Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

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Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:17 pm

I just got stung by this.

"System builder versions of Windows 8 require Windows 8-certified hardware to enable touch."

WTH? :x

Here's the worst part. I'll summarize, the same hardware (Acer W500) I used to run all three preview versions of Win8 as well as the install process for my OEM copy WILL NOT WORK once Win8 is installed - and for completely arbitrary reasons imposed by MS. Come on... It worked just fine before and now you're turning it off for what reason exactly? I might understand if this were the case for a retail version that MS had to provide support for - but they're off the hook for the OEM version so why not let it use any random hardware it finds?

Ugh... This is the first thing about Win8 that completely disgusts me... *sigh*

/rant
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:58 pm

That's moronic.

I bet there's a registry edit that'll turn it back on though...
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:13 pm

So does the retail version have this same limitation? Or do they allow it to work with any random touch hardware? Which, as you say, would potentially increase their support burden.

And I agree with JBI, there's almost certainly an easy way to hack this. There's still a way to use non-certified drivers, so there has to be a way around this too.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:24 pm

I'm sure it will be simple, but I haven't seen a solution yet.

The retail version DOES NOT have the same limitation. The guy that started the thread I linked to solved his problem by switching from his OEM copy to the $40 downloaded upgrade version. :roll:

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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:36 pm

It may take someone dumping out the registries from a retail and OEM copy and comparing them to figure this out.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:32 pm

have you confirmed this through experience? if so, that's terrible! I don't know why they would lock it out, especially considering it's the more expensive full version. is this the system builder pro or regular?
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:23 am

Yes, the offending hardware/software is right next to me as I type. :evil:

This goes for any OEM version of Win8 - I'm using Win8 Pro x64.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:41 am

Huge gasp

WTF?

What's the point of Windows anymore and where do we look for an alternative?
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:24 am

I'm still shocked by this as well - I think it is unprecedented - hardware that works perfectly well with an OS is artificially and arbitrarily crippled by the OS. Can you guys think of any other examples?
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:44 am

just brew it! wrote:That's moronic.


This is Microsoft, they've been lowering my expectations since, uh, forever actually.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:51 am

Arclight wrote:What's the point of Windows anymore and where do we look for an alternative?

The point is that it is still the most widely deployed desktop OS, and has the biggest software ecosystem.

The alternatives are fairly obvious (Mac or Linux), but depending on what you use your PC for they may not be practical.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:50 am

just brew it! wrote:
Arclight wrote:What's the point of Windows anymore and where do we look for an alternative?

The point is that it is still the most widely deployed desktop OS, and has the biggest software ecosystem.

The alternatives are fairly obvious (Mac or Linux), but depending on what you use your PC for they may not be practical.


How could Mac be an alternative? I thought it's understood my alergic reaction was caused by Microsoft artificially stopping support for hardware. I always used Windows because it iswas the most open platform in terms of hardware support. How could you not understand?

Mac OS X? Screw dat. Linux afaik has bad driver support, or at least that is the myth.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:21 am

Arclight wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Arclight wrote:What's the point of Windows anymore and where do we look for an alternative?

The point is that it is still the most widely deployed desktop OS, and has the biggest software ecosystem.

The alternatives are fairly obvious (Mac or Linux), but depending on what you use your PC for they may not be practical.

How could Mac be an alternative? I thought it's understood my alergic reaction was caused by Microsoft artificially stopping support for hardware. I always used Windows because it iswas the most open platform in terms of hardware support. How could you not understand?

It wasn't clear to me whether you were complaining specifically about just this issue, or about Microsoft and/or Windows more generally (as in, this was the last straw).

Arclight wrote:Linux afaik has bad driver support, or at least that is the myth.

It is part reality, part myth.

Linux often has spotty support for newer hardware, since hardware vendors understandably put a priority on getting Windows drivers out the door at product launch (assuming they intend to provide Linux drivers at all). But as long as the hardware specs are available (or can be reverse-engineered), Open Source drivers for Linux generally appear in fairly short order, and make their way into the base Linux distros a few months after that.

Once a device is supported in Linux, it is pretty much supported forever. Got an old PCI soundcard (e.g. Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, one of the best-sounding cards ever made) that never got Win7 driver support? Current Linux distros have drivers for it. Ditto older printers, scanners, etc. which may not be usable in newer versions of Windows. Most hardware that is at least a year or two older than the distro you're running will typically just work "out of the box" without even needing to download or install anything.

Edit: A real-world example...

I run Ubuntu Linux at work. My previous workstation was an older Socket AM2+ system. Ubuntu 10.04 (released 2-1/2 years ago) supported all of the onboard motherboard devices (NIC, audio, USB ports, SATA controller, system monitoring, etc.) out-of-box, no additional drivers needed. The only driver I downloaded was ATI's Linux driver for the video card.

When I upgraded to a newer system recently (AM3+ motherboard), I carried the old Ubuntu 10.04 installation across by cloning the system drive. The only glitches I encountered were that the onboard audio only worked in basic AC97 2-channel mode, and the temperature monitoring chip wasn't supported. Everything else just worked (even the JMicron eSATA ports, which was a pleasant surprise). A few Google searches led me to functional drivers for the audio and temperature monitoring chips; and if I'd been willing to cut over to a newer distro those devices would've been fully supported without the need to install anything.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 am

Chrispy_ wrote:This is Microsoft, they've been lowering my expectations since, uh, forever actually.


That's not exactly fair. I'm pissed at them over this but I think a lot of Microsoft's issues have been problems of timing more than anything. I think they've had a fairly decent track record since Win7 at least. This on the other hand is just utter foolishness.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Finally, I find a place where someone else posted about this problem. I made a post on another forum about my issues here: http://www.eightforums.com/tablet-touch ... lease.html

Basically, I have an HP TX2000 that worked great with the preview. Upon buying the system builder version of windows 8 and installing it, it doesnt work at all anymore. I tried a bunch of workarounds, including getting new wacom drivers which only sort-of worked. Those closest I got, which really pissed me off, was by editing my disk (ripping it and creating a custom iso) so that I could skip entering the product key temporarily (like you could in all older versions of Windows). While I was in this "trial mode" it worked great again, just like it used to. Then I went home, put in my key, activated windows, and restarted... now it doesnt work at all again. Clearly its just some kind of "switch" that gets toggled when it see what version you're using.

This has pissed me off to no extent. My guess is its probably a registry entry, like someone else mentioned in this thread, and in my other thread. I dont know much about looking through the registry to find things though, so now I'm stuck waiting around for someone else to do it. If I knew what to look for or how to find it I'd be willing to do the legwork to find it, because I've spent so much time already trying to figure this out, and I'm sure as hell not buying a $900+ laptop just to get an arbitrary windows 8 certified set of hardware. I'm also not going to spend another $40 to "upgrade" my full version of Windows 8 to make it actually work.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:18 pm

Krynn72 wrote:Finally, I find a place where someone else posted about this problem. I made a post on another forum about my issues here: http://www.eightforums.com/tablet-touch ... lease.html

Basically, I have an HP TX2000 that worked great with the preview. Upon buying the system builder version of windows 8 and installing it, it doesnt work at all anymore. I tried a bunch of workarounds, including getting new wacom drivers which only sort-of worked. Those closest I got, which really pissed me off, was by editing my disk (ripping it and creating a custom iso) so that I could skip entering the product key temporarily (like you could in all older versions of Windows). While I was in this "trial mode" it worked great again, just like it used to. Then I went home, put in my key, activated windows, and restarted... now it doesnt work at all again. Clearly its just some kind of "switch" that gets toggled when it see what version you're using.

This has pissed me off to no extent. My guess is its probably a registry entry, like someone else mentioned in this thread, and in my other thread. I dont know much about looking through the registry to find things though, so now I'm stuck waiting around for someone else to do it. If I knew what to look for or how to find it I'd be willing to do the legwork to find it, because I've spent so much time already trying to figure this out, and I'm sure as hell not buying a $900+ laptop just to get an arbitrary windows 8 certified set of hardware. I'm also not going to spend another $40 to "upgrade" my full version of Windows 8 to make it actually work.



If the trial version works, you could compare the registries with the activated version. Ask someone to lend you a laptop on which you can install Windows 8, keep it as trial, and get to work.....
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:46 pm

Arclight wrote:
Krynn72 wrote:If the trial version works, you could compare the registries with the activated version. Ask someone to lend you a laptop on which you can install Windows 8, keep it as trial, and get to work.....

Will the registry entries be different if its a different make and model of laptop? I have a Lenovo thinkpad and a spare laptop hard drive I can put the trial version on.


EDIT: Well, I had some free time, so I just reinstalled the os with the trial and then activated it, getting the registry exported before and after. I have a file comparing program that shows me plenty of alterations, but none of them are blatantly named enough for me to find anything relevant. I guess I'll have to resign myself to waiting for someone more knowledgeable to find it.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:41 am

Krynn72 wrote:and I'm sure as hell not buying a $900+ laptop just to get an arbitrary windows 8 certified set of hardware. I'm also not going to spend another $40 to "upgrade" my full version of Windows 8 to make it actually work.


it's not quite arbitrary... to qualify as windows 8 hardware, you need a minimum of 5 point touch.

All old hardware used 2 point touch. I'm not sure if any device used more as it wasn't needed in for Windows. now, 2 points of touch will cover the basics such as pinch/stretch to zoom. but there'll be future motion gestures that go beyond 2 points of touch.

but the TX2000 only has 1 point of touch, and it's a resistive screen (you're using your fingernail to scroll, aren't you?). Yes, they should've allowed you to use the screen within its limitations. to block it was silly and stupid. but you can't even do simple things like rotate a screen or pinch to zoom. let alone the future 5 point usage.

the new monitors are coming out with minimum 10 point touch (so that 2 people can play on the same screen at the same time).
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:39 pm

onlysublime wrote:
Krynn72 wrote:to block it was silly and stupid.

That's what I mean by arbitrary. They didn't need to block it. They decided to do it for no good reason (well, except to push 5+ touch screens). And no, I wasn't using my fingernail to scroll, it worked great with anything. I was able to use my fingers, my stylus, my Intuos pen, my nose, whatever, and it worked fine. I don't need pinch to zoom, and only need to rotate documents to align them, which can be done with a button in the software and can be saved as the default alignment. So far, nothing I've done needed more than one point of touch, I'm more than happy to live with minor, workaround-able drawbacks of single touch if it saves me 500+ dollars.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:59 pm

I'm not diminishing anyones plight. I also get why this sort of artificial segmentation is maddening.

I would however note that the OEM version of Windows is aimed towards OEMs, not end users.

It is not uncommon for OEM versions of Windows to be unique as compared to the retail release. Some of you may remember the strange limits of Windows95 retail vs OEM (b, b 2.1, c) such as FAT32 support, USB support, and more. The retail vs OEM SKU has always had a difference in terms of included support; there is no included support with OEM.

It's been a while since Microsoft has done this sort of blantant segmentation, but it does have a precedence. The SKU prices of retail vs OEM are no longer absurd like they once were, there is less reason to go OEM at all.

From my viewpoint the lesson within this thread is tell all class of upgrading users - professional, enthusiast, and laymen - that they should buck old habits and buy Retail and not OEM.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:24 pm

...except that Win8 specifically has a system builders clause as part of the OEM license - it even lets us transfer our copy as we upgrade our computers... Seems very strange to me that it goes in both directions like that... :-?
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:43 pm

Just because they knew we'd do it and they decided to give us their blessing, doesn't mean that the product still isn't aimed toward the giant box makers.

I do wish Microsoft had made some of these choices more prominently known. Losing money because of some niche line item rule sucks.

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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:We toast a beer to your brave adventure early adopter.

How do you tell the pioneers?

They're the ones with arrows in their backs.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:41 pm

As much as it pains me to admit it, I can see why there might be a very good reason for this limitation.

I expect what Microsoft is trying to do is to prevent system builders from deliberately selling substandard systems as Win 8 touch enabled.

What they want to avoid is customers saying "Windows 8 touch sucks," when what really sucks is the down-featured tablet or laptop they just bought. No, Microsoft is not on the hook for support if it's a system builder license, but hardware problems that look like OS problems still diminish their brand, and allow unscrupulous resellers to make dishonest sales at MS' expense.

Unfortunately, if this is correct, then it's unlikely that there will be a simple workaround for private users of system builder licenses. If MS allows a workaround for personal use, then the aforementioned resellers could use the same fix, defeating the whole purpose of the lockout.

This well and truly sucks eggs for folks like drfish, however, and there's no excuse at all for MS not better publicizing this limitation of the system builder license, both to prevent users being victimized by the policy, and to put resellers on notice that they will be prevented from selling not-really-touch-enabled systems.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:10 pm

If it is a perception issue they're worried about, why allow it on the upgrade and retail versions? Sure, they can pop up a warning during installation; but will people understand and remember that? And what about other people who use that PC? The person who installs the OS isn't necessarily the primary user, even for retail/upgrade versions.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:41 pm

Upgrade and retail are more likely to go on old machines and the end user will expect their existing touch experience to work.

OEMs don't need such flexibility. They're being forced to release hardware that supports five touch points minimum and they'd do it regardless just to get that Windows Logo sticker.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:05 pm

If it is a perception issue they're worried about, why allow it on the upgrade and retail versions?


The difference is that the upgrade and retail versions are intended to be installed on existing (i.e. old) systems by the current owners of the hardware. System builder licenses are intended (but not required) to be installed and then sold to a third party.

For existing owners of less-than-ideal hardware, the reduced touch feature set is not great, but not nearly as bad as what drfish experienced. MS wants to avoid making end users mad, so for user-performed installations, they chose the least offensive thing they could do.

For system builders selling to end users, MS would much rather upset the seller than the customer, so they make sure that down-rev hardware can't be sold as touch enabled, unless the builder/seller is willing to pay extra for a retail license (which would likely more than overshadow any extra profit made from cheaper hardware).

The flaw in this, of course, is that sometimes system builders are the end users, and they get screwed in this situation. The solution would have been to properly publicize this issue ahead of time to reviewers, who would in turn warn likely users of system builder licensing, who could opt for the upgrade license to avoid the problem.

Of course, Microsoft didn't do the truly smart thing because, well, they're Microsoft and this is the kind of stupid s**t they do. It's just that they're being partly "clever", and partly stupid in a non-obvious way that makes it look like they're just being evil.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that MS has taken stupid to a whole new level that most of us can never hope to attain.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:30 pm

setbit wrote:It's just that they're being partly "clever", and partly stupid in a non-obvious way that makes it look like they're just being evil.

I think I'm starting to agree with you.

I suppose we will know within the next few weeks whether this ridiculous "feature" is easy or difficult to subvert.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:19 am

Ryu Connor wrote:Upgrade and retail are more likely to go on old machines and the end user will expect their existing touch experience to work.

Is there a retail version of windows 8 though? Is there even one planned? I admit, I jumped into the system builder version without looking much at the alternatives, since I've used system builder versions plenty of times without problems on their old OSes, but as far as I know, the system builder version, for all intents and purposes, IS the retail version with Windows 8.
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Re: Win8 OEM and "Certified Touch Hardware"

Postposted on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:31 pm

Krynn72 wrote:
Ryu Connor wrote:Upgrade and retail are more likely to go on old machines and the end user will expect their existing touch experience to work.

Is there a retail version of windows 8 though? Is there even one planned? I admit, I jumped into the system builder version without looking much at the alternatives, since I've used system builder versions plenty of times without problems on their old OSes, but as far as I know, the system builder version, for all intents and purposes, IS the retail version with Windows 8.



There is but it's an upgrade copy only, for a fresh install of Windows/new system you need to purchase the System Builders variant... and forego touch.
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