Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:15 am

I think it's best said like this ...

Microsoft OS developers have finally made a new lower level Windows API called Windows RT and unfortunately they have tied this to their closed store (and of course you can have a private "Corporate" store) - Several of the Software Development people have basically said WinRT is the future and Win32/Win64 will not be further updated - it's easy to see how they will become red-head step children in Windows 9 and so on. Valve and Notch and LOTS of other independent developers are really worried about this - the desktop has always been pretty much wide open for developers and they could do whatever they wanted and now it looks like Microsoft is taking away the toys. The long and short of all the "problems" with Windows 8 from developers is ALL about this.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:15 am

keltor wrote:I think it's best said like this ...

Microsoft OS developers have finally made a new lower level Windows API called Windows RT and unfortunately they have tied this to their closed store (and of course you can have a private "Corporate" store) - Several of the Software Development people have basically said WinRT is the future and Win32/Win64 will not be further updated - it's easy to see how they will become red-head step children in Windows 9 and so on. Valve and Notch and LOTS of other independent developers are really worried about this - the desktop has always been pretty much wide open for developers and they could do whatever they wanted and now it looks like Microsoft is taking away the toys. The long and short of all the "problems" with Windows 8 from developers is ALL about this.

It isn't really lower level. It has a few newer techs for the devs, though.

Good article about it here, bit long but good read if you're into the details/history of it all. http://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10 ... new-again/

Page 6 has an infographic near the top showing why I'm interested in it. WinRT apps can only use newer display techs (which are readily available to Win32 apps, but so many of them still use GDI.)
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:24 am

Arclight wrote:Profitable for whom?

Everyone who has a vested interest in keeping Windows the dominant platform?

If the major players went to other OSes, the users would follow them.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:29 am

Yes. Vote with your wallet, Don't buy RT, don't buy anything from the Windows Store.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:30 am

Arclight wrote:Profitable for whom?


Not Gabe Newell who has a made a fortune from a very similar sort of concept, something which I think is the primary reason he's so upset over it.

Instead of supporting his complaints, why not support his solution (steam on linux)?

Arclight wrote:Isn't Microsoft doing a simillar thing in the mobile devices space with their Windows Phones?


...just as Google and Apple have done already.

I question, again, why you focus on Microsoft as if they're the ones leading this trend. They're clearly lagging it, but bizarrely are getting the blame anyway. :-?

keltor wrote:Valve and Notch and LOTS of other independent developers are really worried about this - the desktop has always been pretty much wide open for developers and they could do whatever they wanted and now it looks like Microsoft is taking away the toys. The long and short of all the "problems" with Windows 8 from developers is ALL about this.


I have serious doubts that Microsoft intends to become a closed shop. However, even if they do, such seems to be the way of things.

If everyone else seems to be migrating to that concept to one degree or another, why is Microsoft getting all the attention? It seems to me that they're just adapting to the new paradigm.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:18 pm

keltor wrote:I think it's best said like this ...

Microsoft OS developers have finally made a new lower level Windows API called Windows RT and unfortunately they have tied this to their closed store (and of course you can have a private "Corporate" store) - Several of the Software Development people have basically said WinRT is the future and Win32/Win64 will not be further updated - it's easy to see how they will become red-head step children in Windows 9 and so on. Valve and Notch and LOTS of other independent developers are really worried about this - the desktop has always been pretty much wide open for developers and they could do whatever they wanted and now it looks like Microsoft is taking away the toys. The long and short of all the "problems" with Windows 8 from developers is ALL about this.


Except it's not lower level... And it's built on Win32... And it isn't tied to the Windows Store...
- Other than that, the story was accurate.

http://software.intel.com/en-us/article ... plications
This API is written in C++ on top of Win32 and the COM interface. It is exposed out to other languages (in particular C++/CX, C#, Visual Basic* and Javascript*) via API meta-data files (.winmd files).

While you might think that WinRT is restricted to Windows 8* Store apps, Desktop applications have access to it as well. Some parts of the API are even restricted to desktop applications because they need to run outside of the Windows 8* Store apps sandbox, like PackageManager.


Now it's a stretch, but, MS could remove Win32 and rewrite WinRT for Win9 which would not be "Win!"
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:34 pm

Glorious wrote:...just as Google and Apple have done already.


Why do you keep mentioning Google? Sure they have the Play store but there's nothing stopping any android owner from side loading their own apps or even installing another app store... just as Win8 x86 can do but Win8 RT users can't.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:02 pm

cheesyking wrote:Why do you keep mentioning Google? Sure they have the Play store but there's nothing stopping any android owner from side loading their own apps or even installing another app store... just as Win8 x86 can do but Win8 RT users can't.


Yes, but the word "app" is a little different in that analogy, isn't it? Every program on Android is an app, whereas not every program on Windows is an "app," right? You already can "side-load" programs on Windows 8, just not a specific type of program known as an "Windows 8 style App."

As to installing another "app" store, gee, does Steam no longer work on Windows 8? And, to hark back to your discussion of "side-loading," umm, can I side-load Half-life 2? No? Looks like I should be talking about Valve too, shouldn't I? :P

Does an exception like the "Windows 8 style App" exist on the Android platform? I don't really know, but the concept is much more similar than it is different. People would rather just hate on Windows 8 and Microsoft rather than face the fact they're just following the trend.

Furthermore, I guess you didn't read PixelArmy's link. You can't really make an app outside of the app store, but the entirety of the WinRT API isn't at all locked down.

If you want to make a program on Windows, you still can. It just can't be a "Windows 8 style app" without Microsoft's approval and distribution. In a way, this makes sense. It's a seal of quality and better guarantee of security.

You can act like such things don't matter, but that's exactly why Microsoft now recommends that users disable the earlier incarnation of the app idea on on the window platform: gadgets.

Does it even occur to you that perhaps they're doing it right this time but that there are trade-offs? Trade-offs that many users are more than willing to accept? Trade-offs that their competitors have already made to the acclaim (and sales!) of tens of millions?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:25 pm

every marketplace is "locked down" in some form or another. Heck, Steam is locked down. In fact, companies like FarSight Studios is pleading for fans to vote to allow their Pinball Arcade into Steam.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:58 pm

Glorious wrote:

Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick but isn't every program (excluding the built in office) on win8 RT a metro style "app" that can only be downloaded through the MS store?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:09 pm

cheesyking wrote:Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick but isn't every program (excluding the built in office) on win8 RT a metro style "app" that can only be downloaded through the MS store?

What you are referring to isn't Windows 8 RT, but rather WIndows RT, which is "just the Metro" part of Windows 8 (ok, built-in office and some file management, etc. uses the desktop) and runs on ARM. And yes you are correct that the only "apps" that run on that platform are Metro style apps obtained through the Windows Store...

However, this thread is abou Windows 8 "proper" (the x86-64 version that runs both desktop and metro apps) as Steam doesn't run on ARM processors anyways...

More or less:
Desktop apps -> Same as they've always been. Steam is in this category.
Metro apps -> New, only installed via Windows Store.
Windows 8 -> x86-64, runs desktop apps and metro apps.
Windows RT -> ARM, runs only metro apps.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:58 am

PixelArmy wrote:
cheesyking wrote:Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick but isn't every program (excluding the built in office) on win8 RT a metro style "app" that can only be downloaded through the MS store?

What you are referring to isn't Windows 8 RT, but rather WIndows RT, which is "just the Metro" part of Windows 8 (ok, built-in office and some file management, etc. uses the desktop) and runs on ARM. And yes you are correct that the only "apps" that run on that platform are Metro style apps obtained through the Windows Store...

However, this thread is abou Windows 8 "proper" (the x86-64 version that runs both desktop and metro apps) as Steam doesn't run on ARM processors anyways...

More or less:
Desktop apps -> Same as they've always been. Steam is in this category.
Metro apps -> New, only installed via Windows Store.
Windows 8 -> x86-64, runs desktop apps and metro apps.
Windows RT -> ARM, runs only metro apps.


Well I didn't see anything in the thread title or OP specifically excluding RT from the discussion and personally I'd include RT in the windows 8 family... product segmentation and marketing BS aside). If I made my living from software development and distribution the the very existence of RT (with it's associated restrictions) would be enough to have me worried.

Excluding RT from the discussion certainly makes Valve's position look a little silly as in the full fat versions of windows MS isn't doing anything that all the other OS makers aren't already doing and Valve have been happy to put Steam on MacOS and Ubuntu which both have their own competing app stores.
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