Windows 8- Sell me on it

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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:30 pm

I really wish I could CHOOSE which screens got the full taskbar. From what I saw, it was all or nothing, and I have five screens to throw at it. Three are 20" panels that would be used for just a single app or browser, and they don't need taskbars.

Also, I'd like the option for each taskbar to be able to show everything or just what's on it's screen- and to be able to customize what it shows. Clock, no clock, system tray or not (and which icons!), which programs, etc. I'm pretty sure there was a third-party app like that for previous versions of Windows.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:07 pm

and to add to the list of expected features: metro snap should work on every monitor, not just the primary.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:44 pm

I played around with W8 on a VM recently. Did not like it. Switch from XP to W7 was fairly intuitive. Only new locations of certain programs and shortcuts took some time to get used to. W8 feels like W7 Madman Edition. Methinks I'll stick with 7 for now. Hopefully W8 SP1 will fix some annoyances.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:30 pm

I think I would end up liking it fine, but I also think there's no compelling reason to buy it.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:45 pm

flip-mode wrote:I've got 8 in a VM now. I'm not sure if the new UI is clunky or if it just takes getting used to. The more I fiddle the more I think it's the latter. But I also think MS could have put more thought into how a desktop user can manipulate the Start Page with the mouse. For instance, just being able to click the background and drag things from side to side would be nice.

Having said that, MS does seem to have put plenty of thought into how the keyboard works. There are a bunch of shortcuts:
http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2012/06/th ... shortcuts/

Keyboard interaction seems to be very valuable if not critical to efficient navigation of the OS. Using the mouse seems clunky - at least in a virtual machine.

I also installed Revit and a Revit program tile was added to the start page - useful.


Edit: Oh, and I think Krogoth is totally missing the point. Sure, MS is putting it's own app store into place. But I think the real purpose of Windows 8 is to introduce some truly touch-centric thinking into the OS.


Windows 8 is all about micro-transactions. Microsoft wants to a piece of the Apple and Android store marketshare. Window 8's primary target has never been the traditional PC desktop users. It is mainstream crowd who is currently into portable platforms that typically work with touchscreens. That's why the UI leans heavily towards such users. The classical desktop is still there though, but that leaves Windows 8 being nothing more than a service pack of Windows 7.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:53 pm

Krogoth wrote:Windows 8 is all about micro-transactions. Microsoft wants to a piece of the Apple and Android store marketshare. Window 8's primary target has never been the traditional PC desktop users. It is mainstream crowd who is currently into portable platforms that typically work with touchscreens. That's why the UI leans heavily towards such users. The classical desktop is still there though, but that leaves Windows 8 being nothing more than a service pack of Windows 7.


That's a pretty good assessment by Krogoth. Microsoft simply cannot afford NOT to get into this game, piss people off as they may. That said, if someone asked me what to buy when it came to computers, I'd probably point them at a 27"-ish all-in-one with touch-screen, and a discrete GPU if they wanted to do some gaming. Make sure it's got a hybrid drive setup, and they'll be golden. It's not like people upgrade OEM desktops anymore; the most important part is a good screen (not referring to touch capability, but it'd be silly to buy a system without it now that Windows can make good use of it).
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:04 pm

My dad is 68. He was never a Windows fan. He used the desktop PC only when he had to. Basically to do work, banking, web browsing, or printing. Spent a lot of time asking people how to do so-and-so thing.

Then the iPhone came out and it was a godsend to him. He does things on the iPhone that I don't know how to do. So when Windows 8 came out, he was excited to try it out because he heard it was like an iPhone.

Before you think that he's one of those old people that doesn't like tech, he owns a ton of gadgets. He had a BlackBerry before the iPhone. He's bought many home entertainment devices including things like the WD TV. He has an iPad 2. A Kindle Fire. An Android tablet. An HP TouchPad. He has a TabletPC notebook, a regular notebook, a netbook, and bought a new desktop every 3 years or so.

So we ordered one of the new Acer T232HL 23-Inch Touch Screen LCD monitors. This monitor is beautiful. Our first IPS panel for a PC. I wish all our monitors were IPS but IPS is still kind of pricy. It's only 1920x1080 but still a good monitor. Once he realized that you have to play with the edges of the screen to see what happens, he was off and running.

Since companies are being slow to respond to Windows 8 hardware, we had to go with the Acer. I would've liked a little more competition out there but the price was decent.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:10 am

I couldn't believe all the negative reactions to Windows 8 and decided to it try for myself. I have to say, after playing around with it for a couple of hours, I like Windows 8 a lot. I feel it is a nice improvement from W7. There is a slight learning curve and parts of the OS doesn't feel quite unified (PC settings / control panel???) and it might get confusing.

I think in order to use Windows 8, you'll need to think a little bit differently. Most of the Win8 bashing comes from the lack of the start button. It felt awkward for me at first but when I thought about it, what do you do when you turn on your computer? stare at the desktop? With Win8 booting straight to the Start menu made a lot of sent because I can see all the apps that I want to use (after customization and pinning of apps) and I'm 1 click away to loading the app I want. It made A LOT of sense, and I don't miss the classic start menu one bit. The live tiles are a nice touch. Because of the new start menu, I no longer feel the urge to clutter my desktop with app shortcuts! The new start menu does that and a lot more. Its like start menu on speed!

The second thing that I liked was the performance. Although I already have a beefy workstation, everything felt smoother and snappier. I am also glad the whole aero/glass/reflection/glare motif is gone because that was annoying. I wear glasses and I get enough glare as it is, I don't need anymore of it in my life LOL. The whole flat/simplified/metro visual language is a nice welcome because is functional and it is not distracting. Windows finally feels like a OS for work.

These are just some of the things that I like about Win8. It is by no means perfect and at times it feels like an OS in transition (if that makes any sense). But overall, I think it is a nice change with nice improvements.

To anyone one the fence on using Win8, just try it out for yourself. All this hate and emotional drama over an OS is just silly. If you don't like it, you can always go back to Win7!!
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:25 am

"Windows 8, sell me on it"
"AIDS, sell me on it"
"Cigarettes, sell me on it"

Just because lots of people are doing it, doesn't mean you need it - there's a lot of web hype and forum posts about it right now, people are engaged and trying something interesting and new!
,...

Doesn't mean it's actually good for you, justb ecause it might be good for them (also, people seem to get 'purchase defence syndrome' when they buy tech gear)

I would almost bet money you've got a stack of games you need to catch up on, or a garage to clean, house to clean, excercise equipment to use, movies to watch, studying to do.
Don't distract yourself on some crappy OS just because everyone else is.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:24 am

AbRASiON wrote:"Windows 8, sell me on it"
"AIDS, sell me on it"
"Cigarettes, sell me on it"

Very reasonable comparisons you've made there :roll:
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:11 am

I just cannot believe some of the comparisons being made in this thread.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:51 am

Yep. Yay for the Internet. Windows 8 will give you cancer and STDs and put your children in forced labor camps and cause a global economic meltdown and polar ice cap meltdown. :lol:

My Win 8 verdict: Not worth pursuing, but not worth fleeing from. In other words, I'm not going to upgrade my current desktop to it but the next desktop I build will have it installed.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:23 am

derFunkenstein wrote:I just cannot believe some of the comparisons being made in this thread.


Not sure why. IT people work in an industry defined by change and are among the most resistant to it.

PCs will not stay as they are today and Win8 is the first step toward their eventual destination. Now you can complain that first steps into a brave new world are never perfect, but anything past that is hyperbole on the greatest of scales.

Linux and Mac will not benefit from this and frankly, Mac is also marching in this direction.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:29 am

flip-mode wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:"Windows 8, sell me on it"
"AIDS, sell me on it"
"Cigarettes, sell me on it"

Very reasonable comparisons you've made there :roll:

True. I don't see any difference between them, although cigarettes doesn't really deserve to be on that list.

Ryu Connor wrote:brave new world

Pretty accurate statement there bro, which might explain why some people don't like it. RT and the app store are the destruction of the current ecosystem.
Ryu Connor wrote:Linux and Mac will not benefit from this and frankly, Mac is also marching in this direction.

Linux will absolutely benefit from this, and they already are. Steam on linux means the death of windows.

Ryu Connor wrote:Not sure why. IT people work in an industry defined by change and are among the most resistant to it.

The app store means more revenue for IT, and the locked down state means less viruses. More money, less work, achieved through dishonest means. W8 is an IT person's wet dream, but a nightmare for regular users.

Ryu Connor wrote:Win8 is the first step toward their eventual destination.

Yeah, a closed system, which a great many people don't like.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:11 am

l-g, you make the most hyperbolic statements possible. The fact that you can't tone down your rhetoric is really frustrating. Where Windows 8 might inflict a paper cut you make it out to be a beheading. Then a person reading your comments has two options: embrace the obviously overblown nonsense that you're spouting, or totally dismiss you. If you could keep yourself from sensationalizing every point you want to make, your comments would be a lot more useful. As it is, your comments sound like the ravings of an emotionally/mentally unstable tinfoil salesman.

And the suggestion that gaming on Linux will bring down Windows is so monumentally clueless that I feel like a tool for even addressing it. People have needs beyond gaming. Until you get Adobe and Autodesk and some other ISVs to port everything to Linux and until you can talk all the Windows network sysadmins into making the switch, Windows will be a dominant presence. Forget Linux, even Apple hasn't been able to displace Windows from corporate networks.

( I feel quite foolish for wasting my time typing this up. :lol: )
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:13 pm

flip-mode wrote:l-g, you make the most hyperbolic statements possible. The fact that you can't tone down your rhetoric is really frustrating. Where Windows 8 might inflict a paper cut you make it out to be a beheading. Then a person reading your comments has two options: embrace the obviously overblown nonsense that you're spouting, or totally dismiss you. If you could keep yourself from sensationalizing every point you want to make, your comments would be a lot more useful. As it is, your comments sound like the ravings of an emotionally/mentally unstable tinfoil salesman.

I use hyperbole to describe that something is wrong, and frankly if you tone down criticism to the point of being tepid, then it doesn't really seem like criticism. The purpose here is to point out that something is bad. However, you think that w8 is all lollipops, rainbows, and unicorns, and that apparently doesn't sit well when someone attempts to take off your rose colored glasses and noseplug to reveal your favorite beverage is raw sewage. Makes perfect sense you wouldn't like that, since this is the Allegory of the Cave. Sometimes, information needs to be looked at with an open mind, regardless of how it is presented, and processed independently of personal bias. It isn't my problem if you can't do that.
flip-mode wrote:And the suggestion that gaming on Linux will bring down Windows is so monumentally clueless that I feel like a tool for even addressing it. People have needs beyond gaming. Until you get Adobe and Autodesk and some other ISVs to port everything to Linux and until you can talk all the Windows network sysadmins into making the switch, Windows will be a dominant presence. Forget Linux, even Apple hasn't been able to displace Windows from corporate networks.

People do have needs beyond gaming, yes, but they aren't the majority and gaming is a hurdle that must be overcome before anything else, simply because it will increase the userbase. The reason Adobe and Autodesk don't port is the userbase, and that goes for everything else. Windows is great for the corporate environment, but the problem is that it's taken that to the extreme. Apple is a joke, and they will never displace windows for the same reason windows can't become osx, or face death to linux. Windows is/was a professional open platform. Apple does not deal in open platforms, and therefore is terrible for businesses. Linux is an open platform, but it is more of a platform for hobbyists and servers. HOWEVER, linux is extremely adaptable and this could quickly change with a large increase in the userbase, which the best possible way for that to happen is for it to embrace gaming. W8 on ARM doesn't allow 18+ games on it's app store, and if it was possible to replace w8 with ubuntu and steam on these tablets, I could very easily see people doing this. Linux may not be able to currently beat windows on the desktop, but it is already superior to w8 on arm devices.
flip-mode wrote:( I feel quite foolish for wasting my time typing this up. :lol: )

Yes, I'm sure posting a real argument for your viewpoint severely hurts your self-esteem, since it is completely incomprehensible how anyone could possibly not like the direction w8 is going.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:28 pm

Why are you putting words in my mouth? It seems as if you so badly want an enemy that you'll put words in my mouth if I'm not saying something that's already objectionable enough for you. I have not /ever/ said it is incomprehensible that someone would not like Windows 8. All I have said is that you're overblowing pretty much every point you want to make, and I also had the audacity to ask you to provide some supporting information for something you said (and it really seems to piss you off most that someone would ask you to support anything you say with actual information). You're spouting a bunch of garbage, and you engage in character assassination when I point it out. It's poor form, very poor.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:49 pm

flip-mode wrote:It seems as if you so badly want an enemy that you'll put words in my mouth if I'm not saying something that's already objectionable enough for you.

I'm not suggesting anything that you haven't appeared to be already saying. The solution is to stop saying things that could be mistranslated.
flip-mode wrote:I have not /ever/ said it is incomprehensible that someone would not like Windows 8. All I have said is that you're overblowing pretty much every point you want to make,

Then you shouldn't have said it, and then I wouldn't have taken it that way.
flip-mode wrote:and I also had the audacity to ask you to provide some supporting information for something you said (and it really seems to piss you off most that someone would ask you to support anything you say with actual information).

Bull. You don't want "supporting information", you're just using rhetoric to excuse yourself for not having a real opposing argument. There's enough "supporting information" available to the public. The basics are public knowledge that you should know without me telling you, or you shouldn't be making comments on it. I don't like the full screen GUI or the App store. You're not going to get much more out of that, so you need to stop making excuses and offer something if you want to rebut. W8 uses an app store and you're locked in with the arm version, and so are Metro apps in the pro version. That's public knowledge, and I don't need to cite examples. Even if I did cite a million examples, you probably wouldn't read them, because your intent is to make me waste my time, and then you'll still not address what I was talking about.
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flip-mode wrote:You're spouting a bunch of garbage, and you engage in character assassination when I point it out. It's poor form, very poor.

Perhaps if you weren't so condescending, we could have a move civil discussion. You complain about my hyperbole, but you're really all about patronizing me and using that as an excuse to not have any actual counter point. As it stands, this is what you're offering as an argument, and this is how I'm going to respond to that kind of argument. Perhaps it would be more productive to come up with something related to the topic to say.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:01 pm

flip-mode wrote:l-g, you make the most hyperbolic statements possible.

True Facts. Same goes for AbRASiON. It's like you can't make a substantive argument so instead you're inches from comparing Ballmer to Hitler.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:07 pm

I think it's pretty common for the anti-Windows 8 people to not go into detail why they don't like because they honestly haven't tried it beyond maybe an hour in some preview version.

And the preview versions were rough. The developer preview was borderline unusable and really only for the developers to test their software. I had it installed for maybe half an hour and then promptly removed it. The consumer preview was better but still quite rough. Had it for at most an hour. The release preview was actually the first to show what would be close to the final version. Tried this out for a couple of days. And the enterprise evaluation version was as close to final as possible. Tried this out until release day. But even then, today, all the apps are being updated constantly. I get updates for the Windows 8 apps almost every other day.

I'd read complaint after complaint that clearly showed they didn't try it out or didn't spend any time looking at the settings. like "Windows 8 won't play my MP3s over the network" (it can). or "you can't uninstall metro apps" (you can). or "I can't resize my tiles. why don't they give that option?" (they do). or "there's no print option in windows 8" (there is printing). or "there's no search option" (there is searching).

or blatantly false information. "windows 8 is faster because they removed the aero theme and replaced it with the metro theme. otherwise, it's the same as windows 7".

but most of all, most people complaining are just repeating what they read elsewhere. I say you have to try it out for yourself. not regurgitate what you read. I'd read a review (which supposedly came from a reviewer who "thoroughly" examined it in order to write a review) and the guy would say something blatantly wrong. I'm no Windows 8 expert by any means (still learning new shortcuts every day) so if I get that the reviewer is wrong, how can it be that he did a thorough examination?

That's why I like reviews from sites like arstechnica. or anandtech. They really dive in. Peter Bright is incredibly thorough. I disagree with some of his points but disagreement is okay if an argument is made.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:12 pm

FWIW: I found this article to be a pretty good interpetation of the direction of the market.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:53 pm

Yes, Windows 8 is quite different, but Linux is still more different
No matter how painful moving to Windows 8 may be, it still runs Windows software and admin tools; changing those will hurt most people (and most IT shops) more than dealing with the new Start screen
Windows 8 isn't really the competition anyway—Windows 7 is

Linux isn't yet a direct competitor to x86 windows, but could be for ARM. I've heard libreoffice compared to ms office RT in functionality. As for the desktop, linux doesn't need to have any professional software or tools to get users, as supporting games alone would be enough to cause a market shift. Those linux statistics do not account for valve, as their data is only based on linux's past capabilities, and that can change. Windows 7 truly is the current desktop competition, but only until it's no longer available, or supported.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:58 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:W8 on ARM doesn't allow 18+ games on it's app store

The PEGI 18 restriction was removed. AO titles and titles with nudity will still not be allowed.

So since most physical and digital stores won't carry those either, I don't see your point.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:12 pm

Savyg wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:W8 on ARM doesn't allow 18+ games on it's app store

The PEGI 18 restriction was removed. AO titles and titles with nudity will still not be allowed.

So since most physical and digital stores won't carry those either, I don't see your point.

Obviously not, if the restriction was removed. Regardless, Microsoft still has the ability to censor and gateway programs on the app store. Perhaps some people don't like that they have that capability. Same with the SmartScreen vulnerability, which is good if it was fixed, but it's still bad that they're collecting the info.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:17 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:Regardless, Microsoft has the ability to censor and gateway programs on the app store. Perhaps some people don't like that they have that capability.

OK, I open an app store. Obviously, anyone with an issue will come after me as the owner of said store. Am I going to approve each app headed for the store, and categorically deny some? OF COURSE.

OMG, MS won't allow AO content on their app store!!! THEY'RE CENSORING!!!. Of course they are. Grow up and realize that your fantasy of unrestricted total access only works with those websites that get sued and prosecuted all the time. Unless. of course, you believe MS should be forced to offer AO content on its app store.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:Regardless, Microsoft has the ability to censor and gateway programs on the app store. Perhaps some people don't like that they have that capability.

OK, I open an app store. Obviously, anyone with an issue will come after me as the owner of said store. Am I going to approve each app headed for the store, and categorically deny some? OF COURSE.

Sure, as it's your store, but when it's the ONLY store available and you're taking a cut from the guys doing all the work, then there's a BIG problem.
Captain Ned wrote:OMG, MS won't allow AO content on their app store!!! THEY'RE CENSORING!!!. Of course they are. Grow up and realize that your fantasy of unrestricted total access only works with those websites that get sued and prosecuted all the time.

No, that's not how it originally started, COD and Halo wouldn't have been available, and censoring is bad. Control freakism and censorship is bad, and this leads to things like book burning, or in modern terms deleting 1984 off people's kindles. Sheltering people from controversy is wrong.
Last edited by l33t-g4m3r on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
l33t-g4m3r
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:21 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:Sure, as it's your store, but when it's the ONLY store available and you're taking a cut from the guys doing all the work, then there's a BIG problem.

So you believe MS should be forced to approve/sell anything submitted to its store, AO included? If not, what are the pertinent criteria? Are you claiming monopsony is equally evil as monopoly?
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:22 pm

Linux fans clinging to the hope that it will finally be their day among the masses are going to continue to be severely disappointed. And thinking that Valve will be the savior of Linux is pretty foolish. Steam is great but it has restrictions like any other marketplace. You see companies like FarSight Studios pleading with their fans to vote in number so that Pinball Arcade gets greenlit by Valve.

And now anti-Win8 fans are clinging to adult-only game titles as an "anti" reason? Last I checked, all the other marketplaces don't allow AO titles either. Steam doesn't. So if you think Steam is the wild frontier, think again.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
l33t-g4m3r wrote:Sure, as it's your store, but when it's the ONLY store available and you're taking a cut from the guys doing all the work, then there's a BIG problem.

So you believe MS should be forced to approve/sell anything submitted to its store, AO included? If not, what are the pertinent criteria? Are you claiming monopsony is equally evil as monopoly?

No. It should be an open to competition platform though.
onlysublime wrote:Linux fans clinging to the hope that it will finally be their day among the masses are going to continue to be severely disappointed. And thinking that Valve will be the savior of Linux is pretty foolish. Steam is great but it has restrictions like any other marketplace. You see companies like FarSight Studios pleading with their fans to vote in number so that Pinball Arcade gets greenlit by Valve.

LOL. Quite funny, and Valve would be a huge market driver, being the biggest digital distributor of games around. It doesn't matter how Valve runs it's store either, since linux is an open platform. The real improvements are from increased driver and software support, and bigger userbase. Linux costs nothing to try, and steam should encourage gamers tired of windows to try something new, provided everything works out of the box hassle free. Once things get to an acceptable level, people will simply stop buying windows. It's not going to be instantaneous, nor will Microsoft completely die off, but they are becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Last edited by l33t-g4m3r on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windows 8- Sell me on it

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:48 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:LOL. Quite funny, and Valve would be a huge market driver, being the biggest digital distributor of games around. It doesn't matter how Valve runs it's store either, since linux is an open platform. The real improvements are from increased driver and software support, and bigger userbase. Linux costs nothing to try, and steam should encourage gamers tired of windows to try something new, provided everything works out of the box hassle free. Once things get to an acceptable level, people will stop buying windows.

I doubt Valve will sell anything that isn't supported by the original developer.

So you might see some Valve, iD, and Epic games, but I highly doubt the vast majority of games are going to be ported just because Steam is there.
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