Star Wars Episode 7??

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:51 am

clone wrote:you are comparing Star Wars's box office performance against Spider Man?.... really?....you want to reduce that series down to the level of Spider Man?


I am simply providing Box Office numbers, numbers which utterly demolish your ridiculous (and let me quote you) "disappointing at the box office" narrative.

clone wrote:Star Wars The Phantom menace was a comparative failure at the box office, no if's and's or but's about it not because it lost money which is not what happened but because it's Star Wars and it was a franchise that went from 1.5 billion in adjusted dollars down to less than half despite 22 years of hype.....


Again, it was #1 in the Box Office for 1999. There wasn't any other bigger movie that year. If that isn't success, what the heck are all the other movies? Same story for 2005, and the same story for 2002, except for just TWO movies (Two Towers and Spider-man). Are ALL of the movies for THREE ENTIRE years, except for just TWO, failures as well?

Were they as big as A New Hope? No, but a New Hope is #2 of adjusted movies of ALL TIME.

The prequels aren't box office failures because they didn't surpass A New Hope. Dude, BOTH Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi made roughly half of what A New Hope did. Are those "comparative failures?" :roll:

And, I might add, the Box Office market is different these days. Domestic used to be always larger than foreign, as it was for all three of the originals. But, that was reversed for the prequels.

clone wrote:the 2nd Star Wars trilogy did little better than Micheal Bay's recent Transformers trilogy and if you believe that is an epic success, an amazing achievement then I agree to disagree.


You're moving the goalposts. You were clearly taking about the Box Office and the market, and now you're evidently talking about quality or some such.

That's lame. Especially since Transformers was #3, Transformers Two was #2 and Transformers Three was #2 for their respective years. And, of course, the foreign revenues for those films were huge. The third transformers made DOUBLE it's domestic revenues in the foreign market, whereas for movies like Return of the Jedi, the foreign revenues were half of the domestic.

So if we are talking BOX OFFICE and the MARKET, yes, the Transformers franchise was a gigantic success.

I personally hate the movies, but that's a very different topic from the one you chose and are still, strangely, trying to defend.

clone wrote:2 things, those movies didn't affect the later generations the same way


I am a "later generation" and they did affect me the "same way". I guess I can't PROVE that, because there isn't any arguing with the "I was a fan before it was cool" mentality, but just because I never saw any of them in theaters doesn't mean I love them any less.

clone wrote:instead Lucas pandered to a crowd that didn't care nearly so much, killed his legacy and while financially successful did little better than Micheal Bay's Transformer trilogy.


...Which was huge and ridiculously successful. Perhaps not very good movies, but they are not box office failures by any stretch of the imagination.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:17 am

With all of this talk about potential directors for Episode 7... Surely their must be a humor piece about "What if Star Wars was directed by..."? You know, like what if automobiles were made by Microsoft/Unix/Debian sort of pages.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:33 am

Darkmage wrote:With all of this talk about potential directors for Episode 7... Surely their must be a humor piece about "What if Star Wars was directed by..."? You know, like what if automobiles were made by Microsoft/Unix/Debian sort of pages.

Ooh, that reminds me of a classic-era SNL where Woody Allen did Kirk as Woody, then Woody as Kirk.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:55 am

Darkmage wrote:With all of this talk about potential directors for Episode 7... Surely their must be a humor piece about "What if Star Wars was directed by..."? You know, like what if automobiles were made by Microsoft/Unix/Debian sort of pages.


You're skirting heresy, Candide! But why not :)
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:07 pm

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:29 pm

clone wrote:sigh..... didn't say SW: THM lost money, I'm saying it disappointed at the box office..... and it did.


I assume you mean SW: TPM, at any rate, I repeat that it was the #1 movie in 1999.

How is that disappointing?

clone wrote:it made less than half it's original in adjusted gross despite 22 years of hype..... that's disappointing, your comment that it made a profit is empty, uninsightful.


It made hundreds of millions in profits. Did it surpass the original? No, the only movie that ever has was "Gone with the Wind."

clone wrote:who cares, if a company was looking at a 1.5 billion dollar franchise do you really believe they'd be happy making .700.... it was a disappointment.


clone wrote:"Dude", The Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi made more than half of what A New Hope did and they were critically acclaimed, and a success with the fans, making them a success.... unlike The Phantom Menace which did none of the above.


Adjusted DOMESTIC Gross:

$779,554,300 The Empire Strikes Back
$746,831,700 Return of the Jedi
$717,077,900 The Phantom Menace

But, once again, that's only domestic. Let's look at the percentages of domestic vs. foreign.

Empire Strikes Back 54.0%
Return of the Jedi 65.1%
The Phantom Menace 46.2%

So, for the Phantom Menace: 780 / .54 = 1444
Jedi: 747 / .65 = 1149
Phantom: 717 / .46 = 1558

Thus The Phantom Menace made more in theaters than either of the original trilogy sequels.

clone wrote:I'm talking about the box office, the damage to the brand, the quality of the product, Star Wars The Phantom Menace was a disappointment on all fronts... but yes as you mentioned it did make more money than it cost to make..... big deal.


No, it actually made MORE money that TWO of three movies you claimed were successes. But, fine, that's foreign money, whatever.

The point is that your standard of Box Office disappointment is evidently so narrowly construed that unless a movie makes over .718 billion in adjusted DOMESTIC revenue, it's a failure.

Whereas .747 and .780 are smashing successes and worthy box office successors. :roll:

I'm just pointing out that your methodology doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and that's because it's just an empty ad hoc defense of something you claimed without thinking.

Why don't you just let it go?

clone wrote:fully agree the series was crap overall while also a financial success not just offshore but also domestically, that said I don't care about the offshore numbers, I'm comparing what can be not what can't, a good amount of the offshore countries were not emerging nations or worse still for Star Wars communist which limited it's offshore success at the time.

I left the offshore numbers out of the results for that reason.


Nonsense. You didn't leave them out. You didn't even know them. You just like making big sweeping statements and judgments, facts and reality be darned.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:36 pm

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:38 pm

And under Hollywood Accounting none of those films have turned a profit from the POV of those owed back-end points. David Prowse (a/k/a the dude in the Darth Vader robes) is quite vocal about it.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:45 pm

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:46 pm

I feel like the legacy of Star Wars is not the box office, not the characters, not th merchandise, but its ability to start nerdy arguments.

At any rate, carry on.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:47 pm

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:53 pm

clone wrote:of course I did, we both know about Box Office Mojo ace.


That's not what I am saying.

I knew how well the prequels did in theaters because my nerd friends and I routinely drink and discuss such things. We even have a joke, in that all discussions will converge in one of five topics:

1. The Lucasian Dolchstoßlegende (The Star Wars Franchise)
2. The epitome of secular humanism (The Star Trek Franchise)
3. Insular Meta-physics (The Lost TV show)
4. The merits of Blast ProcessingTM (Genesis v. NES)
5. Depth vs. Drab (Quake vs. Duke Nukem)

(there is probably a 6th topic in that the Transformers movies are crimes against God and Man, but that has not yet reached the inevitable repetition required for universal acclamation)

As you can see from our mutually agreed upon titles for these topics, we take them quite seriously. Thus I knew what you were saying about the box office failure of the prequels was bunkum even before I referenced Box Office Mojo to prove it.

clone wrote:it's epically pathetic of you to include the foreign numbers for obvious political and economic reasons prevalent in 1977 that aren't hindering performance today.


Oh, are you rating my attempts at argumentation now? Is my .717 not sufficient to reach a passing grade of .747 or .779? :roll:
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:55 pm

superjawes wrote:I feel like the legacy of Star Wars is not the box office, not the characters, not th merchandise, but its ability to start nerdy arguments.


Well, it certainly looks like that's something both clone and I can strongly agree with. :wink:
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:59 pm

Glorious wrote:1. The Lucasian Dolchstoßlegende (The Star Wars Franchise)

Is that a metaphor or are you trying to link the SW franchise to the stab-in-the-back belief of the German right-wing post-Versailles?
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:01 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Glorious wrote:1. The Lucasian Dolchstoßlegende (The Star Wars Franchise)

Is that a metaphor or are you trying to link the SW franchise to the stab-in-the-back belief of the German right-wing post-Versailles?

That's hilarious. I can't imagine the phrase can be used commonly, but seems to work for both post-1918 Germany and the so-called fan betrayal of Lucas with the prequel trilogy. I need friends that want to discuss such topics. My drinking circles were much more low-brow. (South Side Chicago represent!)
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:07 pm

Captain Ned wrote:Is that a metaphor or are you trying to link the SW franchise to the stab-in-the-back belief of the German right-wing post-Versailles?


It's a metaphor for betrayal, but since the iconography of the movie is so deeply steeped in the Nazi-oeuvre such links have been made, yes.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:12 pm

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:19 pm

hawkwing74 wrote:That's hilarious. I can't imagine the phrase can be used commonly, but seems to work for both post-1918 Germany and the so-called fan betrayal of Lucas with the prequel trilogy. I need friends that want to discuss such topics. My drinking circles were much more low-brow. (South Side Chicago represent!)


The best part of it is that there is a running controversy over whether or not the betrayal was:

1) Inevitable due to the special circumstances and real personality of George Lucas
2) Characteristic of directors like him and of his situation; that his betrayal speaks not of him but perhaps his generation.
3) A universal human tendency, one that tests all and Lucas failed to overcome.

This controversy neatly mirrors the conversation over the Sonderweg thesis. But I'm obviously a mark for the broad historically-based parallel. I think I referred to A New Hope, particularly the Throne Room scene, as the "Triumph of the Skill" to back-slapping acclaim once too, but now my friends are all having babies and crap like that so we haven't been up to much.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:23 pm

clone wrote:in response you compare it to Spider Man..... lol... I love that you did that.


You know what? Truce, truce.

Let us let it lie. We obviously see the world in very different ways, and we're just arguing whether or not your green is my red and vice versa.

What we both can agree with is that the prequels were disappointing, so we'll walk away from this in amicable concord, ok?
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:32 pm

Glorious wrote: but now my friends are all having babies and crap like that so we haven't been up to much.

Yes, this eroded my long-running D&D group. Sometimes we had more political, sports, or literary discussion than actual game time. Amazing what changes babies can bring. (Welcome Paulwtamu to this seismic event in your life)

When you say 3) Lucas failed to overcome...what did he fail to overcome? His pride that he can do no wrong? His failure to let competent directors and writers handle his ideas?
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:42 pm

clone wrote:are you serious... wait both trilogies or just the 2nd trilogy?
Pretty much all movies from the major studios are like this. For all the ranting and gnashing that goes on about corporations who pay no taxes and screw the little guy, in Hollywood they're actually true.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:52 pm

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:42 am

clone wrote:sure whatever, from this point forward I'm not talking to you, cheers and good luck in future endeavors, unless something changed it wasn't going to anyway.


Wow. Just wow. I was willing to just forget about the whole thing, but you just can't let anything go, can you?

clone wrote:notice I didn't mention the number of weeks in the top 10 rankings, Return of The Jedi spent 19, The Phantom Menace was out after 10..... now how anyone couldn't have thought Lucas wasn't disappointed is delusional..... big deal it turned a profit while destroying the franchise despite having everything going for it.


So, it "destroyed" a franchise that Lucas just sold for 4 billion dollars?

MAN, I could really use some devastation like that in my life. :roll:
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:30 am

Man, you guys have derailed this further than Lucas ever derailed Star Wars.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:44 am

Yeah seriously. No one cares about ticket sales. The new prequels blow, everyone knows this, debating any other side-argument is absolutely stupid. Yes, I am directly implying that at least two people in this thread are stupid. Because you are.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:15 pm

Argumentum ad populum is always a sign of wisdom.
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:27 pm

Hawkwing74 wrote:Argumentum ad populum is always a sign of wisdom.

/shrug
I'm assuming everyone here has seen this (apparently not?) , but it sums up pretty much every issue with the prequels imaginable ( AND what could have been done to differently ) http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:00 pm

lilbuddhaman wrote:Yeah seriously. No one cares about ticket sales. The new prequels blow, everyone knows this, debating any other side-argument is absolutely stupid. Yes, I am directly implying that at least two people in this thread are stupid. Because you are.


I agreed that they aren't any good. I disagreed about why.

They're not bad because they bombed at the Box Office or because they didn't quite reach the stratospheric heights of the originals.

They're not bad because they "didn't grow up" either. The prequels regressed, yes, but the originals didn't need to "grow up" in the first place.

lilbuddhaman wrote:I'm assuming everyone here has seen this (apparently not?) , but it sums up pretty much every issue with the prequels imaginable ( AND what could have been done to differently ) http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/


Well, yes, I like what Mike Stoklasa has to say. But if you think that the conversation is over and any side-argument is stupid, why are you even posting here?
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:13 pm

Glorious wrote:
clone wrote:sure whatever, from this point forward I'm not talking to you, cheers and good luck in future endeavors, unless something changed it wasn't going to anyway.


Wow. Just wow. I was willing to just forget about the whole thing, but you just can't let anything go, can you?


That is hilarious coming from you! You're totally not the type to glom onto something and not let go of it no matter what! Buahah!

clone, how dare you turn down his gracious offer! :D
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Re: Star Wars Episode 7??

Postposted on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:16 pm

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