. You were arguing that LCDs are too slow. I'm arguing that you're a bit mis-informed.

Banding/dithering? Really? No, actually. Yes they do it, no it doesn't matter.

Your opinion. Some people find banding distracting and ugly. My coworker used to have a desktop background with a large radial gradient, which looks atrocious on his TN monitor. Not all TNs are created equal! My Hanns-G is atrocious too, but my 6 year old Samsung 204b is WORLDS better.

Viewing angles? Did you intend on reading text or playing games at 60 or 70 degrees off angle? No? Then shove it.

I rotate my monitor 90deg for programming. Can you do that on your precious TN panel? No? Then shove it. Yes, yes you can, and MANY do. Does it limit the effective viewing angles? Sure. Does it matter? NO! You're sitting in front of it!

Modern TN panels have noticeably lower viewing angles than CRTs/IPS LCDs, yet they are far broader than can be made useful on a desktop. Please take your soap box somewhere else.

If you are happy with your TN panel, fine, but accept that there are better solutions out there. Please refer to the HP ZR30w in my signature, which sits on my desk. YES, I am aware that there are better solutions out there. And I'd still take a TN for 99.9% of computer applications. Hell, if such a thing existed as a 2560x1600 TN, I probably would have gotten that instead, though I'm glad I didn't now as I am getting into amateur photography.

My responses in bold italic. Thanks for playing.

tanker27 · Thu May 12, 2011 7:27 am

the whole viewing angle issue is a joke in my opinion. Hell, in the business place it would be considered a benefit as it would deter shoulder surfing. But for home.....really.....what could you possibly be doing off angle on a monitor?

bthylafh · Thu May 12, 2011 8:39 am

If you've got a big monitor, you'll notice TN color shifting even in normal usage. Dunno what size exactly that starts at, but certainly by 27".

BlackStar · Thu May 12, 2011 9:13 am

BlackStar wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
BlackStar, pull your head out. Even CRTs had phosphor trails, so any decent LCD that's <10ms is going to be comparable. No, you don't need a higher refresh rate, CRTs were run at 85Hz to keep them from blinking us blind!

Are you an idiot? I am arguing that 60Hz is FINE, go back and re-read what I wrote. You were arguing that LCDs are too slow. I'm arguing that you're a bit mis-informed.

My responses in bold italic. Thanks for playing.

Thank you for proving the range of your of mental abilities.

I said that I don't find LCD response times or 60Hz refresh rates a problem, even though I was coming from a high-quality CRT. There, can you understand that now? Thank you.

bthylafh wrote:
If you've got a big monitor, you'll notice TN color shifting even in normal usage. Dunno what size exactly that starts at, but certainly by 27".

Even at 24'', you can see a visible color shift between the top and bottom of the screen. The issue is even more pronounced on laptops, because (a) they tend to use lower quality panels and (b) your head tends to change its relative position more often. I have an 11.6'' dm1-3100ev where the issue is very visible and very annoying.

Thu May 12, 2011 9:15 am

It starts at 22"

On a good TN panel, the color is pretty even. But on the bad ones, even sitting in front of the screen shows color shifting around the edges. The problem is that good TN panels, save for color accuracy and vertical viewing angles, are actually pretty damn good. But bad TN panels (the majority, unfortunately) are the devil's work.

tanker27 wrote:
But for home.....really.....what could you possibly be doing off angle on a monitor?

As soon as I want to relax and sit farther back on my chair and prop my feet up, my monitor goes pretty dark, so I can't do it. There's the previous mention issue of color shifting in big screens too. Plus, even in a normal situation, there's the whole "look at this here" scenario with other people around the computer.

Thu May 12, 2011 9:27 am

The nasty TN color-shift and brightness change with viewing angle are especially annoying on my 15.4" laptop display. They are noticeable but usually tolerable for the NEC MultiSync EA241WM-BK on my desk at work.

Airmantharp · Thu May 12, 2011 9:35 am

My experience with the latest Acers, a 22" and a 23", was very positive, especially with respect to TN viewing angles. They definitely busted the trend. So yes, I've seen both ends of the recent TN spectrum (my Toshiba laptop with it's LED backlit display is also awful on viewing angles, but fine on color, so it's in the middle).

I'd have to see on the 27" Acer in person as to how it is affected by viewing angle issues, but I'd be willing to bet that it isn't an issue. You should lose some brightness off-angle, but as bright as TN screens can get I'm sure displaying something for another person will be fine.

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