Miguel Cabrera

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Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:10 pm

Unless something really weird happens (like Curtis Granderson somehow hitting 3 more HR in 2 innings), baseball has its first American League batting Triple Crown winner since Carl Yazstremski, making him one of a fraternity of 14. The National League hasn't had a batting Triple Crown winner since Ducky Medwick back in 1937. The last Major League batting Triple Crown winner was Mickey Mantle in 1956.

Good on 'ya mate. If we could shove the Sabermetrics people into the dust bin (they have a huge hard-on for Mike Trout and Wins Above Replacement) Cabrera would waltz to the MVP as a Triple Crown winner should.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:32 pm

Captain Ned wrote:Good on 'ya mate. If we could shove the Sabermetrics people into the dust bin (they have a huge hard-on for Mike Trout and Wins Above Replacement) Cabrera would waltz to the MVP as a Triple Crown winner should.


Triple crown is great and all, but yeah, WAR is really the better way to evaluate players. Don't worry, he'll get the MVP. The one thing about the tripple crown is that RBI is completely dependant upon teammates. But yeah, Trout is freaking amazing.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:36 pm

First time in 45 years and you still try to hold out Trout as superior to Cabrera? You can't even give the guy a few minutes at the top??

EDIT: The Triple Crown is now official. Trout all you want, but he's not done something that hasn't been done in 45 years.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:55 pm

Captain Ned wrote:Good on 'ya mate. If we could shove the Sabermetrics people into the dust bin (they have a huge hard-on for Mike Trout and Wins Above Replacement) Cabrera would waltz to the MVP as a Triple Crown winner should.


First, it's awesome that Miguel Cabrera achieved the Triple Crown. Cabrera is a truly gifted hitter.

But come on... Mike Trout is just as good on average as Cabrera and I'd say his 49 steals (and only caught 5 times) make up for the 14 HR difference. Most importantly you're completely disregarding defense. Trout is a arguably the best defender at one of the hardest positions in baseball. Miggy is a well below average at 3B. The Mike Trout argument isn't some trickery, it's just considering more than just hitting in the game of baseball. Trout has arguably the best rookie season EVER and one of the best center fielder seasons ever. I don't get the anti-Trout stance at all, why discredit him? Why can't they both be having historically great seasons?
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:51 pm

Would it help to know that I'm an old fart of 48 and steeped in traditional baseball? I don't give a squat for your modern stats, all I know is I want Cabrera on my team.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:29 pm

I'd take either one of them on my team! If I had to pick one or the other I'd take Trout. But if someone said sorry, you get Cabrera, I would be perfectly happy.

That being said, Trout for MVP. Hitting stats are roughly equivalent (Cabrera holds a .036 lead in OPS). But Trout base stealing prowess and better defensive accumen lead me to give him the nod over Cabrera for the MVP.

Still, both had tremendous seasons.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:27 am

Washer wrote:But come on... Mike Trout is just as good on average as Cabrera and I'd say his 49 steals (and only caught 5 times) make up for the 14 HR difference.

(Disclosure - I live in Detroit and been a Tiger fan 40+ years)

Lots of games are won or lost by one run. Unless Trout is stealing home a lot, I'd say its silly to compare stolen bases to home runs.
A pitcher can pitch a one hitter and still lose if he gives up a home run.
Stealing bases is nice, but come on, a homer puts you on the board. Also, a stolen base cant score multiple runs in one play (see: Grand Slam)

Case in point:
I love me some Rickey Henderson, and he has the stolen base record, but I love him even more for holding the record of lead off home runs to start a game.
What a way to demoralize your opponent from the get go.

Washer wrote:Trout is a arguably the best defender at one of the hardest positions in baseball. Miggy is a well below average at 3B. The Mike Trout argument isn't some trickery, it's just considering more than just hitting in the game of baseball. Trout has arguably the best rookie season EVER and one of the best center fielder seasons ever. I don't get the anti-Trout stance at all, why discredit him? Why can't they both be having historically great seasons?


I'll concede part of this to you, as Trout is great in the field. However, its not like Miggy is a DH or playing first base. He is a everyday third baseman; they dont call it the "hot corner" for nothing.
Third base is known as the "hot corner", because the third baseman is relatively close to the batter and most right-handed hitters tend to hit the ball hard in this direction. The third baseman needs good hand-eye coordination and quick reactions in order to catch hard line drives sometimes in excess of 125 miles per hour (201 km/h).[1] Third basemen often must begin in a position even closer to the batter if a bunt is expected, creating a hazard if the ball is instead hit sharply


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_baseman
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:58 am

Dposcorp wrote:
Washer wrote:But come on... Mike Trout is just as good on average as Cabrera and I'd say his 49 steals (and only caught 5 times) make up for the 14 HR difference.


I'll concede part of this to you, as Trout is great in the field. However, its not like Miggy is a DH or playing first base. He is a everyday third baseman; they dont call it the "hot corner" for nothing.


The problem is that he's a terrible defender at 3rd base and really only plays it because you Detroit has even worse defenders at 1st and DH (Prince Fielder and Delmon Young). You have to balance his offensive contribution to his defensive liability. And he's a pretty big liability at 3B. He loses almost 1/4th of his offensive contribution to his lack of range and overall poor defensive play.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:54 pm

Captain Ned wrote:Would it help to know that I'm an old fart of 48 and steeped in traditional baseball? I don't give a squat for your modern stats, all I know is I want Cabrera on my team.


No, it makes you look worse to be honest. The Trout vs Cabrera argument doesn't require any advanced statistics to see how Trout was clearly the better player this year. Trout was nearly as good at the plate, and several massive levels better at base running and most importantly defense.

Dposcorp wrote:(Disclosure - I live in Detroit and been a Tiger fan 40+ years)

Lots of games are won or lost by one run. Unless Trout is stealing home a lot, I'd say its silly to compare stolen bases to home runs.
A pitcher can pitch a one hitter and still lose if he gives up a home run.
Stealing bases is nice, but come on, a homer puts you on the board. Also, a stolen base cant score multiple runs in one play (see: Grand Slam)

Case in point:
I love me some Rickey Henderson, and he has the stolen base record, but I love him even more for holding the record of lead off home runs to start a game.
What a way to demoralize your opponent from the get go.

I'll concede part of this to you, as Trout is great in the field. However, its not like Miggy is a DH or playing first base. He is a everyday third baseman; they dont call it the "hot corner" for nothing.
Third base is known as the "hot corner", because the third baseman is relatively close to the batter and most right-handed hitters tend to hit the ball hard in this direction. The third baseman needs good hand-eye coordination and quick reactions in order to catch hard line drives sometimes in excess of 125 miles per hour (201 km/h).[1] Third basemen often must begin in a position even closer to the batter if a bunt is expected, creating a hazard if the ball is instead hit sharply


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_baseman


Stealing puts you in better position to score. If Trout is able to take second or third the chances he scores is far higher. Stealing has value in baseball, especially so when you steal at the rate and success level Trout does. Trout is also far more likely to score because he can beat out throws and other close calls. First and third base coaches have to consider when to tell the runner to attempt to take a base, you must be much more conservative with Cabrera than Trout. Trout has a lot of positive value on the bases, Cabrera has negative value.

It isn't like I'm talking 25 vs 40 steals here either... it's 49 vs 4.

Your "case in point"... is ridiculous. You Love Henderson more because of a stat based entirely on coincidence? Did Henderson have a special knack for lead off home runs? No... he has that "record" because he had a very long career and good power for a lead off hitter. You know who could day break this record though? Mike Trout!!!! He's the very prototype of the player to do it. Great speed? Check. High on base average? Check. Great power for his line up and field position? Check!

Cabrera has negative value has a fielder. He plays 3B because the Tigers don't have any other choice. Prince Fielder would be even worse and Cabrera is incapable of playing any defensive position other than 1B or 3B.

The Triple Crown is a great achievement but... come on. They're very close in hitting and nowhere even close in every other aspect of the game. If there were a MLB-wide MVP I'd honestly place Buster Posey or Ryan Braun closer to Trout than Cabrera.
Last edited by Washer on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Triple Crown? This about horse racin'?
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:12 pm

Washer wrote:............................
It isn't like I'm talking 25 vs 40 steals here either... it's 49 vs 4.

The Triple Crown is a great achievement but... come on. They're very close in hitting and nowhere even close in every other aspect of the game. If there were a MLB-wide MVP I'd honestly place Buster Posey or Ryan Braun closer to Trout than Cabrera.


You wanna talk numbers? Trout leads in stolen bases, OBP, and runs scored. Miggy leads in Avg, total hits by 23, doubles by 13 (theirs your stolen basse) HR by 14, RBI by 56, and SLG.
By the way, Trout had 41 more strikes outs. Way to move those runners. :)

Washer wrote:............................
The Triple Crown is a great achievement but... come on. They're very close in hitting and nowhere even close in every other aspect of the game. If there were a MLB-wide MVP I'd honestly place Buster Posey or Ryan Braun closer to Trout than Cabrera.

So Miggy did something that everyone is talking about, that was just done for the first time in 45 years, and all you can say is "come one?" Also, did u even looks at Braun's and Posey's stats?
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:52 pm

Dposcorp wrote:
Washer wrote:............................
It isn't like I'm talking 25 vs 40 steals here either... it's 49 vs 4.

The Triple Crown is a great achievement but... come on. They're very close in hitting and nowhere even close in every other aspect of the game. If there were a MLB-wide MVP I'd honestly place Buster Posey or Ryan Braun closer to Trout than Cabrera.


You wanna talk numbers? Trout leads in stolen bases, OBP, and runs scored. Miggy leads in Avg, total hits by 23, doubles by 13 (theirs your stolen basse) HR by 14, RBI by 56, and SLG.
By the way, Trout had 41 more strikes outs. Way to move those runners. :)

Washer wrote:............................
The Triple Crown is a great achievement but... come on. They're very close in hitting and nowhere even close in every other aspect of the game. If there were a MLB-wide MVP I'd honestly place Buster Posey or Ryan Braun closer to Trout than Cabrera.

So Miggy did something that everyone is talking about, that was just done for the first time in 45 years, and all you can say is "come one?" Also, did u even looks at Braun's and Posey's stats?


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/845 ... ards-field

Jonah Keri does a great job of breaking it down, far better than I ever could.

But it's simple... Mike Trout did more things of value for his team than Cabrera. Cabrera had a slightly better hitting year and a drastically worse defensive and base running year. Yes, it's great that Cabrera got the first Triple Crown in 45 years... his overall year was still worse. Similarly Buster Posey had much greater defensive value for his team and his offensive abilities as a catcher are especially rare. Braun is also just slightly worse at hitting but is better in all other areas of the game.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:05 pm

Cabrera's team is still playing. Trout's isn't. How valuable can he be?
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:55 pm

idchafee wrote:Cabrera's team is still playing. Trout's isn't. How valuable can he be?

That is not a good argument, Stiffie; you're better then that :)
If the Tigers did not make the post season, I would not say that about Miggy.

How about this question for everyone; If you were starting a team today, would you chose Miggy or Trout (or someone else), if you knew they were going to have the same exact numbers this next year that they had this year?

For me, fielding is about team work, so you can always plug people in at different places; just look out all the gold gloves they give out.

Hitting is all about that one person, basically going one on one, with the pitcher. Yeah, the fielders help get the guy out, but that is because the pitcher gets the guy to hit a grounder to short, or a pop up.

Its why I agreed with JV getting the MVP last year.

Baseball is a team sport, but those one on one, pitcher versus hitter match ups, are where games are won and lost.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Dposcorp wrote:How about this question for everyone; If you were starting a team today, would you chose Miggy or Trout (or someone else), if you knew they were going to have the same exact numbers this next year that they had this year?


Trout. He is younger and cost controlled for the next few years. The small amount that he is paid frees up money for other players. You can build a much better team around this sort of talent than you can by overpaying for Free Agents.


Dposcorp wrote:For me, fielding is about team work, so you can always plug people in at different places; just look out all the gold gloves they give out.

Hitting is all about that one person, basically going one on one, with the pitcher. Yeah, the fielders help get the guy out, but that is because the pitcher gets the guy to hit a grounder to short, or a pop up.


Have to disagree. You simply cannot look at the range of one fielder and compare them to other players. While you can have players with either flyball or groundball tendancies, it just shifts the defensive play to being more likely in the outfield or infield. Moreover, great defensive players are pretty easy to quantify: they make pitchers (particularly ground ball pitchers) look terrific. Even the best pitcher this year at inducing ground balls (Trevor Cahil at 61.2%) is still going to have over 38% of hits in the outfield. Pitchers can influence the likelihood of a GB or FB, but the defender still has to be able to make the correct read, get the right jump, and then still transition the ball and make the throw in under 2 seconds.

And golden gloves are a terrible measure of how good a defender someone is. Shoot, they keep giving them to Jeter because he makes impossible plays look natural, and then punts half of the "routine outs."
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:58 pm

Trout did what he did while missing the first 3+ weeks in AAA. That is pretty astounding. The argument can be made that Cabrera, OTOH, wasn't even the most valuable player on his team - that it was Verlander with his 9k per 9IP, 240-ish innings pitched, and low WHIP and low BB totals.

Still, no matter which of these two wins it won't be terribly controversial. I'm confident it'll be either Cabrera or Trout, and I"m fine with either. This isn't the head-scratching bewilderment that Terry Pendleton was in 1991 (when it should have been a pre-roids Barry Bonds, most likely).

Defensive metrics are still very much in flux, but Cabrera is a below-average defender in all of them. If they intend to keep him at 3B they need a SS with more range. Stephen Drew is a free agent. Good fit? Maybe. He should be cheap coming off a big injury and still obviously recovering this year, but I think he'll bounce back next year.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:33 am

I thought this was a pretty good argument for Trout: http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/1 ... trout.html
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Re: Miguel Cabrera

Postposted on Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:59 pm

Joe Posnanski is awesome. And that's a pretty fair write-up of the subject.
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