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"strategy and tactics" are virtually worthless when you can't even score reliable body shots at 20 yards

I disagree with both the direct and the insinuated assertions in this sentence. I find strategy and tactics to be far more important when we're not all Sgt. Murtaugh, nor do I find it difficult to reliably score body shots at 20, 40, or even 60 virtual yards. Further, I witness the accomplishment of even greater feats, usually in the Kill Cams or whatever from the guy what got me.

even if I have a drop on someone, 7/10 I can't kill him before he turns around and kills me. If its a fair fight, its more like 9.5/10.

I honestly don't know what your anecdotal numbers are supposed to mean.

I honestly don't know what your anecdotal numbers are supposed to mean.

They mean that as long as game pads are the only supported method of input for consoles, I won't be using one as a gaming platform.

SPOOFE wrote:

Well let me look, most of my parts have something in the range of a 3 year warranty, should they die after the warranty period typically they cost next to nothing to replace.

Yes, this does help balance out the fact that keeping up-to-date with PC gaming typically has a regular expenditure factor.

Say I bought a 400 dollar GPU 3 years on it dies I could replace it for less than 40 percent of its original price.

Say you bought a 400 dollar GPU 3 years on and it doesn't die; you probably want to replace it for significantly more than 40 percent of its original price anyway. Conversely, if I buy a 400 dollar console 3 years on and it doesn't die... I'm not spending another penny, unless I want some peripheral or something.

Ok, well that was one example of depreciation. I typically buy one 200 dollar GPU every 2 gens That still has cost me less than the 3 xboxes I've bought in a 5 year period. I'm currently running a 460 GTx and its does pretty well with many games. I play BF3 SP on high and MP on medium most other games rung on high. I always render at the displays native resolution, that hasn't been an issue since the 6800GT, lol. A 200 dollar CPU will last you 6 or more years, my Q6600 lasted 6 years, could have kept going honestly but I wanted the excitement of a new platform and wasted a fair amount of money doing my first AMD system.

If we compare PC to PS3 things look allot better. But then some major firmware updates came down the pipe that have really goofed that platform. I knew many college students that dual booted the PS3 for a desktop as well and no they didn't pirate stuff they were not terribly technically literate they had nerd friends set the who'll thing up. Then Sony comes in and puts the kabash on that despite that being an intentional feature... Generally speaking just for gaming though PS3 is a great deal, good product engineering means it actually will last that advertised 10 years, vs the microsoft 12-36 months half-life, lol.

At the heart of this people think when some one prefers pc it means they hate console gaming. I prefer pc, I own all 3 consoles(remember how I keep saying I bought 3 xboxes). Objectively as someone who plays all platforms regularly if you can get past the DRM fiasco on pc it is peerless. Especially now that I have all 4 gaming devices plugged into my 7.1 Home theater setup and displaying on my 60" 1080p plasma. PC wins, I don't have some sick expensive setup, heck my brother who doesn't game has a cheaper better computer than I do. I have a 1090T x6 and an 460 GTX, nothing pricey, not when I got them and now less so.

I hate Microsoft, they don't do anything for their consumers. Xbox live is a crap rip off service. It was great like 7-8 years ago, but today its antiquated and is built on probably the worst game hosting idea ever, peer hosting. Playstations largely has better offerings in the online space for me while the un-unified online is frustrating. Pc has been trending towards a better unity with steam, and through that even in non steam games I can easily communicate with people across games etc.(something I can't do on PS3) i enjoy setting up a good group chat of friends while gaming, or watching TV or something. PC makes it easiest with my friends. I most of them have xbox but no one plays games online for the reasons I've sighted. The removal of functioning lan support for many xbox titles means you need gold memberships for lan parties, god the frustration I have with Microsoft.

If you bought a xbox at launch you have already had to buy a second xbox as your warranty expired and it died, maybe even two more times and the live service fees are 420 dollars up to this point in time if you had gold all that time. So Assuming your xbox was 300 as the slim launched at that price, and its lower than the platform launch bundle I find it to be a fair price.

So if your curious ownership of cost of being in the xbox party has cost me up to this point 1300 dollars in consoles and live gold(say you only got two xboxes, subtract 300, wow a 1,000 dollars!). Yeah PC can easily compete with that! Assuming I build a core system for 600 and update GPU's at 200 dollars every 2 years I'd be in for 1200 in pc costs right now. Not counting the disparity in software prices, and the fact that you get a premium experience blah blah blah. The OP is a fallacy.

At the heart of this people think when some one prefers pc it means they hate console gaming.

Do you really think this thread exists as it does due to matters of mere preference?

SPOOFE wrote:

At the heart of this people think when some one prefers pc it means they hate console gaming.

Do you really think this thread exists as it does due to matters of mere preference?

Good point!

Mr. Bamboo Head wrote:

I honestly don't know what your anecdotal numbers are supposed to mean.

They mean that as long as game pads are the only supported method of input for consoles, I won't be using one as a gaming platform.

That makes sense. It's hard to master a gamepad, so it's totally understandable that you can't handle it.

Arclight wrote:

Bottom line kids get consoles cause they're cheap and their parents can't buy them a new system every 2 years, guys get PCs cause they got their own job and can afford to fuel their hobby. Honda Civic vs Lamborghini Murciélago.

Funny, I drive a Honda Civic and I play a PS3, and I'll wager I make more money than alot of PC gamers. So much for that argument.

I think the costs are pretty even at the end of the day between console and PC. The console hardware is cheaper (as long as it doesn't fail in RROD), but that is somewhat offset by the high price of the games. At release PC games are usually $10 cheaper, and they seem to drop in price faster (or have sales). There's no monthly fee to play games online either. PC games can also have better longevity because of user-created modifications (although PC gaming is moving away from this to some extent )

You can also do a lot more with a PC than just play games. Most people need a PC anyway (which are $300+ at the very cheapest), so spending a few hundred more for a gaming capable one isn't that bad.

I enjoyed console games (Mario 3 and Metal Gear Solid are still some of my all-time favorites) but I couldn't be compelled to buy any of the current generation. I refuse to ever buy a Sony product again (I've had 10+ Sony products and literally every single one has failed) on principle, and after seeing my friends all have RROD problems with XBOX360 that turned me off of those. The Wii is just too casual.

Vrock wrote:

That makes sense. It's hard to master a gamepad, so it's totally understandable that you can't handle it.

It's not that it's "hard" to master a gamepad, rather that it's impossible for it to have the precision of a mouse (or wheel in the case of racing games). I played consoles from the age of about 4 up till I was 20 or so, but it still always felt like I was fighting the controller in FPSs, rather than fighting the enemies.

That being said a controller can provide a better experience for certain games (2D platformers, sports games, etc), which often aren't even released for PC (even though you can hook up a controller to a PC). Likewise a mouse+kb is ideally suited for strategy games, so very few strategy games are made for consoles. Simulations tend to be nearly impossible with a controller as well (In Flight Sim X I use a keyboard, mouse, AND joystick)

travbrad wrote:

It's not that it's "hard" to master a gamepad, rather that it's impossible for it to have the precision of a mouse (or wheel in the case of racing games).

The precision of a mouse isn't really needed to enjoy a FPS in my opinion.

travbrad wrote:

I played consoles from the age of about 4 up till I was 20 or so, but it still always felt like I was fighting the controller in FPSs, rather than fighting the enemies.

I was a dyed in the wool FPS PC gamer for years. My first encounter with thumbsticks was in 2007. I played the demo of Resistance: Fall of Man over and over until I was competent. It sucked. There were many times I wanted to throw the controller. I kept at it. It took about a month of retraining my hands and brain, but I never feel like I'm fighting the controller anymore. It's hard, and it's not nearly as intuitive as a mouse. I'll willingly give up that precision to play on my couch on a 55" TV instead of my computer desk in front of a 19" monitor.

The only, and I mean only, genre I miss a mouse and keyboard for is the RTS, which is a pretty dead genre anyway, sadly.

Grew up on game consoles in my childhood, got my first PC when I was in adolescence. I respect and appreciate both platforms.

The stupidity of a polemic stance should be self-evident to anyone past puberty. It's not religion or politics, just enjoy what you like.

Most people need a PC anyway (which are $300+ at the very cheapest), so spending a few hundred more for a gaming capable one isn't that bad.

Correction: Most people HAVE a PC, and most people have either a CHEAP or an OLD PC, and most cheap or old PC's are incredibly limited in upgrades... especially when you take into account the burgeoning popularity of notebooks.

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clone wrote:

I just priced out a complete Core i3 540 unit with 8gb's of ram, MSI mobo, 500gb hdd, 2 X DVDrw, 500 watt 2X6pin PCIe psu, case, and AMD HD 6950 1gb video card for $591.00 + tax, free shipping.

that is worlds above PS3 or Xbox 360.

That also is a best case scenario, doesn't come with Blu-ray, and it's still more than twice what a PS3 would cost you at any store in the US.

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You're a PC fan. I get that.

Not everyone has the ability, time, or desire to scour the internets to find the best prices for software (which you left out of your build), hardware (I didn't see a gamepad, mouse, or keyboard in your build estimate) or know how (this may be a shock to you, but most people don't care to learn how to build a computer.) Nearly everyone has the time to walk into Target or Wal-Mart and buy a game console. For the same price. Everywhere.

I didn't see a monitor in your build, either.

You bring up other advantages the PC has, which since we're talking about gaming here, aren't relevant. You leave out exclusive games to the console, which is relevant.

You'd be better off arguing that for the price of a console, one could upgrade a Dell box with a VGA card and RAM that would provide superior graphics. You'd be right.

You'd also be completely missing the point, which is unsurprising for PC gamers. They can't understand why anyone would trade the holy grails of 'moar grafix!!' and 'ZOMG WASD + M!!' for anything. Graphics aren't everything. Keyboard + mouse isn't everything. And as long as you don't understand that, we can never have a conversation.

Lastly, learn to use the shift key. When you begin sentences without capital letters, all I see is a teenager with a pimply face raging against teh intarwebs.

Vrock wrote:

Lastly, learn to use the shift key. When you begin sentences without capital letters, all I see is a teenager with a pimply face raging against teh intarwebs.

funny stuff:

complete lack of capitalization even when needed, on the other hand, is not much better. capitals are integral part of the rules for spelling. there is no excuse for ignoring them. whether you are called e e cummings, jack, peter, or alice, or that your birth language is english, french, german or spanish... it just shows writers who don't care (or don't even know what the shift key is for).
◦ ◦ ah (but?) eecummings, use-d p!unctu ation: at times albeit— rather. idiosyncratically,,,
◦ ◦ cummings disregarded punctuation as a stylistic choice to say something about his writing or emphasize where he did use punctuation. he did know what proper punctuation was.
◦ ◦ intentional lack of capitalization can be used stylistically to make text feel less formal, more laid back or more down to earth, and especially to suggest the writer isn't stuffy or anal. note that punctuation may or may not be altered from formal usage.
◦ ◦ it can make the writer look anally informal though.
◦ ◦ and it can be difficult for dyslexics to decipher. do you mean john or john?

taken from - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ommonComma

Vrock wrote:

There were many times I wanted to throw the controller. I kept at it. It took about a month of retraining my hands and brain, but I never feel like I'm fighting the controller anymore.

I'm glad you enjoy it, but it just doesn't work for me. I spent 15 years using controllers and that wasn't enough time for a controller to feel natural in a FPS

Vrock wrote:

I'll willingly give up that precision to play on my couch on a 55" TV instead of my computer desk in front of a 19" monitor.

It's very easy to hook up a PC to an HDTV, so you can have the precision AND a big display. A PC can actually utilize a full 1080p resolution too unlike consoles. If you prefer consoles that's cool and to each his/her own, but the big display thing isn't exclusive to consoles. Just because most people hook their PC up to a monitor doesn't mean you have to.

Granted you can't easily lay on a couch while using a mouse, but an Xbox/Ps3 controller works on a PC too.

I have a mouse pad on the cushion beside me on the couch and the keyboard in my lap. My feet are propped up on the incliner.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

I have a mouse pad on the cushion beside me on the couch and the keyboard in my lap. My feet are propped up on the incliner.

You're atypical.

I can swat a fly with a Cadillac too, if I want to. That doesn't mean the Cadillac is best suited to fly swatting.

With enough time, money, tweaking, and desire, a PC can do anything a console can do, and do it better, I absolutely don't dispute that. You PC guys seem to think you're scoring a point by saying that, but in reality all it shows is how much you really miss the point of consoles to begin with.

I have a PlayStation 3, too. It's fine for what it does, but the PC is much better for most things, particularly for web browsing, recording TV, etc. I was merely addressing the incorrect assumption that you couldn't use a mouse on the couch.

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their is no scour the "internets", all prices came from 2 websites, 1 for parts 1 for price matching, it took 20 minutes, keyboard + optical mouse cost less than $10, took 1 minute to find.

Yes, because you just now decided to start looking for prices; you certainly haven't devoted hours and hours of your life to being fairly up-to-date with this information.

This is always the point where the conversation gets just plain dishonest. PC gamers are convinced it's just a matter of overwhelming the opposing party with verbiage, when the truth is that Vrock is right... there's just something they don't get, and probably can't get.

SPOOFE wrote:

their is no scour the "internets", all prices came from 2 websites, 1 for parts 1 for price matching, it took 20 minutes, keyboard + optical mouse cost less than $10, took 1 minute to find.

Yes, because you just now decided to start looking for prices; you certainly haven't devoted hours and hours of your life to being fairly up-to-date with this information.

This is always the point where the conversation gets just plain dishonest. PC gamers are convinced it's just a matter of overwhelming the opposing party with verbiage, when the truth is that Vrock is right... there's just something they don't get, and probably can't get.

Hours?
When I went about building my first self-built gaming PC, I found the TR system guide on google in 2008 and it informed me of my options at different price points in a matter of minutes. Any nincompoop can find a page that suggests components for first-time builders in no time at all. All it takes is the will to stop being lazy and do a little research.

Vrock wrote:

You PC guys

Why the heck do you hang out here?

Vrock wrote:

but in reality all it shows is how much you really miss the point of consoles to begin with.

This is a PC hardware site. What did you expect?

End User wrote:

Vrock wrote:

You PC guys

Why the heck do you hang out here?

Because I can. At one time, PC hardware interested me, before it became just another appliance. Old habits die hard.

End User wrote:

This is a PC hardware site. What did you expect?

Exactly what I got.

Vrock wrote:

clone wrote:

I just priced out a complete Core i3 540 unit with 8gb's of ram, MSI mobo, 500gb hdd, 2 X DVDrw, 500 watt 2X6pin PCIe psu, case, and AMD HD 6950 1gb video card for $591.00 + tax, free shipping.

that is worlds above PS3 or Xbox 360.

That also is a best case scenario, doesn't come with Blu-ray, and it's still more than twice what a PS3 would cost you at any store in the US.

Blu-Ray isn't necessary with a decent internet connection.

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Nutmeg wrote:

Vrock wrote:

clone wrote:

I just priced out a complete Core i3 540 unit with 8gb's of ram, MSI mobo, 500gb hdd, 2 X DVDrw, 500 watt 2X6pin PCIe psu, case, and AMD HD 6950 1gb video card for $591.00 + tax, free shipping.

that is worlds above PS3 or Xbox 360.

That also is a best case scenario, doesn't come with Blu-ray, and it's still more than twice what a PS3 would cost you at any store in the US.

Blu-Ray isn't necessary with a decent internet connection.

Says you. Some of us like our movies in the best quality possible, on physical format, legally.

Vrock wrote:

At one time, PC hardware interested me, before it became just another appliance.

It has been an "appliance" as far back as 1977 with the release of the Apple II.

I've been an enthusiast for 30 years. There were some dull times in the 90's (Microsoft domination) but from 2000 to the present there has been a steady escalation in tech that has been fascinating to watch.