Blu Ray Playback

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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:05 pm

Duplication of software for personal use is not illegal. They've NEVER proven that to be an issue its why you will find many ripping articles on legit websites for music, movies, etc. Ripping for purposes of distributing rather freely or paid is however illegal. The line in the sand between ripping a BD you bought vs one you rented is not visible at all legally as no one has ever gone to prison for ripping rented materials as long as they never distributed them in any fashion. That is the basis of my prior statement.

You more clearly break laws by pirating a software(indisputably illegal) to play a BD than buy getting a freeware ripping application and then using freeware file conversion software to take info of a BD and make it into a more standard and unprotected format. One has been prosecuted in the court of law while the other has not.

The irony is that they are literally encouraging you to Rip(atleast in the US) rather than simply view a rented BD. In my opinion Ripping should be the last thing that they actually encourage as that is probably the largest loss of income vs someone, god forbid, actually watch a BD they paid for in some fashion on a pc.

The Moral proposition put forth by the industry is to do the potentially greater wrong vs doing what is legally wrong though more right. Treating your patrons as criminals ultimately is simply indefensible.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Until the Librarian of Congress (somehow assigned copyright/fair use assignations under DMCA) states that defeating either the CSS encryption of DVDs or the AACS encryption of BluRays is acceptable for personal backup under Fair Use and not a violation of DMCA, links to sites or names of software products that offer same will be edited as Rule #1 violations.

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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:58 pm

Captain Ned wrote:Until the Librarian of Congress (somehow assigned copyright/fair use assignations under DMCA) states that defeating either the CSS encryption of DVDs or the AACS encryption of BluRays is acceptable for personal backup under Fair Use and not a violation of DMCA, links to sites or names of software products that offer same will be edited as Rule #1 violations.

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I don't understand what you said other than ripping of copyrighted media is protected under fair use.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 pm

Captain Ned wrote:It's not that BD playback is impossible on the PC. It's more like legal BD playback on the PC requires software costing about the same as a standalone player. Something tells me that that's not a bug, it's a feature.


Well said. I was totally unprepared for the BD fiasco when I began to check into adding a BD burner to my HTPC. It's such a frustrating mess to know what software to buy that works for me that I am quite prepared to throw in the towel, forget about BD for a few years and just stick with my DVDs for now.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:05 pm

Also much media and software has a EULA agreement that is not presented at the point of purchase. As such you typically can't return opened media of anykind yet you also aren't presented with the contractual conditions of your purchase till they are non refundable. There is allot of Morally and Legally bankrupt practices happening on both sides of the exchange/debate. The silly thing is watching an the media and software conglomerates' actions deliberately undermine its own intent. While the law may enforce the copyright licensing agreements on the media the law doesn't for the most part take any stance on fare use duplication. Its just strange I pay for my rental services and buy my movies and I'm being forced to essentially undermine the very act.

Its practices like this that make people allergic to sopa and other such acts.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:10 pm

Walkintarget wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:It's not that BD playback is impossible on the PC. It's more like legal BD playback on the PC requires software costing about the same as a standalone player. Something tells me that that's not a bug, it's a feature.


Well said. I was totally unprepared for the BD fiasco when I began to check into adding a BD burner to my HTPC. It's such a frustrating mess to know what software to buy that works for me that I am quite prepared to throw in the towel, forget about BD for a few years and just stick with my DVDs for now.


Its just silly that they try to make money in the most frustrating places and end of the day when a technically compitent hits those sorts of walls they won't conform to what MGM, Sony, and their buddies want. They are literally driving nerds to crack, workaround, rip, and torrent their stuff. I think that most of us would agree that paying 20-30 for a Blu ray may be expensive but its a price we choose to pay because we love the movie in question. The idea that you essentially have what amounts to a new tax of viewership after purchase is just not right as you are not notified of this during the purchase of the BD or BD drive. If any other industry did this they would not continue to exist.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:26 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:Until the Librarian of Congress (somehow assigned copyright/fair use assignations under DMCA) states that defeating either the CSS encryption of DVDs or the AACS encryption of BluRays is acceptable for personal backup under Fair Use and not a violation of DMCA, links to sites or names of software products that offer same will be edited as Rule #1 violations.

Read. Learn. Grok.

Thanks for listening.


I don't understand what you said other than ripping of copyrighted media is protected under fair use.

Circumventing CSS protection of DVDs seem to be now deemed ok for fair use, but for teachers and students only. No word on BD yet.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:33 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:Until the Librarian of Congress (somehow assigned copyright/fair use assignations under DMCA) states that defeating either the CSS encryption of DVDs or the AACS encryption of BluRays is acceptable for personal backup under Fair Use and not a violation of DMCA, links to sites or names of software products that offer same will be edited as Rule #1 violations.

Read. Learn. Grok.

Thanks for listening.


I don't understand what you said other than ripping of copyrighted media is protected under fair use.


Under US law (and now other countries as well, thanks to the US shoving it down their throat), it is illegal to circumvent schemes that protect against "illicit" copying. That means that breaking the encryption on DVDs and blu ray discs is illegal. Fair use doesn't come into it; fair use is only a defence against copyright infringement, and circumventing copy controls is not - in itself - copyright infringement.

The fact that few, if any, individuals have been prosecuted for such crimes does not alter the law. Expecting a site such as TR to allow discussion of mechanisms to break the law is naive, at best; they're a much higher profile target than any individual.

Now, you might argue that the law is a bad one. I would agree with that opinion. But that opinion doesn't alter the legality of certain software packages.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:52 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:I don't understand what you said other than ripping of copyrighted media is protected under fair use.

But the means to do so runs afoul of the DMCA prohibitions on the circumvention of copyright-protecting DRM, therefore any mention of apps that can perform same will be considered Rule #1 violations until the Librarian of Congress officially states the required DMCA exemption.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:56 pm

Flying Fox wrote:Circumventing CSS protection of DVDs seem to be now deemed ok for fair use, but for teachers and students only. No word on BD yet.

And 99.999% of the intent of the users here will not fall under that exemption, so Rule #1 applies until the exemption is broadened.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:00 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:Its just silly that they try to make money in the most frustrating places and end of the day when a technically compitent hits those sorts of walls they won't conform to what MGM, Sony, and their buddies want. They are literally driving nerds to crack, workaround, rip, and torrent their stuff. I think that most of us would agree that paying 20-30 for a Blu ray may be expensive but its a price we choose to pay because we love the movie in question. The idea that you essentially have what amounts to a new tax of viewership after purchase is just not right as you are not notified of this during the purchase of the BD or BD drive. If any other industry did this they would not continue to exist.

Dude, no matter how hard you channel RMS you're still standing for the proposition that you should have an unfettered right to piracy and frankly, it's getting tiresome.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:30 am

Captain Ned wrote:
kamikaziechameleon wrote:I don't understand what you said other than ripping of copyrighted media is protected under fair use.

But the means to do so runs afoul of the DMCA prohibitions on the circumvention of copyright-protecting DRM, therefore any mention of apps that can perform same will be considered Rule #1 violations until the Librarian of Congress officially states the required DMCA exemption.

Yup. Circumvention of DRM is illegal with few exceptions. Fair use doesn't explicitly make copying legal, it is an "affirmative defense" against an accusation of infringement -- i.e., the burden is on the accused to make the case that the copying falls within fair use guidelines.

Only a system cooked up by a bunch of lobbyists and lawyers could be this messed up.

All that aside, as the Cap'n says, until the DMCA changes or exceptions are explicitly made, discussion of DRM circumvention will continue to be considered a violation of the forum rules.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:59 am

just brew it! wrote:Fair use doesn't explicitly make copying legal, it is an "affirmative defense" against an accusation of infringement -- i.e., the burden is on the accused to make the case that the copying falls within fair use guidelines.

There's a fair use warning notice tacked to the wall above every photocopier in my office warning people not to copy more than specifically necessary of a copyrighted work so as to remain within the fair use guidelines.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:39 pm

Ok so this is the thing I find goofy about the entire situation legally. There is never a terms of use presented at the point of purchase with a physical media disk of any kind so you as a consumer would never know that their is a DRM measure on the disk. That being said I've never legally agreed to not do something as its never been deemed anything more than a disk with some copyrighted material on it. Copyright law is all that actually applies in this situation not any DRM laws or legislation because you as a consumer were never notified. As such you may notice its legal to rip CD's under copyright law, Windows Media player does it, you will notice its never been a problem baring distribution(morally and legally reprehensible piracy). Digital purchases and instillation of many software including games have a EULA at the point of purchase or very least install but BD, DVD, CD's have none of these. DRM without a EULA at purchase is not legitimate its why they can't and don't prosecute. DRM cracking as it is present isn't exactly illegal its just not legal in these instances. If it went to court the consumer argument would hold up seeing that an EULA was never presented. Those propositions being outlined its actually not illegal to do anything to the contents of a BD. Its why other larger news outlets have detailed the ripping of the devices for some time. Just make sure you don't pirate a powerDVD update, that is illegal.

I'm not trying to discuss how to break laws by any means as I don't aspire to do that at all. Just the legal maze we live in as PC builders trying to watch our purchased movie collection.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:40 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:Ok so this is the thing I find goofy about the entire situation legally. There is never a terms of use presented at the point of purchase with a physical media disk of any kind so you as a consumer would never know that their is a DRM measure on the disk. That being said I've never legally agreed to not do something as its never been deemed anything more than a disk with some copyrighted material on it. Copyright law is all that actually applies in this situation not any DRM laws or legislation because you as a consumer were never notified. As such you may notice its legal to rip CD's under copyright law, Windows Media player does it, you will notice its never been a problem baring distribution(morally and legally reprehensible piracy). Digital purchases and instillation of many software including games have a EULA at the point of purchase or very least install but BD, DVD, CD's have none of these. DRM without a EULA at purchase is not legitimate its why they can't and don't prosecute. DRM cracking as it is present isn't exactly illegal its just not legal in these instances. If it went to court the consumer argument would hold up seeing that an EULA was never presented. Those propositions being outlined its actually not illegal to do anything to the contents of a BD. Its why other larger news outlets have detailed the ripping of the devices for some time. Just make sure you don't pirate a powerDVD update, that is illegal.

I'm not trying to discuss how to break laws by any means as I don't aspire to do that at all. Just the legal maze we live in as PC builders trying to watch our purchased movie collection.

Until your claims are proven and judgement handed down from a court of law, your claim is just a claim. The problem is, are you so rich that you can afford teams of lawyers as big and competent as the content rights holders? Do you have the resources to mount legal challenges or even get the laws changed?
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:42 am

kamikaziechameleon wrote:I'm not trying to discuss how to break laws by any means as I don't aspire to do that at all. Just the legal maze we live in as PC builders trying to watch our purchased movie collection.

You're still missing the most important point. Fair Use is a defense available to those sued by copyright holders for infringement. It is not an affirmative permission to infringe copyright.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:00 am

The issue is that the DMCA explicitly makes it illegal to crack DRM or distribute tools to crack DRM, so a EULA (or lack thereof) doesn't even enter into it. This is why CD ripping software is legal - with only a few exceptions (e.g. Sony's DRM rootkit fiasco), audio CDs do not have any DRM. You don't see (legal) DVD/BD ripping software specifically because all commercial DVDs/BDs have DRM baked in, making it illegal to distribute DVD/BD ripping software that can crack the DRM.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:28 pm

just brew it! wrote:The issue is that the DMCA explicitly makes it illegal to crack DRM or distribute tools to crack DRM, so a EULA (or lack thereof) doesn't even enter into it. This is why CD ripping software is legal - with only a few exceptions (e.g. Sony's DRM rootkit fiasco), audio CDs do not have any DRM. You don't see (legal) DVD/BD ripping software specifically because all commercial DVDs/BDs have DRM baked in, making it illegal to distribute DVD/BD ripping software that can crack the DRM.


My point is that the DRM you are buying isn't advertised in the sale. The MEDIA, that isn't illegal to rip is. That kind of bait and switch is simply wrong and immoral.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:37 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:
just brew it! wrote:The issue is that the DMCA explicitly makes it illegal to crack DRM or distribute tools to crack DRM, so a EULA (or lack thereof) doesn't even enter into it. This is why CD ripping software is legal - with only a few exceptions (e.g. Sony's DRM rootkit fiasco), audio CDs do not have any DRM. You don't see (legal) DVD/BD ripping software specifically because all commercial DVDs/BDs have DRM baked in, making it illegal to distribute DVD/BD ripping software that can crack the DRM.


My point is that the DRM you are buying isn't advertised in the sale. The MEDIA, that isn't illegal to rip is. That kind of bait and switch is simply wrong and immoral.

Still does not mean you can break the law because you think the thing is wrong and immoral.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:49 am

Has there ever been a trial/hearing/case where company A has successfully prosecuted individual B for having an illegally-obtained copy of a movie they have legally purchased?

The whole thing is a huge legal fiasco on a scale not far-removed from the ridiculousness of the US patent system.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:26 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:Has there ever been a trial/hearing/case where company A has successfully prosecuted individual B for having an illegally-obtained copy of a movie they have legally purchased?

The whole thing is a huge legal fiasco on a scale not far-removed from the ridiculousness of the US patent system.


Good question. I don't think so. The defendant could play the media hardcore. Anonymous would start a hactovist campaign. Things would get crazy, lol. And yes the patent system is broken.

End of the day what is legal is not always right and what is illegal isn't always wrong. The question then becomes is breaking the law in and of itself immoral? Does the law acting in such a way undermine itself?? I'm inclined to say yes. At any rate when ever did the law take itself seriously enough??? Traffic laws are 90 percent BS, serving more as a means of income than as a way to protect individuals.

Ok sorry for derailing my own thread. I do believe in virtue and its pursuit. I'm not trying to do the wrong thing but I'm do believe there is something wrong on a moral level with the implementation of DRM in legitimately obtained material and licensing people the right to view the content THEY BOUGHT.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:12 pm

I don't believe there's been a case where an individual breaks DRM, thus violating the DMCA, but doesn't do any further copyright infringement by sharing the files (I say further because I *think* the sole act of breaking DRM and violating the DMCA counts as copyright infringement?). Every case that gains notoriety includes clear copyright infringement via filesharing - no one has been tried for breaking DRM for their own personal fair use. The reason there's been no such case is pretty clear to me - besides being much harder to detect, personal fair use has a much longer and stronger case history than the DRM/DMCA copyright infringement cases, so if such a case was tried it's highly likely parts of the DMCA regarding breaking DRM for personal fair use would be struck down and the publishers don't want that. I do hope that eventually such a case will come to trial and this whole cowboy age of the internet and digital technology will have rules that are aligned across different legal concepts.
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:08 pm

MadManOriginal wrote:if such a case was tried it's highly likely parts of the DMCA regarding breaking DRM for personal fair use would be struck down and the publishers don't want that.


Aha, there's the clincher :)

It's "law" per se, but is used as a threat for scaremongering because it would never stand up as law after being excercised in an actual coutroom.

My god, the US legal system is a mucking fess!
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Re: Blu Ray Playback

Postposted on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:22 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
MadManOriginal wrote:if such a case was tried it's highly likely parts of the DMCA regarding breaking DRM for personal fair use would be struck down and the publishers don't want that.


Aha, there's the clincher :)

It's "law" per se, but is used as a threat for scaremongering because it would never stand up as law after being excercised in an actual coutroom.

My god, the US legal system is a mucking fess!
(not that UK/EU law is perfect, either)



Its a law bought and paid for by corporate interests at the expense of the consumers that made said corporation
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