Personal computing discussed
Moderators: renee, mac_h8r1, Nemesis
nerdrage wrote:Why would the AC-to-DC power transformer in a laptop power plug be any less susceptible to surges than the AC-to-DC power transformer in a desktop?
superjawes wrote:I am not sure if there is a "built in surge protector," but functionally speaking, an AC to DC converter would be able to absorb a surge of electricity with the components inside. Now a good burst of electricity might kill your transformer, but it should protect your laptop from getting fried.
malebolgia wrote:I've almost always use power strips for desktops to protect from power surges.
absurdity wrote:I'm no electricity whiz, but there is a significant difference between a simple power strip and an actual surge protector, right?
westom wrote:absurdity wrote:I'm no electricity whiz, but there is a significant difference between a simple power strip and an actual surge protector, right?
Read manufacturer spec numbers to see the difference. A power strip protector claims near zero protection and can give a surge even more potentially destructive paths through adjacent appliances. A power strip is zero protection and does not give the surge more destructively paths.
just brew it! wrote:Joules are taught even in high school science. Surges that are destructive can be as much as hundreds of thousands of joules. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. As in always.Manufacturer's specs aren't particularly helpful for people who don't know what joules are, or how many are typically carried in a lightning-induced power surge.
westom wrote:just brew it! wrote:Manufacturer's specs aren't particularly helpful for people who don't know what joules are, or how many are typically carried in a lightning-induced power surge.
Joules are taught even in high school science.
westom wrote:A device called a protector and located adjacent to an appliance must either block or absorb that energy
westom wrote:How do its hundreds of joules make hundreds of thousands of joules disappear?
westom wrote:Such protectors even have a history of creating house fires.
westom wrote:Facilities that can never have damage always earth a 'whole house' protector.
westom wrote:A protector is only as effective as its low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.
westom wrote:Verses grossly undersized protectors
westom wrote:that do not even claim protection from a typically destructive surge.
westom wrote:Honesty means a perspective only possible with numbers.
trackerben wrote:I've seen this gig before. A new forum opens on AC surge protection, and westom and/or bud show up.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread. ... 654&page=2
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1866584
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showth ... p=22042711
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1372106
Captain Ned wrote:Ah, so this is just like the '80s college tours of the scripted Timothy Leary/G. Gordon Liddy "debates", no?
bud-- wrote:Westom goggles for "surge" to post his wisdom.
A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.
The most critical component of any protection system even 100 years ago: single point earth ground.The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.
westom wrote:bud-- wrote:Westom goggles for "surge" to post his wisdom.
Bud is paid to post here. His job is to promote protectors that do not claim protection. He has followed me everywhere to post attacks. Why did he join yesterday? It is his job. He joins discussions to attack me. It is his job.
Ask bud for numeric specs for any plug-in protector. He refuses. Honesty means facts supported by numbers. bud cannot post manufacturer numbers. Those protection spec numbers do not exist. His very first post is to attack the messenger. To make subjective claims. To protect sales.
Honesty says where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Then learn what page 17 of his NIST citation says:A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.
westom wrote:Bud is paid to post here. His job is to promote protectors that do not claim protection.
westom wrote:Ask bud for numeric specs for any plug-in protector. He refuses. Honesty means facts supported by numbers. bud cannot post manufacturer numbers. Those protection spec numbers do not exist.
westom wrote:Honesty says where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.
westom wrote:Then learn what page 17 of his NIST citation says:
westom wrote:Bud recommends protectors that clamp ... to nothing.
westom wrote:Reality: it sometimes clamps a surge to earth destructively via any nearby appliance. IEEE citation, page 42 figure 8, shows a protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground. It earths a surge *8000 volts* destructively through a nearby TV.
westom wrote:He never posts engineering facts.
westom wrote:No earth ground means no effective protection.
westom wrote:Why do facilities that can never have damage always earth a ‘whole house’ protector. Informed facilities use a less expensive solution defined by the IEEE as “99.5% to 99.9%” of the protection.
westom wrote:Informed consumers install protectors from more responsible companies including GE, Intermatic, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer (Eaton), ABB, and Leviton.
cphite wrote:So you're saying that you are personally so large a threat to the power strip industry that they actually hire guys like Bud to follow you around on the internet and dispute things that you write on forums?
westom wrote:A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As was understood even 100 years ago. Only solution always found in any facility that cannot have damage: proper earthing and a 'whole house' protector. Cost: about $1 per protected appliance. Best protection for a laptop is the same solution found in every telco CO - that cannot have damage. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector. What is necessary so that a power strip protector does not cause a house fire? A properly earthed ‘whole house’ protector. Be concerned about sale promoters who even ignore the fire problem.
ludi wrote:I'm going to break my own popcorn rule for a moment. First, the whole-house surge protector is a great idea IF you have a spare 240V breaker position in your service panel and IF you both have access to your panel and rights to modify it. For many people living in multiple-unit residences as well as homeowners with fully-populated 100A or 150A service panels (still extremely common around these parts), they don't have that option either (a) at all or (b) without spending several thousand dollars on a panel retrofit. Second, the impedance difference between the neutral bus bar at the service panel and the ground connection at a wall outlet over 100 feet of a #12 copper service run will be roughly one-fourth of an Ohm, plus perhaps another Ohm or two of reactive impedance. This will not meaningfully cripple the ordinary operation of a MOV stack located at the end of that wire run.
ludi wrote:First, the whole-house surge protector is a great idea IF you have a spare 240V breaker position in your service panel and IF you both have access to your panel and rights to modify it. .
westom wrote:Read more lies and half truths from his 'cut and paste' replies.
westom wrote:He even ignores that his own citation says. A plug-in protector (no earth ground) is "useless".
westom wrote:Meanwhile, if that protector does protection, then he quoted a number for each type of surge. If a ten year old can find them, then he must be nine years old. Reality: he cannot post what does not exist.
westom wrote:He will post endlessly because he is paid to protect profits.
westom wrote:A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
westom wrote:What is necessary so that a power strip protector does not cause a house fire? A properly earthed ‘whole house’ protector. Be concerned about sale promoters who even ignore the fire problem.
westom wrote:Impedance on a 100 foot 12 AWG wire is not that tiny. Wire resistance is well below 0.2 ohms. But wire impedance to a surge is more like 120 ohms. 120 ohms times a tiny 100 amp surge means the receptacle, during a surge, is at something less than 12,000 volts.
westom wrote:If a ground wire from the breaker box to earth ground goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then protection is compromised. That ground wire must go through a foundation and down to earth. Wire length to single point earth ground is critical.
Those restrictions do not apply. A 'whole house' protector is often attached to the side of a breaker box. Or to the meter pan. Utility’s meter reader girl can even install one behind the meter. Everyone has numerous options to install a best and least expensive solution.