Personal computing discussed
Moderators: renee, SpotTheCat, Nemesis
DeadOfKnight wrote:Do I really need a high wattage one that can power my PC for 15 minutes?
JohnC wrote:I was looking at these. This one looks like a good choice and has a good rating on Newegg:DeadOfKnight wrote:Do I really need a high wattage one that can power my PC for 15 minutes?
No, you probably don't. Just make sure your system doesn't have peak power consumption larger than the UPS can tolerate without being overloaded. You should measure your system's peak power (while running some program which will utilize maximum GPU and CPU resources) with a tool like "Kill-a-watt", or something similar.
Personally, I would go with some better models, like for example this model series from Cyberpower:
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/produc ... eries.html
These units have AVR function (which is useful for prolonging the life of batteries) and provide the sine wave output while running on battery, unlike the "stepped approximation to sine wave" output on cheaper models (some poorly-designed power supplies can only work with UPS units which produce the real/pure sine wave output). Plus they are pretty well-built units overall and have the pretty, glowing displays which display various stats, if you're into such things
Also, I suggest checking other places while shopping for hardware, like Amazon - Newegg's prices are NOT always the cheapest
DeadOfKnight wrote:I'm just using it to give my expensive gaming PC some extra TLC, it's nothing mission critical or anything like that.
westom wrote:1) In battery backup mode, a UPS outputs some of the dirtiest power a PC might ever see. No problem. Because voltage much worse is also ideal power for all computers. Any 'cleaning' done by a UPS is completely undone inside the computer. And then superior 'cleaning' is done inside the computer to that even dirtier power.
This 120 volt sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Yes, that is a sine wave output. Because square waves and spike are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves - as taught in high school math. They did not lie. They just hoped you would make assumptions rather than demand spec numbers that define 'clean'.
A UPS does not protect hardware. Its provides temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Time to save data or whatever.
2) Now, how to select a UPS. First determine all power consumption. One recommended using a Kil-A-Watt. A good idea. But most PCs (even with 800 watt supplies) consume about 200 watts; never more than 350 watts. Add the monitor (ie from a label where it power cord connects). Let's assume your total load is 350 watts.
A UPS is made as cheaply as possible. Its battery life expectancy is about three years. A UPS should still provide sufficient power three years later after the battery degrades. So a minimal selection might be a 500 watt UPS for that 350 watt maximum load. 500 watts provides a safety margin necessary for battery degradation and other technical reasons we need not discuss.
3) You considered a UPS as somehow better than a protector? Read spec numbers. How many joules in that power strip? Notice less joules in a UPS. Both are doing near zero protection. And just enough above zero so they can hype it as a surge protector. Again, every answer is useful only if defined by numbers. Best hardware protection is done elsewhere for much less money. That UPS is temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Nothing more.
westom wrote:This 120 volt sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts.
westom wrote:A UPS does not protect hardware.
JohnC wrote:How the **** do you know it has a "spike of up to 270 volts"? Any sources?
westom wrote:JohnC wrote:How the **** do you know it has a "spike of up to 270 volts"? Any sources?
I don't wait for anyone to tell me. I ignore hearsay. And have less respect for subjective claims from advertising and a post without relevant numbers.
just brew it! wrote:The 'scope trace he linked to looks fairly clean to me. Yes, there's some visible distortion near the zero-crossing of the waveform, but it is *much* better than the typical "stepped sinewave approximation" put out by most UPSes.
Bauxite wrote:FYI, this westom guy is a crackpot who rambles all over the internet on any threads about ups/surge protectors/lightning, save yourself the trouble of triggering the avalanche of noise by getting into an argument.
westom wrote:UPS does virtually no surge protection.
Bauxite wrote:
-Double conversion ("online") ups can be found for under 1k brand new, but I still wouldn't call them cheap or necessary for most home gear.
Jason181 wrote:I also have the Cyperpower CP1500 linked above, and I'm very happy with it, although as mentioned above, for most setups it is overkill. Pretty much only crossfire/sli setups need apply. I presume the 600w model would suit you just fine. I got my CP1500 for $180/free shipping I think (waited for a deal), so if for some reason you do decide to go with it, I'd wait for a better price than $220 at newegg right now.
Bauxite wrote:FYI, this westom guy is a crackpot who rambles all over the internet on any threads about ups/surge protectors/lightning, save yourself the trouble of triggering the avalanche of noise by getting into an argument.
DeadOfKnight wrote:Bauxite wrote:FYI, this westom guy is a crackpot who rambles all over the internet on any threads about ups/surge protectors/lightning, save yourself the trouble of triggering the avalanche of noise by getting into an argument.
ROFLMFAO that's hilarious, why would anyone care that much about surge protectors?
JohnC wrote:DeadOfKnight wrote:Bauxite wrote:FYI, this westom guy is a crackpot who rambles all over the internet on any threads about ups/surge protectors/lightning, save yourself the trouble of triggering the avalanche of noise by getting into an argument.
ROFLMFAO that's hilarious, why would anyone care that much about surge protectors?
Bad case of OCD? I've seen that happen before - people get obsessed with some particular topic (anything from computer operating systems to people's race/nationality to all-wheel-drive systems in particular car brand ) and can't prevent themselves from spamming each forum/message board related to particular topic with some redundant, repetitive assumptions with no valid references...
JohnC wrote:I've personally seen inexpensive consumer-grade UPS units that were severely damaged (melted/cracked casing and permanently destroyed internal circuitry) by nearby lightning stike but which still protected all the equipment that was connected (and running) to them during the strike, whereas the similar equipment in same house that was NOT protected by any power protection system was permanently damaged.
westom wrote:So a refrigerator, washing machine, furnace, every dimmer switch, every bathroom GFCI, all clocks, and every smoke detector were also destroyed? If all those devices (not on a UPS) were not destroyed, then your conclusion is classic junk science reasoning. You cannot just ignore examples that contradict your conclusions. Or do you have invisible UPSes on those other undamaged appliances?
Reality. Appliances have superior internal protection. A surge, too tiny to harm most appliances, easily destroyed a grossly undersized (less robust) UPS. Had one 'whole house' protector been installed, then even the UPS (and a few other less robust appliances) would be unharmed.
The scam is quite popular and easily believed when ignoring what a surge is. It is an electric current. If incoming to a UPS, then the same current is also outgoing via attached appliances. A current existed simultaneously on both sides of that UPS. But the UPS was so grossly undersized as to be severely damaged long after that current was inside everything. Appliances, conducting that same current, obviously demonstrated superior internal protection - were unharmed. Those appliances must protect themselves because a UPS connects AC mains directly to each appliance. Even the manufacturer says that UPS has near zero protection. Or do you ignore numbers?
Well, many think a surge struck a UPS, did damage, and stopped. Even elementary school science says eletricity does not work that way. But the scam is easily promoted when one only uses observation; forgets to include basic science. Knowledge only from observation is classic junk science. Knowledge requires learning (and remembering) concepts even taught in elementary school science.
That is the point. So many are even nasty because the scam so easily manipulated them. They foolishly thought a UPS or protector, that does not even claim protection, has somehow performed magic. UPS numbers do not claim that protection. The UPS was so poorly designed as to be harmed by a tiny surge that could not damage most other household appliances. Better is to attack the messenger rather than admit that adverising has so easily manipulated them.
Many also believe power cycling destroys light bulbs only because a bulb fail on power on. Power cycling does not harm bulbs. But many, with so little ability to learn, instead become an expert by using observation. They saw a burn fail during power on and therefore know it all. So many also love to waste $85 on a $4 power strip with some ten cent protector parts. Or will spend over $1000 on a UPS that only accomplishes what a $60 UPS does. Because hearsay and advertising (not facts and numbers) has educated them. Those, the most easily scammed, will even post disparaging remarks.
UPS only useful function is temporary power during blackouts. Your failed UPS demonstrated that superior protection was already inside appliances. Damage from a current (maybe once every seven years) is routinely averted by earthing a 'whole house' protector. But that means learning over 100 years of well proven science. And remembering concept even taught in elementary school science.
A UPS was destroyed because the only effective protection was inside its attached appliances. UPS protected nothing - not even itself.
DeadOfKnight wrote:Ok, I admit I have no idea what your credentials are.
The answer was simple. For about $1 per protected appliance, install protection for everything. Even today's stoves need that protection. Protection even from direct lightning strikes. Its specification numbers say so. That solution is found in every facility that can never have damage including ones I worked on. Including military bases, nuclear hardened facilities, commercial radio stations. ham radio stations. all telephone COs (without exception), ships, and even munitions dumps.I was looking for a good surge protector when I thought to myself "Why not get an UPS and protect my PC from brown outs as well?"
westom wrote:Electronics, to create rock solid and low (5 VDC) voltages, converts 'dirty' or 'clean' UPS power to well over 300 volts (more than the 270 volt spikes). Then converts that to high voltage radio frequency spikes. Does not matter how clean UPS power is. First electronics make it 'dirtiest' Because a best electricity 'cleaner' is already inside electronic appliances. Making a $1000 UPS irrelevant and unnecessary. 'Cleaner' UPS power does little useful for electronics.
How do I know? I even designed this stuff. Why do I have an oscilloscope and others do not? I do this stuff.
And expect a useful post to include hard numbers such as 200 volts, 270 volts, and more than 300 volts. If you know otherwise, then post numbers rather than subjective denials. If you know 200 volt square waves with a 270 volt spike is harmful, then state what part is damaged. I already did. No parts are harmed.
Same for a brownout. Show this designer the part harmed by a brownout. Since every power off is also a long slow brownout. How often are your electronics destroyed by power off? And what part is harmed? None.
UPS does virtually no surge protection. Because existing protection already inside electronics is superior. And because no UPS manufacturer numbers claim anything more than near zero protection. A UPS typically claims less protection than a power strip. Don't take my word for it. Ignore any subjective post. Instead, read the hard numbers.
cphite wrote:And yet, despite your numbers, most folks who support PCs and servers have experienced issues with these machines when plugged into dirty power. Even if parts aren't being physically "harmed" there are potential memory issues, timing issues, crashing, etc.
westom wrote:JohnC wrote:I've personally seen inexpensive consumer-grade UPS units that were severely damaged (melted/cracked casing and permanently destroyed internal circuitry) by nearby lightning stike but which still protected all the equipment that was connected (and running) to them during the strike, whereas the similar equipment in same house that was NOT protected by any power protection system was permanently damaged.
So a refrigerator, washing machine, furnace, every dimmer switch
westom wrote:Reality.