HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

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HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:56 am

So 2013 is the year of the desktop upgrade! The PC may be dying, but we can certainly tick a few items off the bucket list before it goes.

Here's what I'm running right now, with most of the components having just turned 5 years old:

1. CPU: Core 2 e8400 OC'd moderately to 3.6 Ghz.
2. 8 GB of DDR2-1066 RAM
3. Asus X38 motherboard
4. Geforce GTX-560 (non-TI) graphics card (this is a newer addition obviously).*
5. 128 GB Crucial C300 SSD (stores the OS + most applications, bought in 2010).
6. Asus Xonar DX (PCIe version).*
7. I also have access to 2 TB storage server using ATA-over-ethernet, but I'm going to retire the storage server when I do the upgrade.
8. Case: Antec 900
9. PSU: Some sort of Corsair 650 watt (works fine but not a modular PSU design).
10. LG Bluray ROM (burns DVDs, reads Blurays)*

Note: Items with a * next to them are being brought over to the new system. I will be upgrading GPU, but will likely wait for Maxwell in 2014.

Here's my proposed new system with a few placeholders for items that aren't on the market yet:

1. CPU: Haswell 4770K (I run Linux, I do a fair amount of compiling, the hyperthreading is actually useful and not just there to be seen)
2. GPU: Still the 560 (waiting for Maxwell or AMD to get its drivers in order for Linux before an upgrade)
3. Motherboard: Some z87 chipset setup, preferably with 4 USB 3's out the back and headers for 2 more USB 3's on the front. Thunderbolt would be great to have if it isn't too expensive. Standard ATX size.
4. SSD's:
  • a. Either a Samsung 840 Pro or OCZ Vector @ 512GB for system drive
  • b. A Micron m500 960GB for larger data storage (replaces the 2 TB external storage array that I'm really not filling up in any meaningful
    way).
5. RAM: 32 GB of DDR3-2133 (or faster if reasonably available)
6. Cooling: A 280mm closed-loop radiator. I'm leaning toward the Corsair H110 (I will be replacing the fans, and I would like to get the CPU OC'd to 5 GHz)
7. Case: I'm leaning toward the NZXT Switch 810, likely the matte-black or gunmetal edition to avoid fingerprint smudges.
8. PSU: Silverstone 750 modular

So.... any thoughts? Anyone else out there planning a Haswell build later this year?
Last edited by chuckula on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; GTX-770; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:43 am

I'd get an i5, with new motherboard, 8GB DDR3, maybe 16, and perhaps if you really need, a new graphics card. I would keep the rest and I think that 32GB is an overkill unless some very specific applications.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:54 am

jokinin wrote:I'd get an i5, with new motherboard, 8GB DDR3, maybe 16, and perhaps if you really need, a new graphics card. I would keep the rest and I think that 32GB is an overkill unless some very specific applications.


If I were building this thing for gaming then I'd go with the i5, but while I do play some games, those are more of a secondary use. As for RAM, I could drop back to 16 GB with 2 8GB sticks initially with room for an upgrade later. One reason that I have for getting 32GB is to have a 16GB RAM drive for use during larger compile jobs to speed things up and to reduce stress on the SSDs.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:43 am

I did get 2x8GB DDR3 DIMMS , but memory usage rarely goes up more than 4 or 5GB. I did try some heavy virtual machine load and it went up to 6GB, CPU didn't seem to suffer much, that's why I suggested you an i5 with 8 or 16GB.
Just as a curiosity, what kind of work justifies an i7 paired with 32GB?
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:48 am

It's a long haul upgrade. If he can afford 32GB, he might as well.

I'm considering the same thing myself. When I built my current rig (a C2Q system), I specced it out for 8GB which was overkill six years ago. Nowadays, laptops come with that much RAM.

Since Haswell looks like it'll come out in the second half of 2013, I'll see what the reviews are, how well it overclocks and wait a couple months to see if any problems crop up with the new architecture. Then I'll get all the parts around Christmas. Might be the last PC I'll have to build if all the pundits predicting the world taken over by tablets and stuff prove right. At the very least, it'll be a long time before I need to upgrade again if my last system was anything to go by.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:05 pm

jokinin wrote:Just as a curiosity, what kind of work justifies an i7 paired with 32GB?


Compiling, VMs, and the occasional heavy-duty OCR run using Tesseract (I have an old core2 quad at work that spent about 3 days maxed out doing OCR on a couple hundred thousand PDFs once). I'm really a big fan of RAM drives for storing intermediate data since they are good for speed and for relieving stress on the SSD, so up to 16 GB will be devoted to the RAM drive, leaving (worst-case) 16 GB available for other uses. For example, during compiling the compiler itself usually doesn't use too much memory, but a recent run for compiling Firefox used about 7 GB of temporary disk space. I'm sure not going to use it all just running desktop applications, but I'd rather have it & not need it than the reverse.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:30 pm

I haven't used ramdisks and things like smartdrive (an old ram based hard disc cache), since MSDOS time (yes, I'm that old). I thought they weren't necessary anymore with such huge amounts of RAM we have nowadays.
A stupid question, what kind of software do you need to make a ramdisk?
I must say I'm impressed you process "a couple of hundred thousand PDFs" :o , that's a lot, and now I understand why you need so much RAM :)
Why you compile Firefox? Are you using some gentoo-kind linux?
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:49 pm

I'm planning a Haswell upgrade too. Could be the last desktop upgrade the way things are going. I'm having a very hard time waiting, though, and have been tempted hard by Ivy. Single thread performance remains important to me, but multi thread performance is just as important. I run VMs and do CAD work, rendering, and go through bouts of video encoding. One thing I don't do at all is play games; my 5780 is sitting in a drawer while I run a HD 4350.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:44 pm

jokinin wrote:I haven't used ramdisks and things like smartdrive (an old ram based hard disc cache), since MSDOS time (yes, I'm that old). I thought they weren't necessary anymore with such huge amounts of RAM we have nowadays.
A stupid question, what kind of software do you need to make a ramdisk?
I must say I'm impressed you process "a couple of hundred thousand PDFs" :o , that's a lot, and now I understand why you need so much RAM :)
Why you compile Firefox? Are you using some gentoo-kind linux?


Yeah, my day job isn't doing crazy data mining or anything like that, but every so often you get these random tasks where you want to have the spare capacity. Obviously the real pros have big compute clusters for this sort of stuff, but I manage with what I've got. Also, just like this Core2 build has lasted 5+ years, the Haswell box will likely be around just as long, especially since the pace of development for desktop hardware has slowed down.

I'm getting into doing more compiling of packages for my Linux box. I actually used Gentoo way back in the day (2002 - 2004) when I was doing hardcore code development. I've gotten away from it, but I'm going to be switching to Sabayon Linux, which is based on Gentoo but lets you pick & choose between binary packages and compiled packages more easily.

As for setting up ramdisks, under Linux you just use a special filesystem type called "tmpfs" to mount a directory as a ramdisk. Many Linux systems store their temporary data in the /tmp directory, and you can specify that everything in the /tmp directory should be in a ramdisk by making an entry in the fstab file (google has nicer explanations). Under Windows, there are various ramdisk software packages available. The good ol' "smartdrive" application or modern equivalent isn't present in Windows anymore, but there are a good number of applications out there that do the same job.
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; GTX-770; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:43 pm

[quote="chuckula"]So 2013 is the year of the desktop upgrade! The PC may be dying, but we can certainly tick a few items off the bucket list before it goes.

Here's what I'm running right now, with most of the components having just turned 5 years old:

1. CPU: Core 2 e8400 OC'd moderately to 3.6 Ghz.
2. 8 GB of DDR2-1066 RAM
3. Asus X38 motherboard

Is it the mobo that's dying? If not send it to me :)

Haswell....................cmon we all know you want an old school Sempron ;)
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:50 pm

anotherengineer wrote:
chuckula wrote:So 2013 is the year of the desktop upgrade! The PC may be dying, but we can certainly tick a few items off the bucket list before it goes.

Here's what I'm running right now, with most of the components having just turned 5 years old:

1. CPU: Core 2 e8400 OC'd moderately to 3.6 Ghz.
2. 8 GB of DDR2-1066 RAM
3. Asus X38 motherboard

Is it the mobo that's dying? If not send it to me :)

Haswell....................cmon we all know you want an old school Sempron ;)



:lol: No, the motherboard is fully operational and has been rock-solid supporting my overclocked CPU for the last 5 years with multi-month uptimes in that stretch. When the actual time comes for the upgrade (June at the absolute earliest and likely a little later), I'll probably post some build photos and then I'll be happy to take any inquiries about my old system (if it doesn't get pressed into service somewhere else that is).

With all the talk about compiling and your mention of the Sempron, I was just remembering that I began using Gentoo with an Athlon XP 2400 back in 2003 or so... those were the days!
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; GTX-770; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:56 pm

Sound like "price is no object" kind of build.

You could probably half the cost of your upgrade and only get a 10% overall slower build time.

I also wonder if the i7-4770k will be so costly ($350 +) that using going lga 2011 would be a much better option.

To me haswell on desktop makes little sense.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:25 pm

[quote="sschaem"]Sound like "price is no object" kind of build.

In that case just get a Sandy with 128GB of ram NOW
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813131886
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6819117273
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820239276

Mobo + cpu + ram = 370+1100(x2)=520(x2) = 3600!
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:31 pm

sschaem wrote:Sound like "price is no object" kind of build.

You could probably half the cost of your upgrade and only get a 10% overall slower build time.

I also wonder if the i7-4770k will be so costly ($350 +) that using going lga 2011 would be a much better option.

To me haswell on desktop makes little sense.


Interestly... I do admit that the system I'm speccing out above ain't cheap, but when you break down the prices you'll see that SSDs + RAM are probably 60% of the total price (I'm not detailing price listings just yet because prices will change by the time I purchase, and not all the parts are even available yet). Even if the 4770K goes back up to $350 in price, it will still likely only be ~20% of the total price of the system.

LGA-2011 would be an awesome platform if Intel kept it up to date, but with zero native USB 3 and not so stellar SATA options in the consumer-level boards, I'm not really sold on it. If you want a real CPU that goes beyond a desktop Ivy Bridge, then you need to get a > $500 3930K, and the LGA-2011 motherboards are definitely pricier as well. On top of all that, even Ivy-Bridge E won't be out until the end of the year, and Haswell includes some really exciting architectural features like AVX2/FMA/TSX support that will buy additional performance over time as software gets updated to use them. If you *really* need 6+ cores, then LGA-2011 is quite powerful, but for my purposes Haswell is definitely a better choice.
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; GTX-770; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:37 pm

anotherengineer wrote:
sschaem wrote:Sound like "price is no object" kind of build.

In that case just get a Sandy with 128GB of ram NOW
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813131886
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6819117273
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820239276

Mobo + cpu + ram = 370+1100(x2)=520(x2) = 3600!


LMAO... Exactly. I'm estimating that my total build will end up in the ~$2000 - 2500 range, and that includes little incidentals like storage (where I know I'm spending a bunch), power supply, and the case.
Last edited by chuckula on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; GTX-770; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:37 pm

I would seriously consider buying the RAM now. The price is only going up right now and is likely to do so all the way up to Haswell's launch. I suppose it could be kind of scary if you have no way of testing it before the new build, but if you can find a way I'd save a few bucks.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:40 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:I would seriously consider buying the RAM now. The price is only going up right now and is likely to do so all the way up to Haswell's launch. I suppose it could be kind of scary if you have no way of testing it before the new build, but if you can find a way I'd save a few bucks.


I tend to agree, but the inability to test the RAM before the return period expires is scaring me off. I'm hoping against hope that while overall RAM prices might rise, there will be an influx of higher-density modules that keep the prices stable or even lower them at the high end, since those parts were selling at inflated prices anyway even when regular ram was at the bottom (they never said I was sane before I broke out of that asylum).
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:00 pm

Hmm, that's a good point, I should look into getting the RAM early too... something like two sets of these: http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=78184 ... omoid=1139
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:19 pm

chuckula wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:I would seriously consider buying the RAM now. The price is only going up right now and is likely to do so all the way up to Haswell's launch. I suppose it could be kind of scary if you have no way of testing it before the new build, but if you can find a way I'd save a few bucks.


I tend to agree, but the inability to test the RAM before the return period expires is scaring me off. I'm hoping against hope that while overall RAM prices might rise, there will be an influx of higher-density modules that keep the prices stable or even lower them at the high end, since those parts were selling at inflated prices anyway even when regular ram was at the bottom (they never said I was sane before I broke out of that asylum).


You can RMA through the manufacturer if necessary so that shouldn't be a factor.

As for higher density, it depends on new process tech coming on line (all other things like market forces being equal). I'm not aware of that happening by mid-year, right now we are the in the "ramp up/improvement" phase of 20nm class RAM where we see higher speeds at the same prices. If you'll over clock hard, that would be a reason to wait plus 6 months is a long time to plan.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:52 pm

You're gonna have to update your siggie, chuckula! (=`ェ´=)
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:46 am

As for setting up ramdisks, under Linux you just use a special filesystem type called "tmpfs" to mount a directory as a ramdisk. Many Linux systems store their temporary data in the /tmp directory, and you can specify that everything in the /tmp directory should be in a ramdisk by making an entry in the fstab file (google has nicer explanations). Under Windows, there are various ramdisk software packages available. The good ol' "smartdrive" application or modern equivalent isn't present in Windows anymore, but there are a good number of applications out there that do the same job.

Thanks for your reply, very interesting indeed, I must try this tmpfs thing :)
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:59 am

auxy wrote:(=`ェ´=)


Do you have a text file full of these that you copy/paste from?
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:42 pm

flip-mode wrote:
auxy wrote:(=`ェ´=)


Do you have a text file full of these that you copy/paste from?

Don't be such a meanie! :x
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:51 pm

auxy wrote:You're gonna have to update your siggie, chuckula! (=`ェ´=)


You raise an excellent point: I'm really going to need something new for that signature (at least for a few months :-P )
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:01 pm

Here's a new wrinkle:

How about a Fractal Design XL R2 as the case? It lacks some of the bells & whitles of the NZXT, but it looks amazing, has a higher build quality, includes sound-proofing material, and it can still fit a 280mm radiator (oh and it's $40-50 cheaper than the NZXT)... it's good to see some interesting case choices.
Last edited by chuckula on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:15 pm

chuckula wrote:Here's a new wrinkle:

How about a Fractal Design XL R2 as the case? It lacks some of the bells & whitles of the NZXT, but it looks amazing, has a higher build quality, includes sound-proofing material, and it can still fit a 280mm radiator (oh and its' $40-50 cheaper than the NZXT)... it's good to see some interesting case choices.

Looks interesting, but... I don't see how exactly the filter for bottom fan works - is it removable? Also, kind of lame for them to make so many fan holes but not include extra front and side fans or "spacers" to plug in unused fan holes in order to properly manage airflow and decrease unfiltered air intake :-?
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:19 pm

JohnC wrote:
chuckula wrote:Here's a new wrinkle:

How about a Fractal Design XL R2 as the case? It lacks some of the bells & whitles of the NZXT, but it looks amazing, has a higher build quality, includes sound-proofing material, and it can still fit a 280mm radiator (oh and its' $40-50 cheaper than the NZXT)... it's good to see some interesting case choices.

Looks interesting, but... I don't see how exactly the filter for bottom fan works - is it removable? Also, kind of lame for them to make so many fan holes but not include extra front and side fans or "spacers" to plug in unused fan holes in order to properly manage airflow and decrease unfiltered air intake :-?



The bottom fan filter is removable. See this video (in general) and at 5:25 in particular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCFwk_S-Cio
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:24 pm

Yea, I see. Might be a problem for some people to remove it this way... I prefer when all intake holes are either in front or on sides - this way I can, for example, just vacuum them all every couple of months without moving the case or removing the filters from it... But it seems like case manufacturers are all adding in unnecessary annoyances nowadays :(
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:47 am

flip-mode wrote:
auxy wrote:(=`ェ´=)

Do you have a text file full of these that you copy/paste from?

I have them all set up in my input method extension for Japanese; I simply type an emotion (that is, the name for it in Japanese) and press spacebar; a whole list of appropriate emoticons comes up. They're called kaomoji.

As far as something on topic, have you considered moving to a smaller form factor? Given Haswell's lower power consumption and heat output, this might be a good time to consider moving to a smaller machine.

Sorry if this was already brought up or discussed earlier in the thread, I didn't read the thread very well because I'm posting from my cellphone.

[edit] I've read through the thread now, and my remarks:
chuckula wrote:1. CPU: Haswell 4770K
• A good choice, I guess, although I'd probably look for a comparable Xeon to see if there's a cheaper solution like the current E3-1230v2.
chuckula wrote:2. GPU: Still the 560
• Woo GF114! Me too! (◕‿◕✿) Still performs like a champ.
chuckula wrote:3. Motherboard: (...) Standard ATX size.
• Why standard ATX? Unnecessary... I'd really look at a smaller solution. I mean, it's your machine, so it's your preference, but I am really enamored of the tiny, powerful PCs that you can build these days. Of course, maybe I'm just attracted to small, cute things... (✿◠‿◠)
chuckula wrote:4. SSD's:
•a. Either a Samsung 840 Pro or OCZ Vector @ 512GB for system drive
•b. A Micron m500 960GB for larger data storage
• Nice!
chuckula wrote:5. RAM: 32 GB of DDR3-2133 (or faster if reasonably available)
• Why such high RAM clock? Unnecessary... I run 32GB of RAM myself, but it's "only" DDR3-1866, and even that is excessive. Haswell might move to 1866Mhz, but I think 2133 will still be overkill.
Last edited by auxy on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
i5-3570K @ 4.4 (NH-C14), 4x8GB DDR3-1866, GA-Z68MA-D3H-B2, ASUS GTXTITAN-6GD5, 128GB Vertex 4 / 2x60GB Vertex Plus R2 / 2x2TB Barracuda 7200.14 RAID0 / ANS-9010 (4x4GB), SST-DA1000 (PSU), 2x VS229H-P, 1x VG248QE, 1x MIMO 720F, Corsair Vengeance K90+M95
auxy
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Re: HASWELL TIME!!! (OK, maybe later this year)

Postposted on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:07 am

Japanese emotion from the armpit of Texas. I love the Internet.
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Gerbil Khan
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