John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:13 pm

Vrock wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:The PC is an inefficient, bloated, malware ridden beast. People run virus scanners, there are poor drivers, bad API's, whatever. Rage is just bringing these issues to light. You've been living with them for so long, you've forgotten they existed. Guess what? They haven't gone away.
Refreshing honesty from a PC gamer. Hell, these reasons are some of the many why I left PC gaming 4 years ago. You just told me nothing has changed. Why in the hell would I, or anyone else, want to put up with that crap to play a game?



/raises hand

I do. But I also like the fact that the games I do play allow for 'third party' customization. Like all of Biowares games. I like tinkering with others' addons / missions/ story lines that bring added value to a 59.99 game. Things you can't do on a console easily. But its my preference and I cant really speak for anyone else.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:13 pm

opinion... a little of A & a little of B!

Honestly AMD totally botched the drivers for this game and Open GL in general. Open GL is a standard that has been around forever and really should be relatively easily supported. Apparently it was a hands down disaster on their part.

At the same time Carmack and crew obviously pushed the product out the door either a few months to early or a few years to late. You can google rage issues you'll find its not an AMD issue. While AMD was crashing the game Nvidia was having major issues and portions of the code that are intended to optimize the game for console players dramatically compromise visual integrity for pc players. Even after the first major patch they still have a series of issues plaguing the game as well as some goofy meta game design decisions with regards to graphics options etc.

Cluster F*** makes it sound like it was a bunch of peoples fault and really you can see how it is clearly id at the center of this thing goofing in a huge way. Even if AMD dropped the ball why was Nvidia hardware experiencing its own set of problems in addition to the silly console centric design softening up our hardcore pc product.

Id you goofed!
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:14 pm

I like the PC's ability to customize settings and doing mods which can make me easily overlook some the aching issues of running PCs (Driver updates, dealing with earlier bugs, potential malware related issues etc).

It is much harder to do such things with a console without jail-breaking it.

The interesting part is that the more consoles evolve to be dedicated gaming PCs. They more they start to suffer from the same problems (bugs and crashing issues). You have to get updates and patches which are now possible due to consoles having internet access and local rewritable data storage.

My big concern is that gaming in general has been stagnant on every platform. It is all about the same re-hashing of FPSs, MMORPGs and Roster Updates. There's hardly any games that try to do something genuinely different. I guess it involves too much risk for big publishers.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:46 pm

tanker27 wrote:
Vrock wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:The PC is an inefficient, bloated, malware ridden beast. People run virus scanners, there are poor drivers, bad API's, whatever. Rage is just bringing these issues to light. You've been living with them for so long, you've forgotten they existed. Guess what? They haven't gone away.
Refreshing honesty from a PC gamer. Hell, these reasons are some of the many why I left PC gaming 4 years ago. You just told me nothing has changed. Why in the hell would I, or anyone else, want to put up with that crap to play a game?



/raises hand

I do. But I also like the fact that the games I do play allow for 'third party' customization. Like all of Biowares games. I like tinkering with others' addons / missions/ story lines that bring added value to a 59.99 game. Things you can't do on a console easily. But its my preference and I cant really speak for anyone else.
I can see the appeal of tinkering and modding (though it's not one I share, I like for things to work right the first time), but I don't understand the enjoyment gained from having to work around bad drivers, inefficient APIs and OS, and multiple configurations that don't work. I mean, f*ck that. I'm not 19 and single anymore. My time is precious.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:23 pm

The sad part is that consoles these days force updates down your throat, and unneeded log ins, and all that crap too :( I'd say it's not too much different in practice. I don't tend to buy at release date, usually 6-10 months later, so by then the verison of the game I download from Steam is all patched up and works fine. If I buy it on the console it's better than even money I'll have to wait and download a ton of patches and updates or be forced to sign out which means I can't save progress. Sucks.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:47 pm

The majority of PC games work just fine out of the box. Sometimes the FOV needs changing in a config file, but I rarely find the need to look for a fix unless it's a bug, which usually gets patched. Rage and a few other games are the exception. Now, Deus Ex: HR is a fine example where they sent the game to an outside company to be configured to work well on the PC. I wish more game developers would do this.

Didn't Carmack say at one time they were ditching OpenGL in favor of DirectX? I kept thinking Rage was using DirectX until I read about the driver issues.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:59 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:The sad part is that consoles these days force updates down your throat, and unneeded log ins, and all that crap too :( I'd say it's not too much different in practice. I don't tend to buy at release date, usually 6-10 months later, so by then the verison of the game I download from Steam is all patched up and works fine. If I buy it on the console it's better than even money I'll have to wait and download a ton of patches and updates or be forced to sign out which means I can't save progress. Sucks.
Eh, what? It's true that console games are patched like PC games, but it's not a difficult process. Start the game, it will notify you an update is available, it downloads it, installs it, and restarts the game for you. Oh, the horror. Oh, the inconvenience. I...I had to press 'X' three times!

Seriously, the patches for console games are generally small and take but a few minutes to download and install. I've never played a console game that actually *needed* a patch to function. WTF are you whining about?
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:11 pm

Vrock wrote:Seriously, the patches for console games are generally small and take but a few minutes to download and install. I've never played a console game that actually *needed* a patch to function. WTF are you whining about?


I can think of at least one game where he is presenting a no exaggeration truth.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011 ... rience.ars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ8NhxD0 ... r_embedded

Ben explains just how bad the experience was, but the video he links (and I linked right above) shows just how retarded the situation is.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:45 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:
Vrock wrote:Seriously, the patches for console games are generally small and take but a few minutes to download and install. I've never played a console game that actually *needed* a patch to function. WTF are you whining about?


I can think of at least one game where he is presenting a no exaggeration truth.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011 ... rience.ars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ8NhxD0 ... r_embedded

Ben explains just how bad the experience was, but the video he links (and I linked right above) shows just how retarded the situation is.

Note that only the PS3 has these issues. The Xbox 360 has very minimal patch times and no required installations.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:48 pm

I've had a PS3 for 4 years and have never experienced anything like this. One game does not a problem make.

Also I find it hilarious that the same people who complain about how much time this install took somehow found time to write an article about it, video it, and upload it to YouTube.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:57 pm

Seriously, the patches for console games are generally small and take but a few minutes to download and install. I've never played a console game that actually *needed* a patch to function. WTF are you whining about?


Each patch may be small, but if you have to download 3-4 of them because the game I just bought is a year old (I don't buy new releases...I'm cheap), then it can take 20-30 minutes...which is just as damn annoying as anything on the PC that I've run into lately. And yes, I can play not logged into my Xbox Live account--I just can't save my progress, which is frigging craptacular. I'm glad you haven't experienced that much. I have, several times. So I elect to move to the PC again. Consoles strengths were the fact you could play them on a big ass TV (which is nice) and that they were plug-n-play, no dl'ing patches, no logging into services, etc. The first advantage is still there, the second is fading fast as they become more like PCs.

You see me as whining about consoles, I see you as whining about the PC...whatever.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:25 pm

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Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:44 pm

Vrock wrote:I've had a PS3 for 4 years and have never experienced anything like this. One game does not a problem make.

Also I find it hilarious that the same people who complain about how much time this install took somehow found time to write an article about it, video it, and upload it to YouTube.


I've downloaded hundreds of MB of patches for GT5 during the last 9 months, personally I don't mind. However unless you're off the web you have no option but to patch because it will auto launch the patching when you start the game.

Really it seems that the biggest benefit of gaming on consoles is the ability to point out how much better consoles are vs PCs. I like both kinds of platforms.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:00 pm

Vrock wrote:I've had a PS3 for 4 years and have never experienced anything like this. One game does not a problem make.


Never stated it defined a problem. Just that it represented a proper example of what he said. Hopefully it is not a sign of things to come to consoles.

Also I find it hilarious that the same people who complain about how much time this install took somehow found time to write an article about it, video it, and upload it to YouTube.


The video is question was made by a guy whose schtick is to put up videos weekly and rage about them.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:03 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:
d0g_p00p wrote:This is really depressing news for me being a long time PC gamer (and beta testing Doom) and a PC enthusiast to see id software basically "throw in the towel" in terms of PC gaming. I guess it's time for me to purchase a XBox controller for my PC and start to play all my games with it since it seems like I'll have to buy the next gen consoles just to play games and have the quality that the developer was aiming at.

Controllers suck vs mice, but if you want to go that route, be my guest.
Where are you getting these ideas? Id isn't throwing in the towel. Carmack has clearly stated that he is still developing for the PC, and focusing on it more than before.
"When we started on the game six years ago, I looked at the consoles and said ‘These are as good as the PCs that we’re on here’, and our development strategy was set up such that we basically developed live on all the platforms there. And now when we’re looking at PCs that have 10 times the horsepower of the consoles… I’m making a large change in my direction, just saying ‘We should be focusing on building things efficiently on the PC and [then] deploying on to consoles.’ And we didn’t make that as crisp of a distinction as we should have."

"My development system now has 24 threads and 24 gigs of memory, and we can start putting on half a terrabyte of solid state drives, and these are the things that are gonna drive the development process on the PC. I’m actually as excited about how we’re developing tht titles in this coming generation as the graphic enhancements and things that I’m gonna make."


clone wrote:
It was the same problem then as it is now.
not even close, when 3d arrived you couldn't get it on console, the market was large enough and expanding quarter on quarter year on year up until 2000, graphics power visibly improved in 9 month cycles and the most expensive graphics card of the day was a $200 Voodoo 12mb or a TNT 16mb.

I wasn't talking about consoles, I was talking about the gaming limitations of the PC being the same now as it was then. You have to build a PC to game, both then and now. Chances are pretty high that anyone who builds a gaming PC is going to be playing games on it, vs someone who buys a PC from best buy.
They were all definitely competing, regardless of graphics. If you think the voodoo was the beginning of 3d or gaming, then you're dead wrong. There was 2.5D before quake, not to mention that 3d cannot be considered the total definition of gaming. eg: starcraft/diablo.

clone wrote:the PC could do so much more, AI could be so much better, visually look so much better.

No, actually it can't. Carmack has stated problems with overhead, and he's right. Raw horsepower doesn't allow you to get those things if the API's aren't efficient.
these massively more powerful PC systems that struggle sometimes to hold the same framerate because of unnecessary overheads. If we were programming that hardware directly on the metal the same way we do consoles, it would be significantly more powerful.


Meanwhile, regardless of you "PC is dead", FUD flinging naysayers, who really should just stop using a PC altogether, id has released an update for rage.
RAGE defaults to lower video settings to allow the game to work on a
wide variety of hardware and software configurations.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to anticipate all possible graphics
driver issues in combination with unique end user hardware and software
configurations. For this reason RAGE does not automatically increase
video/graphics settings as this could result in negative side effects
on specific hardware and software configurations. The original release
of RAGE does not expose many video/graphics options for people to tweak
because some of these settings, although desirable from a quality
perspective, simply will not work on specific configurations either due
to hardware limitations and/or driver bugs. Due to popular demand for
more video and graphics options, this patch updates the video settings
menu and exposes several quality and performance settings. However, not
everyone may be able to increase the settings due to hardware limitations
and/or driver bugs.

So now the incompetents can easily override Rage's auto tune, which probably isn't a good thing due to hardware limitations and driver bugs. You complainers don't really have a leg to stand on now, as you got what you asked for. Change the settings at your own peril.



My comment was based on what John Carmack said in the OP link

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games,” he explained. “That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it.”

“Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases.”

That is what I mean when I said id was throwing in the towel. Also I know that a controller is no match for a K+M but again the way things are looking I should learn how to use a controller better for FPS games or games in general.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:09 pm

Vrock wrote:Also I find it hilarious that the same people who complain about how much time this install took somehow found time to write an article about it, video it, and upload it to YouTube.

And yet, that's what all the Rage complainers are doing. Pot, meet kettle.
clone wrote:ppl don't like dealing with problems, what they do love is exposing problems, it's fun for them and if the game sucks and you can't have fun with it at least you can have fun crapping on it.

I'm amazed at the honesty. You don't want to deal with the problem, you just want to have fun crapping on it, and that's exactly what all the Rage complainers are doing. "PC is dead, boo hoo, I think I'll go play on a console." Bye. We won't miss ya.
clone wrote:I don't want PC gaming to continue to decline, it just is.

Just go buy a console already. I can deal with the minor issues of owning a PC, it's not worth having a cow. The benefits vastly outweigh the negatives, you just need a bit of competence to deal with it. PC gaming isn't declining either, as there are several articles claiming that it will surpass consoles.
Vrock wrote:I don't understand the enjoyment gained from having to work around bad drivers

Guess what? That's not id's problem. That's between you and your graphics card company. Go bug them about it. Also, we don't have to deal with rebooting to update drivers anymore, and the control panels check for updates. It's incredibly simple, and you have to do it anyway. Who here games using year old drivers? That's stupid. I don't enjoy it when a game is completely ruined by drivers that glitch and crash, but I try to fix it instead of blaming the wrong people. Sure, if id was directly responsible for the problems, they'd deserve a bit of flak. But it's not all on them. PS. OpenGL isn't part of the OS, so you can pretty much copy/paste the dlls without installing the driver, not that I would recommend doing it without having some basic knowledge of windows.
NeXus 6 wrote:Didn't Carmack say at one time they were ditching OpenGL in favor of DirectX? I kept thinking Rage was using DirectX until I read about the driver issues.

No, that was rumors and bad speculation. Carmack responded by confirming rage was using OpenGL.

d0g_p00p wrote:That is what I mean when I said id was throwing in the towel.

Bull. You're speculating, the guy in the article was speculating, and Carmack has said things that directly contradict what you are saying. All he's saying in the real article is that consoles have larger audiences, not that he's throwing in the towel. Also, quoting my entire post like that is bad form.
"You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," Carmack replied. "We chose the latter."

And now when we’re looking at PCs that have 10 times the horsepower of the consoles… I’m making a large change in my direction, just saying ‘We should be focusing on building things efficiently on the PC and [then] deploying on to consoles.’ And we didn’t make that as crisp of a distinction as we should have."

Straight from the horse's mouth: Multiplatform development, with adequate focus on the PC. Not only that, but I've watched several of carmack's videos on rage, and he thinks consoles have hit a (memory) wall that make it tough to improve games. Consoles aren't the platform of innovation, that's the PC, but you need to make multiplatform games to financially succeed. The next console to upgrade hardware will likely have some decent games. Makes me wonder about nintendo beating sony and microsoft.
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Re: John Carmack: Ultimate Troll?

Postposted on Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:11 pm

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