Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention...

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Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention...

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:07 pm

Hey Guys, this issue honestly deserves more attention with the PC enthusiast crowd and a solid response from Nvidia.

For the past 4 months users with various models of Nvidia graphics cards (mainly but not limited to Geforce 560ti GTX) have been experiencing TDR (Timeout Detection and Recovery) issues when browsing the internet with Firefox. The issue seems to be rooted in all drivers leading back to version 280.26. Due to lack of resolution on Nvidia's part gamers have had to employ a variety of tweaks to ensure that they don't experience the dreaded 'Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered' error message. With every iteration of driver release there's a glimmer of hope that Nvidia has resolved the issue but 4 months on there is still no fix.
The issue cannot be pinned on bad hardware because by simply reverting to the 275.xx series of drivers gamers no longer experience TDR issues.

Here's a few threads on the issue that expand greatly on the info I have provided:

- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78420
- http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=207666 (A thread with over 750,000 views on the official Nvidia forums regarding this issue)

My big question is; can Damage contact Nvidia for a statement on this issue? I just believe more awareness surrounding this needs to come to the forefront. Hopefully big tech sites like this can leverage some power within the community to get an answer from the Green Behemoth.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:59 pm

It's possible that the issue lies with Mozilla. I've used multiple NV cards recently from the 400/500 families and not seen this, however. It's hard to fix a bug if you can't *find* it.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:29 pm

That is true, however, reverting to the 275.xx drivers on my system (and on many others systems) the problem in Firefox goes away so I'm hesitant to point the blame at Mozilla right now. Logically, as it stands, it appears to be a driver issue.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:35 pm

It should not be possible for a web browser to crash the video driver. Period. Even if Firefox does have a bug which is acting as the trigger for this issue, the video driver has a bug too if it is allowing the browser to crash it.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:00 pm

I have a GTX 560 Ti with 285.38 drivers in my main PC, and I have not seen the problem you describe.

However, I *have* had a serious problem with the Flash plug-in for Adobe crashing frequently, causing every Firefox window and tab to lock up for ~25 seconds each time it happens. I've tried updating video drivers (to 285.38 from whatever older one I had installed) in order to fix the problem, but that didn't fix it.

I've also installed a couple of Flash updates and a couple of Firefox updates. (The problem started with FF7's release.)

Nothing has really helped. Totally frustrating.

Eventually, I just switched to Chrome as my main browser.

Is this in any way the same or a related problem to the one you're seeing? Because it sure sounds like it could be. If it is, one has to wonder whether Nvidia or Adobe deserves more of the blame--or perhaps Mozilla? Dunno. Just hard to see those three suspects in a lineup and not point to Adobe. :)
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:14 pm

It's now happened to me at least six times with an N460GTX during casual FF browsing since setting up my new system with the 285.62 drivers at the end of October, and the occurrences have been more or less evenly distributed across that period. Given my usage habits on that machine, that's maybe one occurrence for every 10 hours of active browsing time. I didn't have Flash block installed until more recently, so I guess I'll have to pay attention to whether I'm on a Flash-allowed site next time it happens.

If Nvidia hasn't located the problem by now it's likely they're not trying too hard. And even if FF's hardware-accelleration engine is the root cause of this due to an illegal call (as some speculate, and have allegedly resolved by disabling that feature) then I still agree with JBI -- it shouldn't turn into a driver lockup. The driver should deny the illegal request, forcing the application to crash instead.

Or, maybe there's a lot I don't know (as in, everything) about Windows GDI+ programming, and the blank-out followed by a driver reset IS the most graceful exit. Annoying regardless.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:35 pm

I can confirm driver crashes with Firefox and my GTX 560 Ti (thanks again MSI and TR), and I don't think it is (always) Flash related. I haven't been paying close enough attention to know whether it was a driver update to blame, but at times it was bad enough that it occurred several times a day. The past couple of weeks have been crash free so I haven't felt the need to disable hardware acceleration.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:43 pm

Civilization V in DX11 mode triggered this, nearly every time a leader popped up, with my GTX 460. Haven't tried with my new 570 yet.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:09 pm

Damage wrote:I have a GTX 560 Ti with 285.38 drivers in my main PC, and I have not seen the problem you describe.

However, I *have* had a serious problem with the Flash plug-in for Adobe crashing frequently, causing every Firefox window and tab to lock up for ~25 seconds each time it happens. I've tried updating video drivers (to 285.38 from whatever older one I had installed) in order to fix the problem, but that didn't fix it.

I've also installed a couple of Flash updates and a couple of Firefox updates. (The problem started with FF7's release.)

Nothing has really helped. Totally frustrating.

Eventually, I just switched to Chrome as my main browser.

Is this in any way the same or a related problem to the one you're seeing? Because it sure sounds like it could be. If it is, one has to wonder whether Nvidia or Adobe deserves more of the blame--or perhaps Mozilla? Dunno. Just hard to see those three suspects in a lineup and not point to Adobe. :)


I have experienced the exact issue you describe Damage. I have to disable Hardware Acceleration in Firefox and also set the GPU to run in "Prefer Maximum Performance" in the Power Management section of the driver configuration properties.
Following the thread over at Nvidia the general trend seems to be that users with 560ti's browsing various sites in Firefox are affected by this but that said there are other reports from individuals claiming that this same issue is occurring within a multitude of various applications including some games. It's really hard to pin point what might be going on but like I've said, reverting to the 275.xx series of drivers all of these problems go away, so was it something introduced in the newer drivers that are causing this? Who knows but it's easier to point a finger at the driver as being the culprit.

The thing is, most other people report that reverting to the 275.xx drivers resolve their issues too. The problem with this is that the 275.xx drivers are pre-Rage release so they're not optimized for a lot of the newer games that have been recently released. Combine that with the fact that users won't be able to play some games like with the graphical corruption issue in Battlefield 3 with pre 280 drivers and we have a big problem at hand. So it's easy to say, "Well just use the 275.xx drivers!" but then we introduce all of these additional 'concerns' into the picture which is what I think is the main issue here.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:16 pm

Interesting. We have user with Intel HD Graphics on an HP 2350P laptop that has these issues. It started with the newer FF versions, (maybe newer Flash versions related also?)

I've personally had FF crash via Flash numerous times recently, usually on a particular blog I visit (embedded Youtube video.) Previously just the flash module would crash, now it takes out the whole browser.

I don't agree with Mozilla's fast development/update stance. I've had more issues since they started doing this than the previous 5+ years of using Firefox.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:32 pm

indeego wrote:Interesting. We have user with Intel HD Graphics on an HP 2350P laptop that has these issues. It started with the newer FF versions, (maybe newer Flash versions related also?)

I've personally had FF crash via Flash numerous times recently, usually on a particular blog I visit (embedded Youtube video.) Previously just the flash module would crash, now it takes out the whole browser.

I don't agree with Mozilla's fast development/update stance. I've had more issues since they started doing this than the previous 5+ years of using Firefox.


This is really a TDR issue experienced on Nvidia cards. If the user isn't seeing 'Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered' error messages then it's probably not the same thing.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:09 pm

I've also got the TDR issue using a GTX460 (285.62). It happens now and then while using firefox. BUT, I've also experienced it a couple of time while using Directory Opus 10 (Which I imagine uses hardware acceleration for it's transition effects), so I don't think the problem is confined to just firefox. I never once experienced a TDR issue until I moved to the 28x drivers.

In regard to the flash crash issues. I haven't had flash crash on my main PC (The one with TDR issues). But, I had it crash constantly in firefox on my HTPC ever since FF7. It happens with both flash 10 and 11. To decrease the browser lockup time I simply lowered the "dom.ipc.plugins.processLaunchTimeoutSecs" and "dom.ipc.plugins.timeoutSecs" about:config settings to 5 seconds. However, I've started using Chrome on my HTPC and haven't had any issues since. I believe the flash crash issue might be a FF7 introduced issue since I never had it crash before upgrading.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:14 pm

I had no idea about this issue; I've been using Chrome on my nVidia-powered PC, though. :p
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:41 pm

i have the same problem with my 560 ti my 460 in my laptop works fine....
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:55 pm

I know it's hard to pin down what the problem is when you start taking into consideration the myriad of hardware/software configurations out there but I stand by my original logic that states that this all started happening with the 280.xx series of drivers and by simply reverting to the 275.xx drivers all of these issues disappear, let's not disregard that! It stands to reason that Adobe Flash/ Mozilla Firefox, and all of the other apps experiencing these issues aren't the source of the problem. Clearly, based on this troubleshooting we can look to the driver as being the source of the issue, which until now has not been addresses by Nvidia in around 4 months. That's an incredible amount of time for a hardware manufacturer to not confirm that there is a reasonable enough evidence to suggest that the issue lies with their driver.

This all results in frustration for the end-user.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:58 pm

"If the user isn't seeing 'Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered' error messages then it's probably not the same thing."


Happens on Intel (igfx) AMD, (amdkmdap) and Nvidia quite a bit from what I'm seeing
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:07 pm

indeego wrote:
"If the user isn't seeing 'Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered' error messages then it's probably not the same thing."


Happens on Intel (igfx) AMD, (amdkmdap) and Nvidia quite a bit from what I'm seeing

Sure, it can happen on any platform when the display driver stops responding for some reason, in fact IIRC ATi was one of the first to address it with their "VPU Recover" feature several years ago. I remember seeing it activate once or twice on an X800 IIRC. Now Windows Vista and 7 include a native reset routine (TDR) for a stalled display driver, and in general it's a good feature -- you can't eliminate all possible scenarios for a display driver lockup, and TDR is intended to produce a reasonably graceful reset rather than stalling out the display (or the entire machine) under the current OS session.

But as Jon says, this is a specific issue to Nvidia on recent driver releases. I ran my N460GTX under XP with a much older driver revision for a solid year with no problems at all, and now (as noted above) I've seen a TDR event six times in just over a month since rebuilding my system under Win7 with one of the problematic driver releases.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:10 pm

Hey all, so I've been pretty pissed about this issue since my rebuild this summer

i5 2500K
8GB DDR3
EVGA GTX 570 Superclocked
P8Z68 V-Pro
Windows 7 64bit

It started for me after the rollout of the 280.62 driver, and every time I would watch video it would crash. Winamp, VLC, youtube, even flash banners. I use Chrome as my main browser, although I've read alot about Firefox as a culprit in this, thats not my case. After the 285 set came out things were dandy until today, when it crashed 10 times succesively during either video, music, or typing in this particular box, in fact, thank god for restoring crashed browsers. But unlike the standard "crash and recover" that the 280 set gave me, now its entirely locking up the computer. first the mouse stops, then EVERYTHING locks. and I have to do a hard reset. I read that the 290 set was being released in specific for gamers, MW3, Skyrim, Batman: AC, etc. So I tested Skyrim and Batman. Skyrim was a mess, nothing but crazy polygons flying all over the place. I almost puked. Batman worked ok, it even looks a little nicer, but it slowed down, logged up, then did a crash and recover, back to working order.

I've had some thought that it might be from the Superclocking, but I've seen other set ups in threads that arent, where it still happens.

HELP US NVIDIA!!! WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US!?!?!


after all these years of throwing it in ATI's face in favor of Nvidia...../sob


*** edit - I tried to revert to the 275 drivers as some have suggested, but the nvidia installer won't let me due to windows incompatibility
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:25 pm

I've had this issue with this GTX 560 Ti. I plugged in an old Nvidia 7300 LE and had the same issue. I'm pretty sure it's my Asus P7P55D-E LX, which I just set up an advanced RMA earlier today.

Among other things, I've been getting purple splotches in games, single horizontal lines of static, partially loaded textures, and driver crashes. Strangely, the driver crashes have only occurred while browsing through Mozilla. I don't think that's the issue, but it's a strange coincidence.

Hopefully the new motherboard fixes the problem - I've been dealing with this for slightly over four months.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:34 am

Just happened again. Browsing three tabs on Firefox. Nothing running in the background other than Windows processes and an idling, minimized Paint.net session. Merely entering text into a forum field box (not this one FWIW) and just like that, the screen goes black. When it came back, with the usual TDR recovery message displaying from the system tray, I double checked the browser tabs for Flash. As expected, all three tabs were Flashblocked, so it wasn't that.

Get with the program, Nvidia :evil:
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:22 pm

I went back and checked the Event Log and noticed that the first occurrence of the driver crash and recovery was May 17, the day the 275.27 beta driver was released. Since then I've stuck to the WHQL releases but at least in my case the crashes aren't specific to the 28x.xx series of drivers. I had two crashes again today -- oddly for the past six months it seems to work fine for 3-4 weeks then I'll get several crashes in the space of a day or two. Having a hard time figuring that out.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:14 am

I get this same error but, only when playing games. Display driver stops working and recovers.

Some games handle this error better than others. LOTRO its just a hitch, 2 or 3 second black screen, then back to playing. SW:TOR it messes with the coloring/contrast and graphics rendering, have to alt-tab out of the game, then back in to fix it. World of Tanks it freezes up the game. I have to ctlr+alt+delete, bring up the task manager or hit cancel, then wait a sec, alt+tab out and back into the game to get it to work again.

Its been doing this for a couple years, over at least half a dozen driver updates, and new HD with fresh install of Vista, which led me to believe it was a hardware issue. Possibly heat or voltage/PSU but, can't figure it out or find a solution.

Running Vista 64 with a eVGA 280 GTX with 285.62 driver version.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:23 am

I also get this same error on my GTX 570, usually when using Windows Media Center or Media Player Classic. Though oddly enough it never seems to happen when using VLC. I'm thinking about rolling back to 275.x to see if the problem goes away because it's driving me insane. Like when Professor X gets visited by the Shi'ar insane. I take it that even updating to 285.x still doesn't fix the problem?

Windows 7 x64; Geforce 280.26.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:22 pm

I created a new account in the hopes of helping someone.My old one just doesn't want to work for some reason.Ok so....

I have a MSI 560 TI Twin Frozr.Soon as i bought the card the issue started,was not happening on the 260 i had. First i tried drivers,no luck.Then i tried setting the power mode just for Firefox from adaptive to performance.No luck issue still occurring.I then set the global setting to maximum performance so the card was always running at full speed 3D clocks.Seemed to get a little better but could have been luck. To help rule out the card being bad(bad memory or gpu) i ran the OCCT gpu test with error checking on for 3 hours. I then ran a Cuda based memory test for 10 passes.Card checked out fine.

Then i bumped up the voltage with MSI Afterburner by .15.Bingo...issue fixed.I literally cant make it TDR now, i could on command previous by spamming Firefox.exe or Tabs.

I am not saying this is a fix for every vendors 560TI.But i am saying that in some instances, especially with factory OCed(and possibly self oc'ed) cards such as my 560 Twin Frozr,it may help.As they are factory OC cards, i think the voltage they set them at isn't enough for some that leave the factory.Personally i think this is slipping through MSI cause they are not checking stability at 2D voltages and temps possibly?I have seen the same issue with some Sandy Bridge chips/motherboards.Fine when loaded but crash during idle.Alot of times cause the mobo is set to Auto,or people are setting it themselves but too low of an idle voltage.

I also did see a thread afterwards where another MSI 560ti owner got the same result after bumping the voltage.I think this might be a small percentage of the TDR issue as they cant all be voltage lol.

For $hits and giggles it would be interesting if everyone above bumped their GPU voltage by .10 or .15 for a few days and see if this helped other Nvidia cards for testing purposes assuming your comfortable with it/and kept your eye on the temps just to be safe,assuming your card is equipped to have the voltage bumped.I don't think all of them are capable of it.I don't think anything in the 5 series would be affected much temp wise personally as they tend to not run as hot as the 4 series,but still.If you use MSI Afterburner to do this make sure you check the "apply overclocking at system start up" button at the bottom or the voltage change will be back at default every reboot.

Edit***I should clarify me bumping the full power 3d voltage and it fixing the issue makes zero sense.My TDR's occur in low and middle power states,what you see during browsing without flash.I cant explain it.
Edit** Here is the link for the Cuda Memtest,not a bad idea for ones toolbox for Nvidia cards.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/Memo ... Test.shtml

Edit2* Hmm,it seems that might have been written by the same person that wrote OCCT,so its possible this is actually what is used during the gpu memtest within OCCT.Great program to for burn ins to check for errors for those not familiar with it.ALWAYS keep an eye on the displayed temps for a few mins when running OCCT to get a feel how how its going to run your gpu/cpu before walking away from it for a while.It idles for 1 min after you hit start before it does its thing.Of course you can set the idle to zero if you wish.Also,OCCT WILL stop testing if cpu or gpu temps hit 85c,this also adjustable,but that is a good temp for it to stop at just to be safe.It also stops any time it detects an error.It does the testing 1 thing at a time.Cpu,Cpu with memory check,gpu,or gpu memory testing(if you hit check for errors box).At least thats what i took from it.

http://www.ocbase.com/perestroika_en/index.php
Last edited by panthal01 on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Report back if extra voltage helps anyone,thanks :)
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:58 pm

This TDR issue has been plaguing NVidia card users on the other side of the pond, too:
Germany's premier PC graphics and technology site, 3dcenter.de, has a thread in their
forums about this:
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=517450
(all in German, so use a translator)

Users at 3dcenter even incorporated a poll in this, as a certain amount of their users refused to
believe those experiencing the TDR issue.

Some people also suspect cards with a too low vcore to be the culprit :o
Also, power management within Windows seems to play in to this...
(I wonder if Linux users with the most recent Linux drivers also experience similar crashes?)

Manufacturers point to NVidia's drivers and refuse RMAs (at least that's the case in Germany),
do they behave the same in the US?

At least, NVidia is now acknowledging the issue:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s=a34128bb6852436a2b658eb9bc334841&showtopic=216971&st=360&p=1338004&#entry1338004
They want minidumps from
Code: Select all
c:\windows\LiveKernelReports\WatchDog
sent to this address:
Code: Select all
nvidiaforums@yahoo.com

together with a Nvidia Forum user name...
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:33 pm

Damage wrote:I have a GTX 560 Ti with 285.38 drivers in my main PC, and I have not seen the problem you describe.

However, I *have* had a serious problem with the Flash plug-in for Adobe crashing frequently, causing every Firefox window and tab to lock up for ~25 seconds each time it happens. I've tried updating video drivers (to 285.38 from whatever older one I had installed) in order to fix the problem, but that didn't fix it.

I've also installed a couple of Flash updates and a couple of Firefox updates. (The problem started with FF7's release.)

Nothing has really helped. Totally frustrating.

Eventually, I just switched to Chrome as my main browser.

Is this in any way the same or a related problem to the one you're seeing? Because it sure sounds like it could be. If it is, one has to wonder whether Nvidia or Adobe deserves more of the blame--or perhaps Mozilla? Dunno. Just hard to see those three suspects in a lineup and not point to Adobe. :)



This issue seems to effect everyone. Myself and my friend with a 6950. It's annoying, run into it a lot in combination with gawker blogs and embedded youtube vids. I think the issue here is the problem may be spread across 3 or more companies, meaning I think we'll have a hell of a time clearing this up. Our complaints won't be centralized and every company involved will want one of the others to deal with it.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:04 pm

I get this sometimes on my Acer laptop with Firefox. It has Intel and AMD HD6550 graphics. My desktop has HD4850s and doesn't have this issue.

This sounds like a specific conflict with how Firefox handles certain web graphics. My Acer laptop is running a first gen core i5 chipset. Is this issue occuring with new Intel platforms?

It is frustrating to have graphics companies drop the ball on support, but I don't know what else Nvidia can do in this situation until they confirm what the root of the issue is - which at least they seem to be attempting to determine. I remember how frustrated I was with AMD when, less than 2 years after I bought my HD4850s, crossfire simply no longer worked after a certain Catalyst release (around 10.5). AMD ignored the issue and I ended up flashing a more recent Hd4850 bios from another manufacturer, which mostly resolved things, but with no thanks to AMD.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:27 pm

Maybe un-releted, but when flash video and FF are used together, my 6850's decide to give up. I get a delightful message stating that AMD VPU Recover has restored display driver functionality. Happens everytime without fail on Youtube and others, but on Chrome and IE9 there's no problems at all.

The issue might lay at Mozilla's door, not Nvidia?
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geekl33tgamer
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Hey guys,

I wanted to say i had this issue also, mainly after i updated my video drivers for the Battlefield 3 beta. Immediately after that i started getting this error and initially i thought it was caused by the game and thought it was just buggy. After the beta ended i noticed the crashes continued during normal FF browsing. Idk how many drivers i tried but with the newest WHQL driver 285,62 the crashes have stopped for me.

My spex:
Phenom II x4 955 BE
Asus M4A88TD-V EVO/USB3
GTX 560 Ti from Gainward
A-DATA 1x2 Gb 1333MHz
WD Caviar Black 500GB Sata II
Seasonic S12II 520W
nVidia video drivers FAIL, click for more info
Disclaimer: All answers and suggestions are provided by an enthusiastic amateur and are therefore without warranty either explicit or implicit. Basically you use my suggestions at your own risk.
Arclight
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