Destructive ideology

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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:36 pm

PenGun wrote:It's not hard to see why Richard is upset. At least make it plain in the front what is happening. Still you can see why a lover of, and serious contributor, to *nix would be somewhat upset by the entire dumbing down process

Again with this idea that user-friendliness is bad? I like hitting a single key, typing a couple of keystrokes, and having the matching files presented to me instantaneously in reverse chronological order. It makes using the computer easier. What's so offensive about that?
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:44 pm

grantmeaname wrote:
kc77 wrote:Yeah my data and I'm not giving you that. You don't have to believe me. You can completely believe that what they record is completely innocuous. It's your right to believe what you will.

If it's standard practice, why has no other Ubuntu user noticed the problem?

Considering you haven't actually provided any of your own personal information. Why don't you provide your own directly from your own computer. If you aren't willing to do that then really stop asking for me to give you my information. But here's what Zeitgeist is capable of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_(framework)


grantmeaname wrote:First, zeitgeist is not "someone", its a service that runs on your local machine and nowhere else (except apparently your zeitgeist service, which I'm told exists solely to give Mark Shuttleworth your Neopets account). It is neither sentient nor capable of caring what you do. Second, it doesn't take your data, it records what mime types you opened with what applications at what times. Third, what zeitgeist does for the operating system -- providing a list of recently manipulated files -- is functionality that's been available in Windows since at least XP. It's necessary and useful. So yes, I fall into the category of people who aren't offended by zeitgeist.


Why are you giving me the definition of what zeitgeist does when I told you about it posts ago? What you just stumbled onto it just now? Zeitgeist has been around for ages. I'm not afraid of my data being cataloged locally, which I told you posts ago. You may be the person who isn't offended by Zeitgeist but you are also a person who can't read too well.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:55 pm

PenGun wrote:It's not hard to see why Richard is upset. At least make it plain in the front what is happening. Still you can see why a lover of, and serious contributor, to *nix would be somewhat upset by the entire dumbing down process.

You still haven't exactly explained what zeitgeist is doing that is a privacy issue.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:58 am

Seems to me the argument goes something like "Oh noes, it's storing potentially sensitive personal data and could be sending it somewhere!"

Canonical certainly did not help matters by enabling the "shopping lens" feature by default, and further compounding the issue by using unencrypted HTTP connections to implement it. Dumb move. But where some people see evil intent, I merely see ineptness on the part of the people who designed and implemented that feature. It doesn't necessarily make Ubuntu a bad OS overall.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:57 am

kc77 wrote:Considering you haven't actually provided any of your own personal information. Why don't you provide your own directly from your own computer. If you aren't willing to do that then really stop asking for me to give you my information.

I didn't ask you to provide me with your Neopets account's password. I asked why you're the only member of such a large and privacy-conscious community who has noticed this problem. If it's happening to other people than you, wouldn't Shuttleworth have a lot more Neopoints and angry dissidents right now?

Why are you giving me the definition of what zeitgeist does when I told you about it posts ago?

Because you continue to misstate it.

I'm not afraid of my data being cataloged locally, which I told you posts ago.

Then what is your problem with zeitgeist?
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:10 pm

morphine wrote:
PenGun wrote:It's not hard to see why Richard is upset. At least make it plain in the front what is happening. Still you can see why a lover of, and serious contributor, to *nix would be somewhat upset by the entire dumbing down process.

You still haven't exactly explained what zeitgeist is doing that is a privacy issue.


I sometimes wonder about reading skills here. I made it quite plain it's a dumbing down of a *nix example.

It may mean nothing to you, but making Ubuntu more like windose is not at all a step in the right direction, in my opinion.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:13 pm

grantmeaname wrote:
PenGun wrote:It's not hard to see why Richard is upset. At least make it plain in the front what is happening. Still you can see why a lover of, and serious contributor, to *nix would be somewhat upset by the entire dumbing down process

Again with this idea that user-friendliness is bad? I like hitting a single key, typing a couple of keystrokes, and having the matching files presented to me instantaneously in reverse chronological order. It makes using the computer easier. What's so offensive about that?


Well use windows then. It's not a feature I have ever used or needed in ... what 17 years of Lunix use.

Also 'user hostile' is a feature too you understand, not a bug.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:40 pm

I sent this as a PM. It seemed appropriate to post it here:

Linux is free software. There is no need to make anyone like it. For a long time I evangelized along with everyone else but over the years I have seen what people have done with and to it and ya know I just don't care anymore.

No one except those who would profit from it care if more people use it. I and I suspect many Linux users would like you to go back to your windose and mac systems and quite trying to change a very beautiful thing into another stupid toy that any moron can use.

User hostile is basic to *nix and you have to learn it's language if you want to talk to it. Once you do that you have a powerful and very reasonable tool that is like no other OS.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:18 pm

Thanks for that brilliantly reasoned opinion. Have fun with your BSDSM, but know that the water's fine over here in Ubuntu too.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:15 am

grantmeaname wrote:Thanks for that brilliantly reasoned opinion. Have fun with your BSDSM, but know that the water's fine over here in Ubuntu too.


I think I am going to steal BSDSM from you, good sir.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:41 am

PenGun wrote:I sent this as a PM. It seemed appropriate to post it here:

Linux is free software. There is no need to make anyone like it. For a long time I evangelized along with everyone else but over the years I have seen what people have done with and to it and ya know I just don't care anymore.

No one except those who would profit from it care if more people use it. I and I suspect many Linux users would like you to go back to your windose and mac systems and quite trying to change a very beautiful thing into another stupid toy that any moron can use.

User hostile is basic to *nix and you have to learn it's language if you want to talk to it. Once you do that you have a powerful and very reasonable tool that is like no other OS.


I felt the need to give rebuttal to your post.

I hear you and i agree that this "dumbing down" thing is anathema to the real hardcore linux users. But allow me to temper it with a dose of reality. Unix and all its decedents including linux are very successful in many other computing areas since it lends very well to their flexibility. In the desktop, it is one where a company enjoys a near monopoly and stranglehold on it. Broaden your perspective and think of the grander scheme of things. Let's us not kid ourselves.

For linux to gain mainstream acceptance (desktop market) it will have to do what it has always done brilliantly: flexibility. Nobody is forcing the hardcore users to install ubuntu. Ubuntu is aimed at a different market, and even i admit its usefulness and benefit in the grand scheme of things. That's the great advantage that linux has, and one that frankly it is not being exploited. Why should we be alarmed if a linux distro goes out of its way to be user-friendly and not "user-hostile". Remenber, we are fighting a battle against someone with an entrenched position in the market. We are fighting to evangelize and convert these masses that don't know any better that a better computing experience can be had. We are in no way abandoning the command line or any of the things that hardcore fans love, but remember that if we manage to gain mainstream acceptance, it WILL benefit the hardcore fan since OEMs won't be able to ignore such an important segment of the market, which means better linux support!

This brings us to the next logical conclusion: not every linux user needs to be completely versed in all the ins and outs of linux administration. This is a very important point to accept. It is division of labor. Every advanced economy has division of labor. So what if Susie the paralegal doesn't care about the command line, and just wants enough for the system to work with minimal administration, and do her work? It is fine, and it makes sense. Training and expecting every linux user to be an expert in linux administration is a fool's errand, and it works against us in this battle. A linux user doesn't need to be a developer to appreciate all the benefits that linux brings, but to know that its computing experience is the best that it can be that satisfies its need.

I await your rebuttal.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:02 am

PenGun wrote:
morphine wrote:
PenGun wrote:It's not hard to see why Richard is upset. At least make it plain in the front what is happening. Still you can see why a lover of, and serious contributor, to *nix would be somewhat upset by the entire dumbing down process.

You still haven't exactly explained what zeitgeist is doing that is a privacy issue.

I sometimes wonder about reading skills here. I made it quite plain it's a dumbing down of a *nix example.
It may mean nothing to you, but making Ubuntu more like windose is not at all a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

My reading skills are fine, thanks.

The whole "windose" and "dumbing down" thing... did you come from Slashdot in 1999 with all that knee-jerking and open-source arrogance? I mean, it seems you fit the title of the thread just fine.

Here's what's going to happen: you're going to keep raging on about how much "windose" sucks and Ubuntu sucks and anything above a 80x25 terminal sucks, and the rest of the world is going to move on without you.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:54 am

@uni-mitation - I agree with your sentiments. I do have to wonder how *relevant* it would be for Linux to gain mainstream acceptance on the desktop at this point though, given that much of the world seems to be moving on. Linux is already accepted in the mobile/embedded space and in the datacenter (where most of the growth seems to be these days).

@morphone - I get the impression he'd actually be happy if the rest of the world moved on without him. And yeah, he may very well get his wish.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:57 am

If I could get the world to leave me behind I would be very happy. As that won't be happening soon, well I am old, so hopefully not very soon, I must go on.

You are missing the point.

You are welcome to do whatever you want with free software. It's FREE SOFTWARE. I don't know about open sores but hey, you guys call it FOSS. I don't have to like what you do with it but that's fine too.

Linux is what it is, Linus's kernel and a stack of utilities which largely come form the GNU effort. Richard Stallman is GNU for the most part, although many contributed. To have our fine OP call Richard a destroyer of both Linux and it's progress by criticizing, as Destructive Ideology, Richard's objection to Ubuntu just taking your data to do with as it pleases is really stupid.

I'm used to this stupidity and largely ignore it but once in a while I react.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:59 pm

grantmeaname wrote:
kc77 wrote:Considering you haven't actually provided any of your own personal information. Why don't you provide your own directly from your own computer. If you aren't willing to do that then really stop asking for me to give you my information.

I didn't ask you to provide me with your Neopets account's password. I asked why you're the only member of such a large and privacy-conscious community who has noticed this problem. If it's happening to other people than you, wouldn't Shuttleworth have a lot more Neopoints and angry dissidents right now?

Um they do. Since Mark Shuttleworth himself came out and spoke about it and even included information on what would be changed in 13.04 specifically about the privacy setting ( along with the bug that was submitted about it )I'm pretty sure it's not "just me".

Mark Shuttleworth Addresses Ubuntu Privacy Issues: Is It Enough?

I'm pretty sure I don't own the site muktware nor have I stuck my hand up Mark's derriere to make him put out a statement. It's pretty obvious trying to isolate my point of view would be relatively futile since there's more than enough articles out there talking about the thing that you suggest is only experienced by "just me".

Because you continue to misstate it.

Nope not really considering your own link you posted a while ago said it did the same things I said it did. It's pretty clear that I'm not misstating anything.

Then what is your problem with zeitgeist?

Oh my god. The answer to that question was given and I'm not going to repeat myself just for fun. Playing deaf, dumb, blind, crippled, and crazy isn't a defense.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:00 pm

Maybe if there were substantial content in your posts and behind your argument, you would rely on it instead of dozens of variations of "you're stupid".
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:38 pm

PenGun wrote:If I could get the world to leave me behind I would be very happy. As that won't be happening soon, well I am old, so hopefully not very soon, I must go on.

You are missing the point.

You are welcome to do whatever you want with free software. It's FREE SOFTWARE. I don't know about open sores but hey, you guys call it FOSS. I don't have to like what you do with it but that's fine too.

Linux is what it is, Linus's kernel and a stack of utilities which largely come form the GNU effort. Richard Stallman is GNU for the most part, although many contributed. To have our fine OP call Richard a destroyer of both Linux and it's progress by criticizing, as Destructive Ideology, Richard's objection to Ubuntu just taking your data to do with as it pleases is really stupid.

I'm used to this stupidity and largely ignore it but once in a while I react.


The last point that you make has merit. RMS is doing right by bringing awareness of the privacy issue in play. A privacy issue that Canonical could have easily dealt with if they would simply prompt the user of enabling such feature. What i think RMS does wrong is in the manner that he goes overboard with it like it is the end of the world. But you know what? I just chalk it up to RMS being RMS because that is what he has always done, and i have no reason to believe that he will change.

I would say that thanks to RMS' ideology, we have a few things to be grateful, and that to me doesn't sound destructive. Let's weight things at a grander scale, and you should see that bringing the masses into the fold is beneficial to all users of Free Software. A war of might is not won by who has the moral advantage, but by who manages to crush its opponent with the use of all its tools.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:48 pm

..... Meh I'll be nice.
Last edited by kc77 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:49 pm

uni-mitation wrote:
PenGun wrote:If I could get the world to leave me behind I would be very happy. As that won't be happening soon, well I am old, so hopefully not very soon, I must go on.

You are missing the point.

You are welcome to do whatever you want with free software. It's FREE SOFTWARE. I don't know about open sores but hey, you guys call it FOSS. I don't have to like what you do with it but that's fine too.

Linux is what it is, Linus's kernel and a stack of utilities which largely come form the GNU effort. Richard Stallman is GNU for the most part, although many contributed. To have our fine OP call Richard a destroyer of both Linux and it's progress by criticizing, as Destructive Ideology, Richard's objection to Ubuntu just taking your data to do with as it pleases is really stupid.

I'm used to this stupidity and largely ignore it but once in a while I react.


The last point that you make has merit. RMS is doing right by bringing awareness of the privacy issue in play. A privacy issue that Canonical could have easily dealt with if they would simply prompt the user of enabling such feature. What i think RMS does wrong is in the manner that he goes overboard with it like it is the end of the world. But you know what? I just chalk it up to RMS being RMS because that is what he has always done, and i have no reason to believe that he will change.

I would say that thanks to RMS' ideology, we have a few things to be grateful, and that to me doesn't sound destructive. Let's weight things at a grander scale, and you should see that bringing the masses into the fold is beneficial to all users of Free Software. A war of might is not won by who has the moral advantage, but by who manages to crush its opponent with the use of all its tools.


A good time to review the term "Pyrrhic victory":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:15 pm

PenGun wrote:A good time to review the term "Pyrrhic victory":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

That cuts both ways. If Free Software remained 100% true to Stallman's vision, it would've never been adopted by more than a small handful of fanatics. What's the larger battle: ideological purity, or relevance?
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:33 pm

just brew it! wrote:
PenGun wrote:A good time to review the term "Pyrrhic victory":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

That cuts both ways. If Free Software remained 100% true to Stallman's vision, it would've never been adopted by more than a small handful of fanatics. What's the larger battle: ideological purity, or relevance?

Again, who is fighting? What war are you talking about? The only people who care are the people making money from Linux and I don't care if they succeed or fail. I know there is a camp that want's Linux to be widespread and somehow conqueror the desktop and be the next big thing. Not me, I got over that. I'm very happy I don't have to use anything else though.

It's too good for most of you. Don't let me stop you though, fill yer boots, it's all free. You should perhaps thank the FSF for that though.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:49 pm

PenGun,

You fail to rebut my argument that division of labor is beneficial to the overall success of Linux and Free Software. You also fail to give an argument for why Ideological purity over relevance would be beneficial to the Free Software movement. I have brought forth my arguments but all that i hear from you is a seething rage, and moral superiority like we are all unworthy of the kingdom of emacs.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:42 pm

But penguins are Serious Business, sir, and those who do not appreciate the Serious Business-ness must be dealt with. Also, real men use vi. :)
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:47 pm

And corners of buildings.
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:40 pm

PenGun wrote:Again, who is fighting? What war are you talking about? The only people who care are the people making money from Linux

Not even close to true. Stallman certainly seems to believe he is fighting a war, and I'm fairly certain making money isn't his goal.

Whether you think my opinion counts or not, *I* care; and not because the company I work for makes money off of Linux. I get paid whether there's Linux or some other commercial OS under the hood in our product, and regardless of what OS runs on my desktop. In fact, we've even have had some push-back from some potential customers and our (recently) new corporate overlords, who would prefer that we not use Linux for anything. Edit: And yes, we have contributed bug fixes upstream, so you can't accuse us of being "leeches" on the Open Source ecosystem.

If I didn't care, we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.

If making money was the overriding consideration, I wouldn't be running it on my desktop and file server at home. I use it because I like the freedom and flexibility. But -- and here's where I'm probably going to lose you -- in spite of the fact that I am quite comfortable using the CLI, I *also* like having a full GUI desktop... and I'd rather not have to compile it all from source code if possible!

I originally learned to program in FORTRAN, and 8080 assembly language (on a system with 8K of RAM), and to this day still occasionally do "bare metal" development (assembler, even a little FPGA design in VHDL). So I've been there, done that. Am I proud of my skills in these areas? Yeah, sure. But IMO insisting on using user-unfriendly systems "just because you can", and looking down on those who choose not to, is silly.

I'm sorry you are offended that people are doing things which encourage the unwashed masses to defile your beloved, pristine, user-unfriendly *NIX. But not all of us old-timers feel that way; AFAIK I'm not quite your age, but I'm close... probably older than 95% of the other forum members here. My take is, you need to embrace the future, or get steamrollered by it.

PenGun wrote:and I don't care if they succeed or fail.

Then why are we having this debate?

Edit:
NovusBogus wrote:Also, real men use vi. :)

Heh. I think I'm the only person in my office that is comfortable with vi. I don't use it for everyday development work, but for quick edits of configuration files and creating short one-off shell scripts it can't be beat. Every *NIX system has it, it works whether or not you've got a GUI installed (or if your X Windows installation is borked and you need to install a driver via CLI or futz with your xorg.conf file... thanks a lot, ATI...), works well over slow connections, and if you understand regex it is reasonably powerful.

Edit 2: vi is kind of like the cockroach of the text editor world. It has been around almost forever, and I am confident it'll still be there after the apocalypse! :D
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Re: Destructive ideology

Postposted on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:52 pm

PenGun wrote:
morphine wrote:
PenGun wrote:It's not hard to see why Richard is upset. At least make it plain in the front what is happening. Still you can see why a lover of, and serious contributor, to *nix would be somewhat upset by the entire dumbing down process.

You still haven't exactly explained what zeitgeist is doing that is a privacy issue.


I sometimes wonder about reading skills here. I made it quite plain it's a dumbing down of a *nix example.

It may mean nothing to you, but making Ubuntu more like windose is not at all a step in the right direction, in my opinion.


RMS doesn't care if the software is user friendly. He just wants the code under a license recognized by the FSF, preferably GPL3 or AGPL3. Nothing more nothing less.

As for dumbing down, Unix and Unix-like systems. Unix has always been user friendly. There is a steep learning curve associated with the command line, but there is a steep learning curve for every command line due to a low discoverability quotient. Anyway, Unix is supposed to server the user, and it's supposed to be easy to get things done with. There is nowhere in the Unix philosophy that says the system should be hard to understand or use. Here are a couple of links to the Unix philosophy: Wikipedia, FAQs.org.

If you want something unfriendly, I suggest Windows and Powershell.
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