Good sound without a discrete sound card

[riviera74]

Many modern motherboards (on desktops such as those with a Z68 chipset) have an SPDIF port attached for onboard audio output. Can you get good if not great sound from that port? If so, what speakers and/or headphones will actually attach to that port? I ask because that SPDIF port seems to be for a stereo system rather than any computer speakers available now.

[FireGryphon]

Any audio signal you listen to is going to start out as a digital signal, and then at some point become an analog signal so it can be heard through speakers or headphones. The only questions are 1) where do we convert the signal from digital to analog, and 2) how much money are we willing to spend to make the conversion as true as possible?

With a regular sound card the conversion happens on the motherboard. With SPDIF the signal gets sent out to a receiver and converted there. Motherboards are noisy electronic environments, so the quality of built-in sound kind of sucks. SPDIF allows the digital signal to be sent out of the case and into a receiver so it can be converted to an analog signal in a much less noisy environment which results in better sound quality. As you've learned, you pretty much need a receiver to use a digital output. A good compromise is getting a good sound card for the computer -- it's still in the noisy computer case, but it's elevated above the motherboard enough and shielded so that noise isn't as much of a problem. Something like the Xonar DG would be great for this.

To my knowledge there are no SPDIF headphones -- such headphones would need to have a digital-to-analog converter built into them and a power source to run them, making the design impractical. There are standalone speakers that you can hook up, and I think TR did a review of some a while back.

[just brew it!]

Also keep in mind that onboard sound is a lot better than it used to be 10, or even 5 years ago. Unless you're fairly picky about sound quality, the onboard analog outputs of your motherboard may actually be "good enough". I've been pretty happy with the onboard on most of the Asus motherboards I've bought over the past few years...

[riviera74]

Also keep in mind that onboard sound is a lot better than it used to be 10, or even 5 years ago. Unless you're fairly picky about sound quality, the onboard analog outputs of your motherboard may actually be "good enough". I've been pretty happy with the onboard on most of the Asus motherboards I've bought over the past few years...

So an Asus board, such as this one, has sound that is about equal to say a Xonar DG?


Also, what was that link to TechReport having an article on speakers that use SPDIF?

[MadManOriginal]

No, it won't be as good as a Xonar DG. If you can live with getting a PCI sound card that's cleary going to be the way to go, Newegg has it for $26-10 MIR=3 shipping right now and that makes it quite the bargain imo.

[arsenhazzard]

Also keep in mind that onboard sound is a lot better than it used to be 10, or even 5 years ago. Unless you're fairly picky about sound quality, the onboard analog outputs of your motherboard may actually be "good enough". I've been pretty happy with the onboard on most of the Asus motherboards I've bought over the past few years...

So an Asus board, such as this one, has sound that is about equal to say a Xonar DG?


Also, what was that link to TechReport having an article on speakers that use SPDIF?

For some subjective value of "about equal". It basically comes down to how much you, personally, can tell and whether you can justify the extra money spent on sound hardware.

Just to clarify a point, you don't need a receiver per se to convert the SPDIF signal to analog, you'll just need an amp and a DAC (digital-analog converter). There are plenty of those around for headphone use (every USB headset uses a built-in amp+DAC combo, but those are usually lower quality parts).

[ALiLPinkMonster]

You can always get one of the nicer Xbox headsets and use the optical connection. You're pretty limited on speakers though. I'd say just spend the money on a Xonar DG. Best of both worlds, really.

[just brew it!]

Also keep in mind that onboard sound is a lot better than it used to be 10, or even 5 years ago. Unless you're fairly picky about sound quality, the onboard analog outputs of your motherboard may actually be "good enough". I've been pretty happy with the onboard on most of the Asus motherboards I've bought over the past few years...

So an Asus board, such as this one, has sound that is about equal to say a Xonar DG?

For some subjective value of "about equal". It basically comes down to how much you, personally, can tell and whether you can justify the extra money spent on sound hardware.

Yeah, it is ultimately going to depend on your own ears and the quality of the speakers/headphones.

But in general, I'd say that if your primary use of your computer's audio is listening to MP3/OGG files or gaming, onboard is probably going to be good enough. OTOH if you've got a HTPC plugged into a decent amp and home theater speakers (or high-end headphones), or (especially) if you want to use the soundcard to record via the line or mic input, then investing in a discrete soundcard may be worthwhile.

I'm talking only relatively recent *desktop* motherboards from top-tier manufacturers like Asus, BTW. Off-brand motherboards, and laptops in general can still have some rather dodgy audio quality...

[riviera74]

The reason I ask about how much quality is in modern onboard audio is that I have been burned with onboard audio at least twice when I plug my current Altec Lansing 2.1 setup into the correct output port. Once I installed a SB Live! 24 card in, the issue resolved itself. Admittedly, the motherboard in question is six years old and it was a Realtek onboard sound chip.

Personally, I was afraid that onboard sound might still have issues. Moreover, I am surprised that because of discrete cards, there is no demand for quality onboard audio, whether it is playing any music at all or playing a DVD. I do find it strange that I only found USB headsets/headphones and USB speakers, but most are cheap and low quality (An exception is a $400 set from Bose, natch.).

You would think that somebody would make quality computer speakers that use SPDIF rather than USB, but apparently that is not the case.

[MadManOriginal]

You just need to look at sets that aren't 'computer speakers' is all. Computer speakers are generally boom-and-tizz low-end consumer sound quality anyway. It sounds like you've got a bit of a conflict going on between wanting good sound quality and not wanting to spend any money to get it. Nothing wrong with not buying something that won't provide a benefit but you need to decide where your priorities lie.

Here is an example of a monitor speaker with S/PDIF in - they have a built-in DAC. (I can't vouch for the sound quality although I can't imagine they are 'bad' and probably much better than most computer speakers although you won't get the exagerrated one-note boom of a typcial computer speaker set sub that seems exciting for movies and games.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3 ... _Watt.html

There are also plenty of moderately priced DACs meant for computer use, with either S/PDIF or USB input and RCA analog output. I doubt you'll find any of reasonable quality cheaper than the Xonar DG though, it really is a steal at under $20 after MIR.

[riviera74]

You just need to look at sets that aren't 'computer speakers' is all. Computer speakers are generally boom-and-tizz low-end consumer sound quality anyway. It sounds like you've got a bit of a conflict going on between wanting good sound quality and not wanting to spend any money to get it. Nothing wrong with not buying something that won't provide a benefit but you need to decide where your priorities lie.

Here is an example of a monitor speaker with S/PDIF in - they have a built-in DAC. (I can't vouch for the sound quality although I can't imagine they are 'bad' and probably much better than most computer speakers although you won't get the exagerrated one-note boom of a typcial computer speaker set sub that seems exciting for movies and games.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3 ... _Watt.html

There are also plenty of moderately priced DACs meant for computer use, with either S/PDIF or USB input and RCA analog output. I doubt you'll find any of reasonable quality cheaper than the Xonar DG though, it really is a steal at under $20 after MIR.

Wow. Thanks.

[MrJP]

How much are you prepared to spend in total on the audio side of things? Off-board DACs, whether in a dedicated box or built into speakers, will only be significantly better than the DAC in the Xonar once you get into multi-hundreds of dollars. However a decent pair of $100 headphones will clearly show the difference in analogue output quality between the Xonar and most onboard audio. If you're spending much less than this, you probably won't be able to tell the difference so might as well stick with onboard.

So: <$100 total budget, stick with onboard and choose suitable speakers or headphones; $100-$250-ish get the Xonar and a better set of speakers/headphones; >$250-ish consider sticking with onboard SPDIF and use an off-board DAC/headophone amp or decent speakers with DAC built in.

I'm in the option 2 camp with a Xonar DX and Sennheiser HD555s. I also have a pair of Samson Studiodock speakers, which are a good example of what I'm talking about: they cost around $150, sound very nice driven from the analogue outputs of the Xonar, but sound worse if I use the speakers' internal DAC (via USB). It's worth noting that the Xonar also has the advantage of pretty good virtual surround sound processing for games, which you'd lose with an SPDIF+DAC solution.

[just brew it!]

The reason I ask about how much quality is in modern onboard audio is that I have been burned with onboard audio at least twice when I plug my current Altec Lansing 2.1 setup into the correct output port. Once I installed a SB Live! 24 card in, the issue resolved itself. Admittedly, the motherboard in question is six years old and it was a Realtek onboard sound chip.

"Burned" in what way? Distortion? Noise/buzzing? Something else?

Even a Realtek codec can produce reasonable fidelity if the motherboard designer knows how to do analog circuitry for a high-noise environment. Motherboard makers finally seem to be getting the hang of this. No, it still won't be *as* good as a decent discrete card, but it will be good enough for most purposes.

Personally, I was afraid that onboard sound might still have issues.

Well, sometimes it still does. But (for me at least) it has been almost entirely "hit" instead of "miss" lately, especially with Asus motherboards (the brand I tend to buy now). The only time I really feel a need to use a discrete card any more is when I'm ripping old vinyl LPs to FLAC.

Moreover, I am surprised that because of discrete cards, there is no demand for quality onboard audio, whether it is playing any music at all or playing a DVD. I do find it strange that I only found USB headsets/headphones and USB speakers, but most are cheap and low quality (An exception is a $400 set from Bose, natch.).

You would think that somebody would make quality computer speakers that use SPDIF rather than USB, but apparently that is not the case.

People who care that much about sound quality are using an external receiver/DAC and speakers that are marketed to audio enthusiasts, not "computer speakers".

[riviera74]

The reason I ask about how much quality is in modern onboard audio is that I have been burned with onboard audio at least twice when I plug my current Altec Lansing 2.1 setup into the correct output port. Once I installed a SB Live! 24 card in, the issue resolved itself. Admittedly, the motherboard in question is six years old and it was a Realtek onboard sound chip.

"Burned" in what way? Distortion? Noise/buzzing? Something else?

The onboard Realtek was poorly implemented since all I heard was a lot of buzzing and distortion. Hence the SB Live! card.

[just brew it!]

The onboard Realtek was poorly implemented since all I heard was a lot of buzzing and distortion. Hence the SB Live! card.

Do you mean when nothing was playing, or when you tried to play something? If it was buzzing when there was supposed to be no sound, then yeah it was a crap implementation. If that was *all* you heard even when there was supposed to be sound playing, then there was also something more going on (like missing device drivers).

With the onboard on the Asus M3A78-CM I use at work, the sound is quite clean. I can just *barely* hear a tiny bit of hiss through the headphones if I crank the output level all the way to 100%; but given that music is painfully loud if I set the level that high, the hiss is a non-issue. (Granted, it's a VIA codec not a Realtek one... but the point is that onboard *can* be reasonable, even on an inexpensive motherboard.)

[riviera74]

Buzzing happened whether there was sound or not.

[nerdrage]

Buzzing happened whether there was sound or not.

By any chance, were you using the front-panel audio connector on your case? That will typically introduce a lot of noise into the output, because it's an analog signal traveling over an unshielded cable in the interior of your case (a very noisy electrical environment). Using the back-panel connector is almost always a significant improvement.

[squeeb]

I use a pair of Logitech Z-560 THX certified speakers which still rock some 8 years later. They support analog, optical and digital coax connections. My sound card is a creative X-Fi platinum. Nice card, but the software is awful...sometimes it stops putting out sound and I have to switch between entertainment/game mode in the control panel or even reboot to get it working again. I'll never buy another creative card. That said, I'm a big fan of discrete sound cards...probably check out the Xonar for my next build.

[just brew it!]

Buzzing happened whether there was sound or not.

By any chance, were you using the front-panel audio connector on your case? That will typically introduce a lot of noise into the output, because it's an analog signal traveling over an unshielded cable in the interior of your case (a very noisy electrical environment). Using the back-panel connector is almost always a significant improvement.

Muting any unused inputs (Mic, Line In, Analog CD) will also sometimes (but not always) cure buzzing issues.

[chuckula]

Many modern motherboards (on desktops such as those with a Z68 chipset) have an SPDIF port attached for onboard audio output. Can you get good if not great sound from that port?

Yes you can. I'm using an optical S/PDIF output right now from my onboard sound to a Yamaha receiver. The trick with S/PDIF is that it ain't gonna plug into the cheap Logitech speakers from Frye's. You need to have an actual receiver with an S/PDIF input and that drives speakers. You're getting sound quality in 2 ways: 1. You have a digital output from your PC, so internal noise doesn't affect the signal. 2. You typically have much higher quality amplification in the receiver and better speakers to reproduce the sound.

One point: If you are listening to MP3s, make sure they are high quality to begin with! You might not notice artifacts in crappy MP3s with a cheap speaker system, but you WILL notice them with a good receiver and set of speakers. Garbage in - Garbage out as they say.

[riviera74]

Buzzing happened whether there was sound or not.

By any chance, were you using the front-panel audio connector on your case? That will typically introduce a lot of noise into the output, because it's an analog signal traveling over an unshielded cable in the interior of your case (a very noisy electrical environment). Using the back-panel connector is almost always a significant improvement.

I always use the back panel connector since there was no front passthrough. I also muted any other outputs that had nothing to do with the speakers in Windows controls. No change.

[Scorpiuscat]

Good discussion, I have always gone out of my way to get a really good discreat sound card.

But I have wondered if on-board audio has reached a point where its "good enough" for me as I game a lot and use my comp sound system for music on less than 10% basis.

[just brew it!]

But I have wondered if on-board audio has reached a point where its "good enough" for me as I game a lot and use my comp sound system for music on less than 10% basis.

Well, ultimately only you can be the judge of that. But over the past decade or so, I would say that onboard sound quality has progressed from something so horrific that I wouldn't inflict it on a roadkill RIAA attorney, to something I'm willing to listen to music on. No, it still isn't quite up to the level of a good discrete card (and I'm sure you can still find a few truly bad ones out there), but for most purposes it is good enough. IMO before considering ditching your onboard, you should ask yourself whether upgrading some *other* part of your audio chain -- whether it be speakers, headphones, purchasing your music in a lossless format like FLAC (or physical CDs for us Luddites... or vinyl for the Uber-Luddites... ), or moving to an external amp with SPDIF (if your onboard supports it) -- would do more to improve your audio fidelity.