First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 5:27 am

auxy wrote:Crysis 1, which came out in 2007, can actually be much MORE demanding, although it's still a trivial task for any modern gaming PC. Mostly this is the result of the extremely large maps used in the game, and some poor optimization.
\


I'm not someone who thinks Crysis1 is poorly optimized, it's a high res game with volumetric this and that and it requires horsepower to run smoothly IMO.

To op...any of these cards are good.

7950
7970GE
670
680

I went with a 7950 as it has 3gig of ram.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 10:43 am

@Bensam123: Misinterpretations of the build goal aside, I think you're meeting a lot of resistance on the hex-core recommendation simply because there (unfortunately) isn't quantitative evidence to support your claims regarding the system requirements for game streaming. Therefore, we're seeing a common divide between yourself (seemingly very experienced with this sort of thing, but lacking hard data) and others who are trying to use TR metrics (although not pertaining to this exact usage scenario) to give the OP suggestions. Unless readers of this forum have multiple systems (i5, FX-8350, i7, i7-hex) to try streaming on all these systems for themselves (which it doesn't really sound like you've even done...no offense, its just not practial for a "typical" consumer to be able to test on this many different systems) I don't think anybody is going to jump to your side all willy-nilly.

Upon reading all thread posts, (Slingbox option aside) I think it would be best for the OP to consider two alternatives to the LGA 2011 hex-core while heeding Bensam's warnings/suggestions. (A compromise if you will) Either option will save you $300+ over an LGA 2011 build:

1) Build an AMD FX-8350 like Bensam is apparently using. It obviously works for an "enthusiast streamer" so it should be more than enough for a beginner. Keep in mind that Bulldozer architecture has 2 "cores" per module that share resources making AMD's "modules" a counter to Intel's "Hyper-Threading." While AMD's modules are more efficient than hyper-threading, an "8-core" FX-8350 will not perform the same as a truly 8-core CPU or even a hex Intel i7-X, but it's clearly better than 4 physical cores if your workload is demanding it.

2) Build an i7-4770K rig. This gives you the superior per-core performance of Intel CPUs for gaming that many (including myself) have already pointed out. It also includes hyper-threading to handle 8 threads. Again, not the same as a hex i7 (HT to 12 threads), but again it will give you some advantage over an i5 if streaming is as demanding as Bensam says it is.
[Sidenote] Waiting for Haswell to get an i7 with TSX may garner you more performance from HT down the road when(if) TSX implementation adoption increases.

@IngeniousMethod: A $300 mobo is not going to give you any more "streaming capability" than a $100 one. As JAE pointed out, you need to look at the features that each offers and match that to your needs.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 5:13 pm

I have streamed on a i7-920 (my experience with HTing, which is still being recommended despite my testing with it and knowing it makes relatively little difference and may even hinder responsiveness when cores get bogged down), a i5-3570k, and now on a FX8350. I have first hand experience with all of the above. To this end there is no real reason to purchase a i7 system and there really is no reason to recommend one, streaming or not. A i5 sure, just not a i7, unless you're talking about a hex core.

I don't own a hex core system, but I did still run into performance issues with the 3570k and the 8350 and I do know throwing two extra cores on top of it you'd see about a 30-40% improvement in performance. This doesn't just come from perceived benefits of having six extra cores, but you can read about other users experiences with such systems on the OBS and Xsplit forums as well as Teamliquid.

A slingbox can't tie into a running game with a hook, you can't manage scenes on it (for editing and producing), and you can't upload to Twitch or another RTMP streaming service. About the closest thing to this is a capture computer, which I was leaning more towards suggesting the OP make as you can simply tone down all the components to a manageable level in the primary computer and make a midget for the capture PC. At that point you could just build the primary PC like a normal gaming PC and the secondary one would just need a modern quad core and a capture card.


Yes I know this is totally related to people always making recommendations off of data they have available and they simply don't have experience in this area so they go with the next best thing, which was the TR encoding while gaming test. It's not representative of streaming and it very much is deceptive in that manner. That's why I suggested TR look at actual streaming a few different times.

Users can use other resources besides hardware review websites to find information on streaming. Teamliquid, OBS, and the Xsplit forums all have valuable information both on the software aspect of streaming and hardware. Unfortunately streaming is still rather new so there isn't a unified and go to place for common information on streaming. There is no real repository. There are quite a few little snippets of information across the OBS/Xsplit/Teamliquid forums with a lot of informal testing in less then ideal conditions.

All someone really needs to do to say if what I'm saying is remotely correct is run OBS while playing a game like I suggested. :l

JAE, I don't have data to back up my claims, only first hand experience. But I can safely say someone offering advice from subjective first hand experience is more meaningful then someone offering advice off neither first hand experience or data.

Quicksync and hardware encoding has been discussed across streaming forums (The Avermedia Live Gamer HD already does this, but it's a single card, the quality looks like ass, it's expensive, and it's proprietary limited just to Xsplit). It isn't implemented in software for them yet and I don't have control over what software developers decide to spend time on. OBS is actually open source, so if you're capable of making a quicksync style plugin for streaming I would be thrilled to see it as would a lot of people. I have personally suggested such things a bunch of different times as well as OpenCL encoding, it hasn't happened yet. But you don't need to argue the merits of streaming with me or the hardware requirements, there are reasons for a lot of different things concerning it and you're welcome to spend a little bit of time researching yourself to find the answers.

Streaming is still in it's very early stages (for consumers). OBS didn't even exist a year ago. If you have something to contribute, the community would definitely welcome it.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 7:09 pm

I didn't mean that a Slingbox was the exact solution for your particular niche problem. What I meant was that this is an example of an inexpensive off-the-shelf complete device using a modest TI DSP processor that manages very much the same workload (with a different target IP on the internet) as what you want to do with a substantially more expensive CPU and motherboard upgrade and some poorly-optimized software.

However, since you are absolutely convinced that the OP has an unlimited budget and that more expensive CPU cores are the only way to accomplish the all-important streaming task, I will withdraw my suggestions for a gaming-oriented PC with a 2560x1440 monitor and a fast GPU. What the OP clearly needs to do streaming the way that you want him to is a pair of Sandy Bridge-EP processors on a C606 motherboard.

If anyone could be bothered to provide some data, we might actually accomplish something.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 8:06 pm

My one and only forray into Sandy Bridge-E (let alone EP) ended in massive disappointment when I realised that a relatively cheap 2700K at 4.5GHz was often quicker than a 3960X for well under half the price when talking about 3DSMax rendering and Animation encodes using Premiere.
Overclocking a cheap(ish) 95W 2700K, no problem;
Invalidating the warranty and cranking up the voltage on a thousand-buck, 150W processor? Uh.....
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 8:22 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:My one and only forray into Sandy Bridge-E (let alone EP) ended in massive disappointment when I realised that a relatively cheap 2700K at 4.5GHz was often quicker than a 3960X for well under half the price when talking about 3DSMax rendering and Animation encodes using Premiere.
Overclocking a cheap(ish) 95W 2700K, no problem;
Invalidating the warranty and cranking up the voltage on a thousand-buck, 150W processor? Uh.....


But a hex-core CPU and accompanying motherboard would represent a smaller price increase than a separate system for streaming, assuming a device like JAE described above isn't available.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 8:30 pm

Uh guys, if I'm reading the series of tubes correctly the OP backed off on the whole streaming thing once the discussion steered into an argument about whether a thousand dollars of Intel was necessary for it, which would suggest that it's really not that big of a deal to him. Just sayin.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Tue May 07, 2013 10:38 pm

Holy thread derail.

Anyways OP if you are interested in decent peripherals, Filco makes good mechanical keyboards, the Dell 2713HM regularly goes on sale for $600 (8-bit IPS panel 2560x1440 res with fully adjustable stand), as for mice, a bit more of user preference, speakers, another broad range, however I hear good things about the AudioEngine A5+ powered speakers to give your PC more of the new high end feel.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 6:33 pm

I think the discussion isn't just pertinent to the OP, but others that may approach these forums looking for a solution for streaming. What is learned in this thread will also spread to other threads and recommendations will change based on it as quite a few people haven't had experience streaming. Streaming very much presents a different workload from the norm. All of the build advice in here up till myself and possibly Auxy didn't even take into account that he wanted to stream, going so far as to say a $100 slingbox can do what a hex core can.

You have four different options for consumer streaming. Flame media live encoder, Xsplit (paid), FFsplit, and OBS. FMLE is really hard to use, Xsplit is sorta ghetto, really no one uses FFsplit, and OBS is basically the goto.

There isn't anyway to offload to hardware besides Avermedia Live Gamer HD. As I described before Avermedia has a lot of drawbacks and only works with Xsplit. Despite what a good idea it is, there is neither support for Quicksync or OpenCL. I've tried suggesting this for Xsplit, OBS, and FFsplit. Many different people have, but it hasn't taken a priority and as best I can tell that depends a lot on people making codecs (not just people making streaming software as there is separation between the two).

Only reason the OP backed off of streaming was because there is a lot of conflicting information going on here and people are making it seem like too much work (it isn't). JAE thinks a $100 slingbox is comparable to what you need for streaming, I'm saying it's not... I'm here for the same reason everyone else is, to offer sound advice off experience to help build a good system matching all the needs required by the OP.

Streaming is quite a bit different then simply encoding a video in the background. There is a almost direct correlation between scene complexity and encoder CPU usage. Meaning when scenes get more complex, usually when your computer is working the hardest (like being in the middle of a firefight), the encoder also requires more and more CPU usage. So it snowballs. When your computer starts choking it once again snowballs hardcore. How much CPU usage you need also depends completely on the type of scene you're encoding. A game like MOBAs will require less CPU usage and bandwidth then say a FPS, which has constant screen changes and updates. This is actually a workload Vishera and Bulldozer are most suited for as they're heavily multi-threaded and the ability to manage multiple threads fluidly is very desirable.

All of this takes place in real time too, verses encoding in the background in which case the encoder could do whatever it wants and it wouldn't really affect the gaming session. Meaning it could be set for low priority and you'd see little to no effect on the game, for that matter if it has some sort of metering built in it would change things. Encoding in real time is different then just encoding a video in the background (in which case the encode can go faster or slower then the timeframe of what it's actually encoding).

I have went through a few different CPUs in the last six months, which I've talked about off and on on the forums. I originally started with a i7-920. To that end I messed around with HTing on it. From my experience HTing offers increased FPS up till when you start using more then 50% of your processor. When each core ends up at about 110-120% it starts to slow down. FPS remains high, but the games start getting jerky. There seems to be issues with a latency penalty associated with overloading cores. Threads aren't executed fast enough and it results inadvertent slow downs. HTing is definitely helpful in a setting where latency isn't a issue. Both streaming and gaming require the lowest possible latency. I ended streaming at the time with HTing off, but still needed to buy a new processor. Up till that point my i7-920 handled every game flawlessly and I had no plans to upgrade till Haswell or later.

I then purchased a i5-3570k. That definitely improved results, but I still ran into slowdowns. It's pretty hard streaming while playing FPS's, you're looking at about 720p@30fps for good results (to maintain a good experience in game and a smooth stream). None of this is dependent on your video card for the most part or any other component besides your CPU.

I ended up switching to a FX8350 for a couple different reasons. I had my hunches about AMD dealing better with multiple threads and multiple workloads, I had the ability to get rid of my old-new system, a 8350 doesn't have much worse performance then a 3570k, and curiosity was really getting to me, that was a couple months ago. While HTing may be seen as the same thing as modules, it's not. AMD definitely has a superior solution when it comes to handling multiple threads and heavy workloads while needing to deliver the threads in a timely manner. As I stated my FPS went down in some heavily single threaded games, but overall the fluidity and smoothness of my gaming experience went up quite a bit switching from the 3570k to the 8350 and I will stand by that. It's why I've tried so much to get TR to do some streaming results.

Remember when I was talking about core parking? This is very relevant to streaming, once again as all parts of streaming (gaming and streaming itself) are dependent on latency. Core parking exasperates jitter and fluidity issues.

I digress, a hex core is essentially a brute force solution to this end. Just throwing raw CPU power at it definitely helps. HTing doesn't make a difference, a 8350 is definitely a more elegant solution. You can't just pretend that streaming wont affect his build at all and I'd even go so far as recommending lower performance components in order to fit the hex core inside his budget.

As I said though, I think it may be a better idea to build two computers in this case. One that is his primary PC for gaming (which would be no different then a normal gaming PC) and another midget that would be used as a capture PC. Since he's buying a capture card anyway, that's most of the cost of the capture PC and then you could get a cheap quad core (like a AMD 640) to fill in for the rest. This would allow him to take it to his friends house or whatever.

Why don't I have a capture PC? Good question.

It's harder to manage scenes on the primary PC on a secondary PC. You only have one type of capture mode. Capture cards are limited to certain resolutions and in the future if I ever stream something different then what is supported, I'll have to buy a different capture card. 60fps support is limited to 720p on 'cheaper' cards. The higher the resolution and FPS the card supports, the more expensive they get. Quality wise capture cards are quite inferior to a bit-bit conversion right inside your PC. In your computer it goes from the raw bits straight to the encode, verses having to be turned into a video signal and then back into bits on the capture PC. I suspect in time there will be lan encoding, in which part of the encoding is done on your main PC and then another PC can do the primary encoding (this doesn't exist yet). I also suspect openCL or quicksync may eventually gain support, but it doesn't have it yet.

Either way, most people who can budget a streaming PC do so as it takes all the burden off your primary PC, that's the one biggest benefit of it. You can definitely tell when you're streaming regardless of throwing more CPU power at the whole process.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 6:44 pm

CaptTomato wrote:
auxy wrote:Crysis 1, which came out in 2007, can actually be much MORE demanding, although it's still a trivial task for any modern gaming PC. Mostly this is the result of the extremely large maps used in the game, and some poor optimization.
\
I'm not someone who thinks Crysis1 is poorly optimized, it's a high res game with volumetric this and that and it requires horsepower to run smoothly IMO.
Crysis 1 wastes a ton of space on areas that there is no reason for the player to visit. This is poor optimization.

"Optimization" doesn't refer solely to the engine's efficiency, after all.

Bensam123 wrote:(crazy long post)
Very informative post! I've been looking to move to a hex-core or perhaps an 8350 myself because of streaming being so CPU-intensive. Even streaming to disk (via a capture utility like FRAPS or OBS piped to x264) is unbelievably CPU-intensive. I set up a two-disk stripe hoping that would help, but upon reflection, a single disk is plenty fast, and it didn't help at all. It may even have made things worse (CPU usage from managing the striping, possibly?).

Still, I'm not really willing to compromise on single-threaded performance. Maybe Steamroller will be the answer I'm looking for, hmmh. I hope Kaveri has L3 cache.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 7:28 pm

Bensam123 wrote:JAE thinks a slingbox is comparable to what you need for streaming, I'm saying it's not...
Capture 1080p stream from PC to HDMI input on the box. Encode on the fly. Stream to the internet on the fly. How is the computational complexity of this task any different, except that the inexpensive stand-alone device is apparently dozens of times more efficient than the equipment that you want the OP to buy?
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 8:24 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Bensam123 wrote:JAE thinks a slingbox is comparable to what you need for streaming, I'm saying it's not...
Capture 1080p stream from PC to HDMI input on the box. Encode on the fly. Stream to the internet on the fly. How is the computational complexity of this task any different, except that the inexpensive stand-alone device is apparently dozens of times more efficient than the equipment that you want the OP to buy?

You think a slingbox can do that?
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 9:19 pm

Bensam123 wrote:JAE thinks a slingbox is comparable to what you need for streaming, I'm saying it's not...
JustAnEngineer wrote:Capture 1080p stream from PC to HDMI input on the box. Encode on the fly. Stream to the internet on the fly. How is the computational complexity of this task any different, except that the inexpensive stand-alone device is apparently dozens of times more efficient than the equipment that you want the OP to buy?
auxy wrote: You think a slingbox can do that?
That is exactly what the device is designed to do.
http://www.slingbox.com/go/slingbox-500
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http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-a ... 84603.html
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 9:43 pm

I have to admit, I'd never try and stream raw 1080p60 to disk or encode using massively inefficient software.

As I mentioned in this thread, a cheap piece of dedicated hardware in the GoPro Hero3-BE can encode 1080p in realtime, whilst running for an hour on the most compact and minimal of battery power sources. I suspect similar silicon resides in a Slingbox/PVR etc.

The whole OMG HEX CORE IS MANDATORY thing is a bit of a joke that applies to the nichiest of nichey niches. The made-in-china GoPro Hero3 laughs at Intel and AMD's mightiest competition ;)
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Wed May 08, 2013 10:35 pm

If any of the software used Quicksync, it wouldn't be necessary- but seeing as games will make good use of four Intel cores, you'd want six if you wanted to do some other intensive task at the same time and not lose gaming performance.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Thu May 09, 2013 2:28 am

I NEVER out of all my posts said a hex core was mandatory, I even pointed out that he could get away and stream with a 3570k or a 8350, that's what I use. I also suggested he could use a capture PC (which I pointed out a few different times I think is a better way to split up his budget).

However, when someone has $2000 to drop on a computer and they're going to get stuck getting bogged down while streaming, I think that's a little bit lackluster. At that point it's time to flip some of the switches and tweak the dials to reassign pricing in a more meaningful manner. If he had a $1200 budget I wouldn't be recommending a hex core.

I think it's great and everything that you guys are suggesting dedicated pieces of hardware that do similar things to streaming, without actually doing it. Find a solution that actually works with streaming software and can upload to Twitch. As I said I don't make the software, I just use it. I would most definitely like to know about a $100 product that magics up a 1080p@60fps stream... or even 720p@30fps completely offloaded off my computer. That would've saved me a lot of money.

Yes AirM.

Anyone who wants to make light of streaming simply download OBS and run preview mode in the background while playing a modern FPS at 1080p. OBS is the lightest and the most efficient out of all the streaming applications. It also has the best quality (something that you lose with capture cards unless you start talking about cards that hover around $1k). It is completely free and open source. I'd also encourage anyone who has experience working with encoders and hardware accelerated encoding to take a look at helping implement that in OBS. Jim has his hands full over there and has spent the last few months just trying to get a lot of capture cards working with it.

Xsplit however has even went so far as to say that implementing Quicksync is a waste of their resources and time. I personally just think that was a cop out so they wouldn't need to do extra work (xsplit sucks like that). It's been suggested quite a few times for OBS (myself being one of them), but hasn't went anywhere. Quicksync implementation doesn't depend mainly on the streaming software as much as it does on the libraries it uses (x264 for instance). From what I've read Quicksync has a few annoying quirks including a pretty poor SDK, inability to tweak settings (it's a black box) and average quality. But when you can essentially offload a 720p stream for free that really isn't anything to look down on. Quicksync and AMD as well as Nvidias alternatives still haven't really taken off in the encoding realm. What TR covered a few years ago is basically all that's happened in that realm. OpenCL is largely limited to simple look ahead in experimental x264 builds.


Auxy you mentioned you have a 144hz monitor, I also mentioned that DXtory has issues with 60hz+ monitors. That could be what's causing your stuttering issues. Have you tried out OBS yet to see if the stuttering still persists?

I can't say about future generations, I can only comment on the current ones and the current state of streaming. It just turned out to work out in favor of AMD in this case. AMD is supposedly switching back to full cores too, so this sorta thing may disappear with the next iteration...


JustAnEngineer wrote:
Bensam123 wrote:JAE thinks a slingbox is comparable to what you need for streaming, I'm saying it's not...
Capture 1080p stream from PC to HDMI input on the box. Encode on the fly. Stream to the internet on the fly. How is the computational complexity of this task any different, except that the inexpensive stand-alone device is apparently dozens of times more efficient than the equipment that you want the OP to buy?


A hex core is $300 more then a i5-3570k. It's a bit more then twice the price, even less then that if you consider he would have to buy a 'slingbox' in addition to a 3570k. It also functions as a computer and can be used in every other part of his daily computer happy life. In this case you aren't just comparing a $550 processor to a slingbox. I guess context is sorta meaningless though when you just want to put something down.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Thu May 09, 2013 5:51 am

Bensam123 wrote:A hex core is $300 more then a i5-3570k.
Considering processor (i7-3930K vs. i5-3570K) + motherboard (P9X79 vs. P8Z77-V LK) + memory combination deals, the difference was just under $500 when I spent the time to price out all of the components earlier in this thread.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Thu May 09, 2013 8:54 am

Yeah, there's no such thing as a budget x79 board - so you're stuck with a premium $250 item that does loads you probably don't want.

With z77 boards there's a good selection of sub-$100 boards that just do the essentials and do them well.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Thu May 09, 2013 3:36 pm

Huh, I didn't know that. I thought it was more like a Boxee.

Anyway, $300 for a fixed-function device like that is absolutely a "no", IMO. $300 will get you most of the way to a hex-core. AGAIN, NEITHER I NOR BENSAM ARE SAYING A HEXCORE IS MANDATORY. It's just a really good idea if he wants to stream a lot.
Chrispy_ wrote:I have to admit, I'd never try and stream raw 1080p60 to disk or encode using massively inefficient software. The whole OMG HEX CORE IS MANDATORY thing is a bit of a joke that applies to the nichiest of nichey niches. The made-in-china GoPro Hero3 laughs at Intel and AMD's mightiest competition ;)
Nobody said it's mandatory. You're putting words in our posts that aren't there; don't you feel at least a little bit guilty about your strawman deception?

Besides, it's not that the software is inefficient, it's just that you don't understand
  • A) the scope of what is being done (the amount of data being moved around), and
  • B) the advantage of using an ASIC to do something, versus doing it in software on a general-purpose CPU
It's a big deal.

Chrispy_ wrote:Yeah, there's no such thing as a budget x79 board - so you're stuck with a premium $250 item that does loads you probably don't want.
You're half right -- I've never seen an X79 board under $100, but they do frequently go under $200. This isn't even a sale price and it's $190. Besides, you don't know that a given user might not enjoy the benefits of a premium motherboard. I've seen a LOT of builds, and it's pretty frequent that I hear "dang, I wish I'd spent a little more on my motherboard to get [feature]."

Bensam123 wrote:Auxy you mentioned you have a 144hz monitor, I also mentioned that DXtory has issues with 60hz+ monitors. That could be what's causing your stuttering issues. Have you tried out OBS yet to see if the stuttering still persists?
Well, I tried OBS once before, but I think my encoding settings may have been too aggressive. I need to try again with --preset superfast to see if it works better.

__________________________________________________

I came into this thread mostly just to talk about streaming and respond to some of the comments made, but since I'm here...

I really have to agree with Bensam that looking at something like an i5-3570K or FX-83xx with a $2000 budget is folly when there's the possibility of heavy CPU-loading work like video encoding. I mean, do the math -- you're looking at $550 for the CPU, $200 for the motherboard, and $450 for an amazing GPU. That puts you at $1200; are you really saying he can't buy the rest of his machine for $800? Please.

Have a look here. $1995 and hex-core, with all the fixin's; aluminum case, GTX680, 80 PLUS Gold PSU with room for SLI later, the works!
Some people might complain about the OCZ SSD, but it's cheap, and you can't deny the performance!

In case someone can't get to PCPartPicker, it's
  • 3930K
  • AsRock X79 Extreme6
  • 4x8GB Patriot DDR3-1600 1.5v CL9
  • 120GB Vertex 3 MAX IOPS
  • Barracuda 2TB 7200RPM
  • MSI GTX 680 2GB
  • Lian-Li PC-7B PLUS II
  • EVGA SuperNOVA 650W
  • VS239H-P 23" IPS monitor
That's right, I even had room for an IPS monitor! I didn't include an extra CPU cooler, but it'd be fairly trivial to move things around and make it work, especially if the OP doesn't need the monitor.

This is a killer build that will do basically anything that anyone wants it to do, short of extremely specific things like bitcoin mining.
Frankly, I'd rather have this, than my current system... anyone wanna trade?

(edit): did some revisions; dropped the monitor since the OP doesn't need it, added another 2TB disk and upgraded the 680 to a 4GB model. $2003, which is a few dollars over the budget, but, yah. Could also drop back to a 2GB 680 (since it doesn't make that much difference most of the time) and get some kind of fancy aftermarket cooler. Could fit an H80i or Seidon 120M in that budget.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 4:47 am

Just LOL :D

I though the fact that I bolded it and didn't actually quote anyone was enough of a clue.

Have you never encountered blatant exaggeration before?
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 6:29 am

Chrispy_ wrote:Have you never encountered blatant exaggeration before?
Exaggeration to the point that it changes the meaning isn't simple exaggeration anymore.

If you were to say "maybe that man should go to jail" and I characterized what you said as "OMG HE HAS TO BE PUT AWAY", it's quite a different meaning, even though it's "only" an exaggeration, right?

You are being very disingenuous.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 7:32 am

Yes, I am being very disingenious aren't I.
The meaning was changed by my exaggeration, too; but in a weird way. I intentionally misconstrued it in such a way that it would be plain wrong to take it literally! Shame on me.

If only there was some word to describe this intentional-disingenuity-by-exaggeration-and-misconstruction-in-such-a-way-that-it-clearly-shouldn't-be-taken-literally. Alas, there isn't - so I'll just have to use all those hyphens. Or bold, perhaps...
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 7:35 am

Is any of this helping the OP or is it proving the GIFT?

Thanks for listening.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 8:00 am

Nah, this thread was derailed a couple of pages back and the OP was scared away by the supposedly insane requirements for streaming. We're all just bickering points that have long-since been irrelevant to the OP :wink:
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 8:09 am

There is a discussion here worth salvaging even if the OP has moved on.

Is there a product like the Slingbox (external or internal) that can do the input capture and encoding without CPU assistance and still has the flexibility of delivering that footage to any streaming service you pick?

I'd note it needs to do real time audio capture as well both of the game audio and microphone voice commentary.

Dollar figure is important for this discussion. So don't forget to attach that to said linked device.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 10:06 am

For this situation (OP has a $2000 budget and is building a new system), Auxy has obviously shown that you can get a very decent hex-core rig that meets the budget set forth by the OP. To that extent, I think the OP has their answer.

Bensam123 wrote:I then purchased a i5-3570k. That definitely improved results, but I still ran into slowdowns. It's pretty hard streaming while playing FPS's, you're looking at about 720p@30fps for good results ... overall the fluidity and smoothness of my gaming experience went up quite a bit switching from the 3570k to the 8350 and I will stand by that.

The topic of "how much is really necessary" seems to depend heavily on your preferred streaming quality. IMO, 720p @ 30fps is perfectly acceptable and I see little reason to go above that. Movies are ~30fps and 720p is nearly as good as 1080p. Furthermore, the higher the quality, the harder it is for viewers to stream it. I would imagine most people are going to watch streams in 480i.

The topic of a dedicated external device (internal will undoubtedly require some system resources) for streaming is a very important one that has a much broader application than this specific thread. This applies to anyone that already has a "decent" computer and is interested in streaming. Who wouldn't want to buy a device for $200 (ie) as opposed to spending ~$700 on a new hex/X79 CPU+mobo.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 3:12 pm

DPete27 wrote:For this situation (OP has a $2000 budget and is building a new system), Auxy has obviously shown that you can get a very decent hex-core rig that meets the budget set forth by the OP. To that extent, I think the OP has their answer.
Ironically, the OP either edited their post since the last time I looked at it, or I just didn't look at it recently, but the machine I proposed is not actually so very different from the one he planned to buy (bought?) anyway. Hehe. Thanks for your support!

DPete27 wrote:IMO, 720p @ 30fps is perfectly acceptable and I see little reason to go above that. Movies are ~30fps and 720p is nearly as good as 1080p. Furthermore, the higher the quality, the harder it is for viewers to stream it. I would imagine most people are going to watch streams in 480i.
Well, in 480p, because streaming in interlaced video would be really weird. And I imagine hard. Hehe. :3c

Really, 1080p is a big deal versus 720p. It's 2.25x the number of pixels. 30fps -> 60fps is a big deal too; you lose a lot of fluidity that way. This is obvious for anyone who has worked in computer graphics! 1080p60 is near-impossible to stream fluidly -- at least for those not on FiOS or Google -- but for my purposes (recording gameplay to disk and then uploading for later viewing), it's almost a requirement. I've put a few videos on YouTube, and the drop to 30fps just murders any sense of smooth motion. I've played with advanced blur filters and frame interpolation and various combinations of the two, but it just looks bad, bad, bad compared to the source video.

DPete27 wrote:The topic of a dedicated external device (internal will undoubtedly require some system resources) for streaming is a very important one that has a much broader application than this specific thread. This applies to anyone that already has a "decent" computer and is interested in streaming. Who wouldn't want to buy a device for $200 (ie) as opposed to spending ~$700 on a new hex/X79 CPU+mobo.
I'm interested, but I'm not convinced of the utility of such a thing. I need to edit the videos, of course, and I need to encode them; I'm not interested in a device that isn't going to help me with both of those.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 6:56 pm

As I said a couple posts ago, this topic is still very prudent to future stream builds. There will be more of these on the forums and discussions like these need to take place so people don't go offering inadequate build advice to people who are looking to not only game, but stream while doing so. As it stands everyone except Auxy is highly undervaluing a processor in a computer meant for streaming.

Not only does the computer need to be capable of streaming, but it has to offer the player a fluid experience, not just one based around the capability of streaming. My i7-920 could stream, but that pulled me down to 20-60fps with a lot of FPS spikes while playing Blacklight Retribution at 720p back in Oct.

You're right 'just' being able to stream 720p is more then adequate for getting into the streaming scene, but you're talking about someone with a $2000 budget, not $1200. If his budget was much smaller I'd be suggesting a FX8350. But we're looking to build something that is not only adequate now, but is also made for the future. A $2k budget allows for a lot of future proofing. It isn't just slap the biggest video card on it and pretend it's good. 720p@60fps is actually becoming quite popular as well. While it isn't straight up nearly as demanding as 1080p@30, it's about 1.5x more demanding then normal 720p. As you can imagine 1080p@60fps is really demanding. Playing LoL it eats about 40-60% of my FX8350. It's even worse in FPS's.

60fps streams really stand out because of fluidity. My latest LoL streams on my Twitch channel were done at 720p@60. You'll also find that doing the bare minimum to stream does not help you stand out. It is actually really hard to attract an audience when you stream unless you start engaging in attention getting behavior. While this doesn't directly relate to hardware building, if you're just getting by it's not going to be conducive to being successful at streaming. You may stream at 720p for FPS's, but if you're playing something like Simcity (which I was doing) you may want to stream at 1080p because it's a pretty game and you spend most of your time looking at how pretty the game is. You need to have options available.

**As it stands though and I think is being looked over, I also suggested that two computers be built in this case with this budget. One designed as a primary PC solely for gaming (no different then a normal gaming PC) and a capture PC. This takes all the load off the users primary PC and would give the user another second PC, since a lot of the components in the primary one are simply over priced.**

DPete27 wrote:The topic of "how much is really necessary" seems to depend heavily on your preferred streaming quality. IMO, 720p @ 30fps is perfectly acceptable and I see little reason to go above that. Movies are ~30fps and 720p is nearly as good as 1080p. Furthermore, the higher the quality, the harder it is for viewers to stream it. I would imagine most people are going to watch streams in 480i.


No one watches streams in 480i or is capable of streaming interlaced (at least for consumers). As was talked about earlier in the thread, you can get tablets that stream 1080p fluidly on the receiving end. The workload for the computer on the end isn't the big set back. The main consideration for streaming is bandwidth limitations. What sort of a connection do most of your viewers have? To that extent you can actually stream with a higher CPU preset to compress your stream more and reduce bandwidth usage, but processor usage climbs almost exponentially with smaller and smaller returns with each gain. This directly relates to x264 encoding. The normal preset almost everyone uses for x264 streaming is "Veryfast".

720p is the typical resolution used by most streamers and people watching streams. This was noted on Twitch somewhere or on forums, either way it's pretty common knowledge. I stream at a bit rate of 3100 and 720p for instance. Unless you're partnered with Twitch they simply rebroadcast what you broadcast to them. If you're partnered they transcode your stream so you can get multiple resolutions and in that case it's best to stream at your highest possible resolution.


If there are cheaper alternatives for streaming, I'm all ears. I also stream and I do look for advice when it's helpful. So far no one who is downplaying the value of a processor have offered an alternative. About the closest thing to a dedicated device like this is a capture computer (which I've talked about a few times) or a Avermedia Live Gamer HD (which I've also talked about and has a lot of set backs that don't make it worth buying). I've explored pretty much every option before I dumped $450 into upgrades. My computer was perfectly capable of playing games before I did this and it was so bad I needed to do it as I couldn't handle the performance impact of streaming while playing games before it.

A lot of people are simply skimming my posts instead of actually reading them and thinking about the topics I'm bringing up. If you've never streamed before and you plan to or you want to offer advice, it's probably not a bad idea to spend five minutes reading my posts instead of simply offering a easy rebuttal and call it good. Most of the issues that are being discussed I already addressed. As I said I didn't suggest a $550 processor because I want him to spend a half a grand and it looks cool, there is a legitimate use for two extra cores and this is one of the scenarios for them.

Spend a little bit of time with OBS while playing games and you'll get a feel of what streaming entails. Once again you don't need to actually stream in order to see the performance hits, just click 'preview'. Bonus points if you run resource monitor in the background and monitor CPU usage of OBS.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Fri May 10, 2013 9:52 pm

AVerMedia C985 Live Gamer HD 1080p Capture Card - $179.99

Positive feedback on the C985

Negative feedback

  1. XSplit preferred (looks like OBS can work with it though)
  2. Limited to 720p60 or 1080p30
  3. Takes RGB input and converts it to YUV422 output
  4. Limits refresh rate to 60hz on systems with 120hz monitors

Looks like this does the job though so long as you can live with those limitations.
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Re: First Time Builder-Requesting Assistance

Postposted on Sat May 11, 2013 7:24 am

The Live Gamer HD has notably poor quality, putting that aside the hardware offloading only works with Xsplit. If you use it with OBS, the hardware encoding functionality wont work and it'll just function as a capture card. If you use it with Xsplit, Xsplit is a rather heavier program, using about 50% more resources then OBS. So while the encoding process would be reduced to about 5% or so with the offloading, Xsplit itself uses a lot of resources. That's why a lot of people are abandoning Xsplit all together. It's a resource hog.

You can look at the resources Xsplit uses by running it and monitor CPU usage of Xsplit.exe and also look for vmwriter if I remember right, which is the name of the encoding process. OBS combines the encoding process with it's running process. Overall Xsplit uses about double the resources of OBS, so you aren't really gaining anything even if you offload the encoding process to the card using Xsplit.

You can do 120hz monitors, you just have to clone your monitors instead of using a splitter and run one of the clones at 60hz.
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