TR Forums

Skyrim seems to be the game of the year, and since it's not overly expensive, I would like to buy it, but only as a physical boxed version. Does anyone know if it's DRM infected or not? I'm finding mixed responses everywhere...

I don't want to have a game with DRM, I brought Bioshock in a store once, and I've learned the lesson, never again.

And, by the way. When DX:HR came out, I made an exception and signed to a Steam service and brought it from Steam. So I have the game which is tied to Steam patching service, yet another online service with passwords and EULAs, and is not playable unless I have Internet connection available all times. Does anyone know if there is a way to get rid of the Steam game by exchanging it to a physical copy and terminating the Steam account?

Theoretically, since it's a licence, I should not be tied to one sort of media like Steam only/DVD only, but in reality it seems that it's worst of all worlds, so you don't own the physical copy, and you don't own the rights to exchange the media of the product you have a licence for.

I am in the opposite position. I bought it (i think via steam), but i do NOT want it anymore. i wanna sell it. can i?

Skyrim uses steam, even on boxed copies.

You do not need an always-on internet connection to use Steam (unlike, say Ubisoft), you can load steam in offline mode.

Unfortunately, this means you probably won't be able to resell it.

thegleek wrote:

I am in the opposite position. I bought it (i think via steam), but i do NOT want it anymore. i wanna sell it. can i?

Actually, yes, that's a good question. If I can sell the Steam DX:HR version, I could just order the retail/boxed version.

Madman wrote:

Actually, yes, that's a good question. If I can sell the Steam DX:HR version, I could just order the retail/boxed version.

That wouldn't gain you anything (unless you want a DVD that you can toss at people, or really like boxes). Like Skyrim, DX:HR is a Steamworks game, and thus requires Steam. In the boxed version, you get an install DVD (which is only really useful if you have a limited internet connection), a small pamphlet telling you how to control your character, some other papers (registration, ads, whatever), and.... a Steam registration key for the game.

That is, if you buy a boxed copy, you end up with the same - the Steam version of the game.

Voldenuit wrote:

You do not need an always-on internet connection to use Steam (unlike, say Ubisoft), you can load steam in offline mode.

Unfortunately, this means you probably won't be able to resell it.

I'm not worried about reselling, I'm not planning to. I just want hassle free experience.

Off-line mode still disables staying with older patch versions, requires Steam stuff on PC, fast Internet on install, ton of EULAs, reconfiguration on install and stuff, remembering yet another unique password, and very strong one, since it's money related. I just don't feel comfortable with that stuff. I want a retail copy so that I don't have to remember and worry about all this extra stuff that's only adding n-layers of problems without any benefits whatsoever.

You don't have to register your payment provider/credit card info with Steam to play Skyrim you know, if you buy the box version. The UELA is just that, another one you're either going to accept or sadly exclude yourself from another useful service. As for downloading updates, installing and configuring, Steam has only made that easier, because it's fully automatic. I'd say that's a benefit.

BTW, your concerns as to the password for Steam are valid of course, but you are using a proper password store and individual strong passwords for every service anyway, aren't you? If not, now is as good a time as any. Get something like Keepass, store your password database on Dropbox and change all your passwords for great justice!

Madman wrote:

Voldenuit wrote:

You do not need an always-on internet connection to use Steam (unlike, say Ubisoft), you can load steam in offline mode.

Unfortunately, this means you probably won't be able to resell it.

I'm not worried about reselling, I'm not planning to. I just want hassle free experience.

Off-line mode still disables staying with older patch versions, requires Steam stuff on PC, fast Internet on install, ton of EULAs, reconfiguration on install and stuff, remembering yet another unique password, and very strong one, since it's money related. I just don't feel comfortable with that stuff. I want a retail copy so that I don't have to remember and worry about all this extra stuff that's only adding n-layers of problems without any benefits whatsoever.

requiring a 60 mb client is hardly a hassle. Fast internet is only required for patching if you bought it out of the box, Two EULAs instead of one is hardly a 'ton', and it is of course your own decision to store financial information in Steam - there is nothing making the financial aspect required if you purchase the game on disk.

pikaporeon wrote:

it is of course your own decision to store financial information in Steam - there is nothing making the financial aspect required if you purchase the game on disk.

However, even if you don't have any financial information (credit card #) stored on Steam, owning a number of games on Steam can still constitute a significant financial value, which I suppose could count as "money related".

I don't agree with Madman that having games on Steam is "without any benefits whatsoever", but there *are* also drawbacks, and some might be more concerned about this than others.

Stargazer wrote:

I don't agree with Madman that having games on Steam is "without any benefits whatsoever", but there *are* also drawbacks, and some might be more concerned about this than others.

All the games I brought are: pop the DVD in, autorun runs setup, asks for install key, 2 min, the game is ready for play. It really doesn't get any easier than that. Why would I want anything else?

Skyrim is actually a good game to try out steam with if you've never used it before. You'll get all the patches, have practically one-click access to mods, and can see all the achievements etc. your steam friends are having in the same game (as it is such a time sink it's likely that any of your steam friends will be playing it at the same time too).

I'm not saying there aren't "some" legitimate concerns that it's possible to have with steam... but you should have jumped on board when it was on sale for the release of the steamworks and beth's modding tools. (a week ago). Good time to try out a digital distribution system and see if you like it or hate it. I think you might realise some of your "dislikes" of steam will turn out to be things that you can switch off and/or learn to appreciate.

Madman wrote:

Stargazer wrote:

I don't agree with Madman that having games on Steam is "without any benefits whatsoever", but there *are* also drawbacks, and some might be more concerned about this than others.

All the games I brought are: pop the DVD in, autorun runs setup, asks for install key, 2 min, the game is ready for play. It really doesn't get any easier than that. Why would I want anything else?

Cause when you lose said disc, you can just redownload your game on a new PC in another country via steam. :/

You don't have to go google for latest patches.

It can sync your saved games with some games if you want it to.

The true negatives of steam would be:
-could become a monopoly in the future... (unlikely)
-no resale value of your games (can't sell them)... though you haven't been able to sell used PC games for quite a while due to all the other DRM out there
-can become addictive / sales can make you spend lots of <$5 purchases
-need to be online for the very first activation/download then can switch to offline mode forever if you really wanted to.

yogibbear wrote:

Skyrim is actually a good game to try out steam with if you've never used it before. I think you might realise some of your "dislikes" of steam will turn out to be things that you can switch off and/or learn to appreciate.

I have brought a game via Steam - DX:HR. I actually paid 2x the price because I'm located in Europe for it. And I can't stand the fact that the game is tied to a mercy of some dudes online. I already had troubles with Bioshock. I popped the DVD in, and it went sorry, the servers are off-line, for a day. So I had a retail DVD, I had a retail DVD key and the thing was useless.

My licence is the CD-key, that is how it should be done.

Madman wrote:

yogibbear wrote:

Skyrim is actually a good game to try out steam with if you've never used it before. I think you might realise some of your "dislikes" of steam will turn out to be things that you can switch off and/or learn to appreciate.

I have brought a game via Steam - DX:HR. I actually paid 2x the price because I'm located in Europe for it. And I can't stand the fact that the game is tied to a mercy of some dudes online. I already had troubles with Bioshock. I popped the DVD in, and it went sorry, the servers are off-line, for a day. So I had a retail DVD, I had a retail DVD key and the thing was useless.

My licence is the CD-key, that is how it should be done.

Bioshock's problem is the crappy Securom authentication check. That was BS. I raged all over 2k Liz about that kerfuffle.

Madman wrote:

When DX:HR came out, I made an exception and signed to a Steam service and brought it from Steam. So I have the game which is tied to Steam patching service, yet another online service with passwords and EULAs, and is not playable unless I have Internet connection available all times.

I am certainly glad to see that people are still perpetuating this myth without doing an inkling of research. Heck even Google the dang phrase! ?falls off soapbox.

Nifty!

tanker27 wrote:

Madman wrote:

When DX:HR came out, I made an exception and signed to a Steam service and brought it from Steam. So I have the game which is tied to Steam patching service, yet another online service with passwords and EULAs, and is not playable unless I have Internet connection available all times.

I am certainly glad to see that people are still perpetuating this myth without doing an inkling of research. Heck even Google the dang phrase! ?falls off soapbox.

Ok, try to install the game on a laptop, while travelling on a train.

The same will happen if:
1) Internet goes down.
2) Steam goes down.
3) Lawsuit is filled against content provider.
4) Great firewall of Europe is built.
5) Supporting servers seems infeasible for the content provider.
7) Someone buys/blocks steampowered.com domain.
etc.

Off-line mode is only good till you have a working connection and password saved. If you have unchecked the remember me, and the connection breaks off, you can't go into off-line mode. So you have to be in an off-line mode before the network breaks down to launch the game. Happened already with DX:HR, my network provider glitched, as it happens time after time, I launched the Steam and it said sorry.

Firestarter wrote:

Get something like Keepass

Been using that for years. Best password management utility. ever.

Firestarter wrote:

store your password database on Dropbox and change all your passwords for great justice!

Now, THAT doesn't sound good to me at all. I would -never- trust anything I have to be stored with dropbox, or any public storage cloud. Even if the db file is encrypted.

Madman wrote:

Stargazer wrote:

I don't agree with Madman that having games on Steam is "without any benefits whatsoever", but there *are* also drawbacks, and some might be more concerned about this than others.

All the games I brought are: pop the DVD in, autorun runs setup, asks for install key, 2 min, the game is ready for play. It really doesn't get any easier than that. Why would I want anything else?

I actually find it more convenient to install games from Steam.

Sure, installing from DVD tends to be faster, but I rarely find it necessary to have a game installed *right away*, and in return I don't need to track down a DVD to install it, the installation process tends to have fewer steps (and I don't need to stay at my computer to advance the process at certain steps), and it's much rarer that you need to enter a CD-key (and when you do, you can usually copy/paste it). You also don't need to put a disc in your drive to play the game (heck, you don't even *need* an optical drive).

Also, actually *buying* the games on Steam tends to be easier/faster than either going to some retail store or ordering it online (and in some cases you might be able to benefit from one of the nice Steam sales).

You also don't have to keep track of a DVD (and associated CD-keys), which means that you don't have to worry about losing or damaging them. This also means that you don't have to keep the discs with you (good if you want to install a game while on an extended trip, or if you move).


In addition, Steam keeps your games patched for you (unless you tell it not to), which makes it much easier to keep your games up to date. There's also a much lower risk of being in the situation of wanting to play a game only to notice that it's not patched, and you will need to wait to first patch it (usually not a concern for games that are entirely off-line, but then you still have the benefit of running a fully updated game (patches are *usually* beneficial)).


All in all, I'm (usually) not only willing to pay equal money for getting a game on Steam (compared to buying a disc-only version), I (usually) actually consider it a value-add, and would be willing to pay a bit more (or wait a bit longer to get it).


Does Steam have its problems/limitations? Yes.
Does it also have benefits? Yes.

*For me*, that's a trade-off I'm not only *willing* to make, I'm usually *eager* to make it.


edit: Oh. I forgot to mention that (as mentioned by yogibbear earlier) if the game uses Steam Cloud, you can not only install it wherever you are (without the need for a disc), you can also continue playing with your own save files.

yogibbear wrote:

Bioshock's problem is the crappy Securom authentication check. That was BS. I raged all over 2k Liz about that kerfuffle.

Interestingly enough, Bioshock no longer uses SecuROM on Steam.

Madman wrote:

Ok, try to install the game on a laptop, while travelling on a train.

That's the most bizarrely limited scenario I've ever heard of.

As someone who worked offshore for 4 years with usually no net connection, I can safely say that I had no problem at all playing my Steam games while offshore. Yes it requires you to install while you have a net connection available, but if you're organised and not being difficult just for the sake of being difficult, that's hardly a limitation. There was not a single non-online game in my Steam collection I couldn't play while working offshore if I wanted to*.

*Actually that's not true. I couldn't play Company of Heroes unless I remembered to bring the CD. Which is exactly the opposite problem .

Just as Mentawl outlined. I actually Install my games to a bootcamp partition on my Mac and am rarely online with it. Unless you ARE trying to be difficult there is no game that will not run in offline mode unless it is some older game that pre dates Steam but that is a rare occasion.

Most Steam games that I'm familiar with only require the Internet to be on every once and a while for single-player. Naturally you won't earn achievements or be able to play online, but "Offline Mode" exists for a reason.

Mentawl wrote:

Madman wrote:

Ok, try to install the game on a laptop, while travelling on a train.

That's the most bizarrely limited scenario I've ever heard of.

Agreed. If this is the reason that you don't like Steam (because it limits your gaming options during rail travel), then you probably don't have a very strong case.

TurtlePerson2 wrote:

Agreed. If this is the reason that you don't like Steam (because it limits your gaming options during rail travel), then you probably don't have a very strong case.

Limits your game *installation* options during rail travel.

(and in that case having a purely physical copy is only a benefit if you actually happen to have the DVD with you on the train)

Mentawl wrote:

Madman wrote:

Ok, try to install the game on a laptop, while travelling on a train.

That's the most bizarrely limited scenario I've ever heard of.

No, it's not. Some people have jobs on a train, or may have jobs that require them to travel by train. Not cool to marginalize people man, that's a legitimate issue.
Also, retail boxes that sell games with steam are illegal. That violates the first-sale doctrine, and all it would take for this to end is one of several scenarios:
1: Lawsuit by someone who has the time and money.
2: We quit buying retail games with steam.
3: Gamestop has a fit and does both 1&2.
4: EFF or some other consumer organization steps up to the plate.

Steam blatantly price gouges and limits your rights, and all it would take to stop this is the community waking up and doing something. People need to stop being spineless jellyfish.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Also, retail boxes that sell games with steam are illegal. That violates the first-sale doctrine, and all it would take for this to end is one of several scenarios:

BAH, Really. Please cite the LAW in its fullest.

And this Just in case you THINK you know the law.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Mentawl wrote:

Madman wrote:

Ok, try to install the game on a laptop, while travelling on a train.

That's the most bizarrely limited scenario I've ever heard of.

No, it's not. Some people have jobs on a train, or may have jobs that require them to travel by train. Not cool to marginalize people man, that's a legitimate issue.

Do these people also routinely bring all their DVDs with them on the train in case they decide to install a new game on a whim (while traveling on the train), and/or do they never have the opportunity to pre-install the games from Steam before stepping on the train?

I would actually expect that lots of people who travel frequently would *benefit* from using Steam, since they wouldn't need to lug their DVDs with them.

Also, retail boxes that sell games with steam are illegal.

uhm...

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Also, retail boxes that sell games with steam are illegal. That violates the first-sale doctrine, and all it would take for this to end is one of several scenarios:
1: Lawsuit by someone who has the time and money.
2: We quit buying retail games with steam.
3: Gamestop has a fit and does both 1&2.
4: EFF or some other consumer organization steps up to the plate.

There are actually several boxed software products that are sold as single user licenses. You may have heard of some of them such as "Microsoft Windows" or "Microsoft Office" or even "Mac OS X."

First-sale doctrine essentially doesn't exist when it comes to computer software. It's all sold as a license (read any EULA). Some might argue that the license loophole doesn't actually prevent first-sale doctrine, but so far no one has actually taken it to court far enough to find out. Keep in mind that first-sale doctrine was invented before computers came to be. It didn't used to be very easy to make copies of something. This is just a good example of the law on the books not keeping up with technology.

By the way, were you the one who started the anti-Steam troll thread a few months back? I want to make sure that I'm actually participating in a discussion and not just feeding a troll.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Mentawl wrote:

Madman wrote:

Ok, try to install the game on a laptop, while travelling on a train.

That's the most bizarrely limited scenario I've ever heard of.

No, it's not. Some people have jobs on a train, or may have jobs that require them to travel by train. Not cool to marginalize people man, that's a legitimate issue.

Note : the OP stated a limit was -installing- games on a train, not playing games on the train. I was pointing out that if you install them while you -do- have a net connection, there will likely be no issue playing on the train. Actually installing a game on a train is something that would happen so irregularly (I would think) that it's hardly a valid use-case. Please read the posts before you criticise my comments . If you had, you'd have realised that I used to have a far more limited travel situation, and pointed out that Steam was never a detriment to my ability to game on my laptop while at work without a net connection - indeed it was extremely helpful, as I did not need to cart any discs about with me.

TurtlePerson2 wrote:

First-sale doctrine essentially doesn't exist when it comes to computer software. It's all sold as a license (read any EULA). Some might argue that the license loophole doesn't actually prevent first-sale doctrine, but so far no one has actually taken it to court far enough to find out. Keep in mind that first-sale doctrine was invented before computers came to be. It didn't used to be very easy to make copies of something. This is just a good example of the law on the books not keeping up with technology.

Read my last comment and the link provided. Someone did try and take a software company to court over this and lost.....badly lost.

A federal appeals court said that software makers can use shrink-wrap and click-wrap licenses to forbid the transfer or resale of their wares, an apparent gutting of the so-called first-sale doctrine.

The first-sale doctrine is an affirmative defense to copyright infringement that allows legitimate owners of copies of copyrighted works to resell those copies. That defense, the court said, is “unavailable to those who are only licensed to use their copies of copyrighted works.”

Essentially your CD key is your license with a EULA to back it up. first-sale doctrine does not apply to software.