Help me understand..

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Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:14 pm

I'm trying to work out the overall hatred towards Windows 8, and in particular, Metro (I know it's not called that anymore but it's already stuck in my mind).

So as a touch interface, the impression I get is that it works quite well. So correct me if I'm wrong, but we're now just looking at its impracticality for desktops and other scenarios where poking at a screen really doesn't work.

I ask; in those scenarios, how often do you actually use the start menu? I'm a heavy PC user, doing all sorts of tasks from movie editing to game design to music recording. But I spend about 5 seconds finding the software I want, and the rest of my time is spent in that software, actually doing stuff. Does Windows 8 actually make it that much more difficult? You can still pin applications to the start bar in Explorer.

And in the end, the quickest way to find your app is to press the windows key, type what you want, and press enter. You can still do that in Windows 8.

So what am I missing?

-Rhys
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:38 pm

RhysAndrews wrote:So as a touch interface, the impression I get is that it works quite well. So correct me if I'm wrong, but we're now just looking at its impracticality for desktops and other scenarios where poking at a screen really doesn't work.
-Rhys


That's pretty much it. I've also heard complaints that, in the interest of making the OS more idiot-proof, MS has gone to greater lengths to hide "under-the-hood" settings, making changing certain settings or tweaks more convoluted for anyone that actually bothers to customize or delve more deeply into the OS. But I've not tried it myself.

The biggest reason enthusiasts "hate" Windows 8 is because some feel MS is basically gearing the OS to the lowest common denominator and in the process have chosen to eschew ease of use and general logic for simplicity, even with things that have worked well for years (ie, start menu). Essentially, they are worried MS is throwing away too many babies with the bathwater just so they can more closely emulate something that approximates Apple's business model. Enthusiasts and power users don't like to be treated like stupid children (and those that do, get a Mac - Oh SNAP!), regardless of how much of this is actually genuine.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:14 pm

RhysAndrews wrote:And in the end, the quickest way to find your app is to press the windows key, type what you want, and press enter. You can still do that in Windows 8.

I can almost tolerate Windows 8 if the search does not have to be broken up into Applications, Settings, and Files. Where you need more keystrokes/clicks to search if you are not looking for just apps.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:35 pm

Definitely not going to be able to help you understand but I'm in the same boat as you. Some people compare it to Vista and ME...which I think is completely wrong. If anything, you could compare it to the changes Windows XP made after Windows ME and 98 SE.

The only thing I don't like about the new "start menu" is that sometimes it takes extra clicks to do simple things. That being said, I don't know the ins and outs or shortcuts of it yet, so I'd imagine as soon as I do everything will be less annoying. Overall, I love Windows 8. I love the direction their heading in with the overall look and feel and I love the improvements they made under the hood.

And as for the so called "power users" not liking Windows 8 because of loss of control, I'd say go to linux. We don't use Windows because we love control. When was the last time you can say you had complete control over Windows? I personally use Windows because I enjoy DirectX games and like not having to search for hardware and software that's compatible.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:09 pm

@Flying Fox
Well really, it's 1 extra click. Instead of pressing enter, you click on the one you want. Is that enough to become intolerant of an entire operating system?

@cynan
The 'under the hood' settings as I understand it are missing from Metro but still available via control panel. At least that's how it is in the consumer preview.

@c1arity
Agreed.

My thoughts are..
I can understand if Windows 8 does not benefit you in any way, but I don't understand the hating on Microsoft as a result. This is a necessary step forward, and sacrifices are inevitable. We can't be so narrow minded that we expect an operating system tailored specifically for OUR needs and nobody elses. Microsoft seems to be succeeding in meeting the common ground for ALL devices and applications - something that even Apple hasn't mastered.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:27 pm

Well, I never quite understood the general disdain for Vista. Sure it had its issues, but was nowhere near as bad as some like to make out - and at the end of the day, not so very different from Windows 7.

Thanks to marketing and a popular mentality of being too lazy to always think for oneself, these sorts of reactions often don't need to be heavily based on reality/validity.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:07 pm

cynan wrote:Well, I never quite understood the general disdain for Vista. Sure it had its issues, but was nowhere near as bad as some like to make out - and at the end of the day, not so very different from Windows 7.

Thanks to marketing and a popular mentality of being too lazy to always think for oneself, these sorts of reactions often don't need to be heavily based on reality/validity.


7 is just Vista tuned a little and relaxed a little with default UAC settings- oh and Trim, which was about the only real reason to upgrade.

8 is just 7 with more tuning and a new start menu.

I think the differences to the start menu will annoy power users more, and everyone else will forget to whine about it after using it for a month.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:14 pm

RhysAndrews wrote:@Flying Fox
Well really, it's 1 extra click. Instead of pressing enter, you click on the one you want. Is that enough to become intolerant of an entire operating system?
It disrupts the workflow. I am an ok touch typist. I want both hands on the keyboard most of the time (that's why I prefer the nub on a notebook since I don't have to move my hand too far away from the asdfjkl; positions. Moving the hand to use the mouse to click is disruptive. Now you click on the different category, then what? You move the mouse again to the left on the found item, or you move the hand again back so you can hit Enter? (I do the latter) If you go all keyboard then you have to hit the down key once or twice, then hit Enter to change the category, then use the arrow keys again to navigate. It is a mess.

RhysAndrews wrote:@cynan
The 'under the hood' settings as I understand it are missing from Metro but still available via control panel. At least that's how it is in the consumer preview.
They certainly are not making it easy to access. Though I must say one probably should not need to change the control panel stuff so often, except may be the "Uninstall a Program" link (and even that is debatable).

Airmantharp wrote:8 is just 7 with more tuning and a new start menu.

I disagree. Memory management, scheduling, and other aspect of the OS has been substantially revamped (partly because of the goal to run on lesser-powered devices, a reversal from XP -> Vista where system requirements got much bloatedly heavier). AFAIK most I/O operations are now asynchronous, which is a big thing (and I like the new file transfer dialog). Heck, for the longest time I have been somewhat defending the use of Ribbon too, and I am actually ok with Explorer taking on Ribbon. In a way this is similar to the break from Windows 3.11 to Windows 95, with new programming model and all new UI. It may actually mean we should wait for the equivalent of "Windows 98" to really settle into the newer way of doing things. :o
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:14 am

Although i can't help you i wanted to share my impressions about Windows 8. Imo it's the worst OS for desktop PCs since it was designed so heavily with touch input. That said if they only allowed the user to have the start button and disable "Metro" (w/e it's called now) i wouldn't have a problem, but as far as i heard they are hard coding the metro UI to force developers make apps and certify them. So i don't think that moving forward they will give up on this and that's what urkes me the most. They will slowly but surely move into a closed OS a la Apple and that is not something i support.

TL;DR: F*ck x86 Windows 8.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:07 am

Arclight wrote:Although i can't help you i wanted to share my impressions about Windows 8. Imo it's the worst OS for desktop PCs since it was designed so heavily with touch input. That said if they only allowed the user to have the start button and disable "Metro" (w/e it's called now) i wouldn't have a problem, but as far as i heard they are hard coding the metro UI to force developers make apps and certify them. So i don't think that moving forward they will give up on this and that's what urkes me the most. They will slowly but surely move into a closed OS a la Apple and that is not something i support.
Then this "dual personality" problem will be even worse that they may as well release 2 OSes. This is the first step. I am much more interested to see how they can really fuse the 2 usage models in future iterations of the OS.

Arclight wrote:TL;DR: F*ck x86 Windows 8.

What about the x64 version? :P Or ARM-based non-tablet form factor? :o
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:21 am

5 things I think make PC users feel like win 8 "ignores" the pc space.

1) you can't boot to the desktop, you have use the live tiles. we've lost aero, we've lost backgrounds(live backgrounds rock), we've lost widgets. this isn't the same as not being able to customize the sleep button, its the usability customization we all do, NOT just nerds.
2) using live tiles with a mouse is like doing surgery without a scalpel. the icons are too big, too close together, too oddly organized >
3) people with a multi-monitor setup, people with any monitor over about 17" find live tiles to be irritating, especially with the huge band across the top and bottom.
4) the live-tile setup is tolerable for a person who can fit all their applications on 1 screen, but navigating through the start screen to page 2 or 3 is hard with a mouse. using just the live tile interface triples or quadruples time costs to launch apps. in a world where gingerbread and jelly-bean are criticized for not being "smooth" enough, live tiles just feels broken on the desktop.
5) lastly, I have a personal pet peve, full screened apps. I'm sorry, but I like being able to have a tv/movie live stream, an internet browser, microsoft word/exel and another app all at once. win 8 makes this impossible in certain circumstances. i don't know how strongly I can say this: TABLETS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR PRODUCTIVITY. so putting win 8 on a pc is just not practical for anyone who depends on their PC for school or work.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:26 am

Flying Fox wrote:
Arclight wrote:TL;DR: F*ck x86 Windows 8.

What about the x64 version? Or ARM-based non-tablet form factor?


I'm pretty sure both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions are x86. The x64 is actually x86-64 bit while the other x86-32 bit version. But w/e, you get it.

As for the Windows RT, i don't have a problem with it as it doesn't concern me and neither does the x86 deployment on tablets, where i presume it will be actually appreaciated, purportedly.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:59 pm

Arclight wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:
Arclight wrote:TL;DR: F*ck x86 Windows 8.

What about the x64 version? Or ARM-based non-tablet form factor?


I'm pretty sure both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions are x86. The x64 is actually x86-64 bit while the other x86-32 bit version. But w/e, you get it.

As for the Windows RT, i don't have a problem with it as it doesn't concern me and neither does the x86 deployment on tablets, where i presume it will be actually appreaciated, purportedly.


Someone lost a few marbles and started referring to 'x86' as the 32-bit version, and 'x64' as the 64-bit version a while back. Great marketing, made moving all of those 32-bit systems with 3GB of RAM that much easier.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:00 pm

Diplomacy42 wrote:5 things I think make PC users feel like win 8 "ignores" the pc space.

1) you can't boot to the desktop, you have use the live tiles. we've lost aero, we've lost backgrounds(live backgrounds rock), we've lost widgets. this isn't the same as not being able to customize the sleep button, its the usability customization we all do, NOT just nerds.
2) using live tiles with a mouse is like doing surgery without a scalpel. the icons are too big, too close together, too oddly organized >
3) people with a multi-monitor setup, people with any monitor over about 17" find live tiles to be irritating, especially with the huge band across the top and bottom.
4) the live-tile setup is tolerable for a person who can fit all their applications on 1 screen, but navigating through the start screen to page 2 or 3 is hard with a mouse. using just the live tile interface triples or quadruples time costs to launch apps. in a world where gingerbread and jelly-bean are criticized for not being "smooth" enough, live tiles just feels broken on the desktop.
5) lastly, I have a personal pet peve, full screened apps. I'm sorry, but I like being able to have a tv/movie live stream, an internet browser, microsoft word/exel and another app all at once. win 8 makes this impossible in certain circumstances. i don't know how strongly I can say this: TABLETS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR PRODUCTIVITY. so putting win 8 on a pc is just not practical for anyone who depends on their PC for school or work.


I'm going to have to get 8 on at least one system to test now. I think you're nitpicking, but I'm going to have to get in and see for myself, I think.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:14 pm

Diplomacy42 wrote:4) the live-tile setup is tolerable for a person who can fit all their applications on 1 screen, but navigating through the start screen to page 2 or 3 is hard with a mouse. using just the live tile interface triples or quadruples time costs to launch apps. in a world where gingerbread and jelly-bean are criticized for not being "smooth" enough, live tiles just feels broken on the desktop.
Having the scroll wheel on the mouse is now essential.

Diplomacy42 wrote:5) lastly, I have a personal pet peve, full screened apps. I'm sorry, but I like being able to have a tv/movie live stream, an internet browser, microsoft word/exel and another app all at once. win 8 makes this impossible in certain circumstances. i don't know how strongly I can say this: TABLETS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR PRODUCTIVITY. so putting win 8 on a pc is just not practical for anyone who depends on their PC for school or work.
As long as only 1 app is full screen, you can do the split screen thing (desktop with non-Metro apps + 1 Metro app).
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:34 pm

We can get this tomorrow, right? I just need a Home upgrade key from 7. Where do I get those for $30 again...
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:00 am

How is it nit-picking? I wrote how I like to use my pc, and outlined why win 8 doesn't fit my needs. Sure I can "use" the desktop, but every time I open an app, it flips back to "ModernUI" first(sometimes it takes a second). It's almost like the desktop is an app. when I use win 8, I almost never find it advantageous to flip over to the desktop. The desktop is treated as an afterthought in 8, it's like Balmer was planning on not even including one at all before someone threatened his family or something.

There is a big difference between "split screen" and "asymetrical split-screen with multitasking."
Wasting 2/3s of the screen avoids accidental taps, but is unpleasant on the pc.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:37 am

"What the hell is this tablet-centric touch-screen interface doing on a PC OS?"

I'd have no qualms using Windows 8 on a tablet, but it has a long way to go before I'd use it on my PC.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:17 am

Diplomacy42 wrote:every time I open an app, it flips back to "ModernUI" first(sometimes it takes a second).
Hmm, I don't get that. But I suppose I launch my apps from pinned task bar icons on the desktop and I don't get to see the Start screen that way. If you have to launch the apps from the Start screen then of course you will be in Metro for a short while at least.

Diplomacy42 wrote:It's almost like the desktop is an app. when I use win 8, I almost never find it advantageous to flip over to the desktop. The desktop is treated as an afterthought in 8, it's like Balmer was planning on not even including one at all before someone threatened his family or something.
They certainly are not making it a good experience, attempting to "persuade" people to stay with the new style.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:47 am

KDE here I come... even the default UI on Ubuntu Linux has been "tabletized" now. The one-size-fits-all UI mania is really quite annoying.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:59 am

JBI has it right.

A PC is a PC (includes desktops and notebooks).
A tablet is a tablet.
A phone is a phone (close to a tablet, but even between phone & tablet there are some important differences).

Microsoft in its usual arrogance is saying that there is ONE TRUE METHOD for interacting with all of these devices. Even Apple sees that this is a stupid idea, and I'm not an Apple fan by any stretch of the imagination.

Windows 8 on a tablet is actually OK as long as you are not forced to drop into desktop mode. That's why the Office RT business is going to be a big flop because office and other content creation tools are not well suited for tablets by their very nature.

The biggest disaster is that MS is intentionally emasculating the regular PC experience because it is in a panic about Apple selling iPads. If MS wants to panic about that and come up with a new tablet interface, FINE. At no point in any logical train of thought, however, should it have thought that making the desktop substantially harder to use is a good idea.

I can see some twisted logic behind this move: MARKETING. The marketing guys say: hey, we'll force everyone to use Metro *all the time* and then people will be "conditioned" to using our new overpriced tablets! This is a very 1990's mentality from Microsoft that might have worked in the days of Windows '95, but is likely going to fail in the 21st century.
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Re: Help me understand..

Postposted on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:28 am

Apparently there's a method Microsoft made available that allows you to purchase Windows 8 Pro for $15 in downloadable Upgrade form. I have two copies coming as we speak, will get the third later. Might as well get it paid for and legal while it's cheap!
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