TN LCD apologists thread

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TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:04 pm

This is 2013. Do not waste your money on any nasty TN LCD monitors. There are plenty of affordable IPS LCD monitors available.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:17 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:This is 2013. Do not waste your money on any nasty TN LCD monitors. There are plenty of affordable IPS LCD monitors available.
Sorry JAE, I respect your opinion, but it's >60Hz or bust for my gaming! (⌒▽⌒)
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 6:02 pm

If you want to game on a 120 Hz plasma monitor, that's you're choice. They're big, heavy, power-hungry and short-lived, but the image quality of plasma displays is excellent while they last. I believe that TN LCD monitors are an obsolete technology that deserves to die now that superior IPS LCD technology is just as affordable.

I will caution you to re-read the original post in this thread before you suggest any more TN LCD monitors for our Australian friend. This is not a system for a professional twitch gamer.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 6:34 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:If you want to game on a 120 Hz plasma monitor, that's you're choice. They're big, heavy, power-hungry and short-lived, but the image quality of plasma displays is excellent while they last. I believe that TN LCD monitors are an obsolete technology that deserves to die now that superior IPS LCD technology is just as affordable.

I will caution you to re-read the original post in this thread before you suggest any more TN LCD monitors for our Australian friend.

Plasma monitors? :o Not sure why you mention them...

As for original post - I highly doubt that overcompressed Flash p0rn videos from free websites would look significantly better on an IPS monitor :wink: I mean just try going to... well, Google and search for "free shemale" and click on top link or something :wink: And playing CS might be more beneficial on 120 Hz TN monitor with a low input lag and high response rate since there's not much beautiful scenery in that game to marvel at and it's an FPS multiplayer game... Not much use for "wide viewing angles" either, especially for watching p0rn (in case if someone else will accidentally walk in the same room) :wink:
Last edited by JohnC on Sun May 26, 2013 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 6:56 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:I will caution you to re-read the original post in this thread before you suggest any more TN LCD monitors for our Australian friend.
Plasma displays? Come on, you know what I meant. And the OP? He didn't say anything about IPS or anything...(・_・;)

The monitor he picked is something he chose presumably because it's the "official monitor for MLG" (for console games, though) -- if he wants a good monitor for gaming for his cousin, either an IPS+LED (for picture quality) or 120hz TN+LED (for image response) would be the best options.

Saying that IPS "obsoletes" TN panels is sort of ... (;´・`)>
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Mon May 27, 2013 6:11 pm

LOL Auxy, you're off on your 120Hz rant again - this is an APU or IGP system where anything more than about 30FPS at medium details is optimistic. If 60FPS is unlikely in current games, especially at the 1080p resolution the OP was looking at, then a 120Hz screen seems like an inappropriate and unwise recommendation.

The magic in 120Hz displays is not the response time (it only requires 8ms to get 120Hz), but complex overdrive; A 5ms G2G IPS is more than capable of being driven at 120Hz, and that'd be great if it was readily available and affordable, but right now there's just no demand for it and very limited choice (almost no choice at all, in fact).

I also have to agree with JAE, TN is a nasty, inferior product that is definitely being obsoleted by IPS and PLS, for good reason; It stil exists only because it's cheap and some people want "screen" as a checkbox feature no matter how horrible - which is a shame when there are better panels than TN for fractionally more money.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Tue May 28, 2013 3:15 am

Chrispy_ wrote:I also have to agree with JAE, TN is a nasty, inferior product that is definitely being obsoleted by IPS and PLS, for good reason; It stil exists only because it's cheap and some people want "screen" as a checkbox feature no matter how horrible - which is a shame when there are better panels than TN for fractionally more money.


Couldn't agree more, TN is a complete waste of time. I can't believe i use to argue with you guys 1 year back before shifting to Panasonic TH-L42DT50D.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Thu May 30, 2013 12:48 pm

Jigar wrote:Couldn't agree more, TN is a complete waste of time. I can't believe i use to argue with you guys 1 year back before shifting to Panasonic TH-L42DT50D.


+1.

I have tried running my QH720's at 100Hz, one will do it, one seems to flip out at about 88Hz (different board revisions or firmware, I guess).

I'm running both at 85Hz and I know it's not exactly 120Hz or 144Hz like the Catleaps, but I'm still pleased with the improvement because it means that with Vsync on, when a game drops below 85fps, it runs at 42.5fps for a bit, which is a massive improvement to fluidity (much better illusion of motion) over 30fps when vsync'ed at 60Hz.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Thu May 30, 2013 2:47 pm

Jigar wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:I also have to agree with JAE, TN is a nasty, inferior product that is definitely being obsoleted by IPS and PLS, for good reason; It stil exists only because it's cheap and some people want "screen" as a checkbox feature no matter how horrible - which is a shame when there are better panels than TN for fractionally more money.


Couldn't agree more, TN is a complete waste of time. I can't believe i use to argue with you guys 1 year back before shifting to Panasonic TH-L42DT50D.

To be clear and not to completely irritate some people, an entry level monitor should be (roughly):

1080p
60Hz
23"
IPS
$160 (USD)

Spending less than that will compromize your experience, and $160 is quite affordable. If you want other features, like 3D support, 120 Hz, or greater than 1080p, we can have a conversation about TN displays, but there's really no need to spend less money and get poorer quality.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Fri May 31, 2013 6:07 am

superjawes wrote:
Jigar wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:I also have to agree with JAE, TN is a nasty, inferior product that is definitely being obsoleted by IPS and PLS, for good reason; It stil exists only because it's cheap and some people want "screen" as a checkbox feature no matter how horrible - which is a shame when there are better panels than TN for fractionally more money.


Couldn't agree more, TN is a complete waste of time. I can't believe i use to argue with you guys 1 year back before shifting to Panasonic TH-L42DT50D.

To be clear and not to completely irritate some people, an entry level monitor should be (roughly):

1080p
60Hz
23"
IPS
$160 (USD)

Spending less than that will compromize your experience, and $160 is quite affordable. If you want other features, like 3D support, 120 Hz, or greater than 1080p, we can have a conversation about TN displays, but there's really no need to spend less money and get poorer quality.


Only 21.5" but very relevant to this thread is DerFunk's post here:
http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=88169
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Fri May 31, 2013 7:20 am

Chrispy_ wrote:Only 21.5" but very relevant to this thread is DerFunk's post here:
http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=88169

Okay, with the promo, that actually is a good deal for a cheaper monitor, and might work well for a system like this, too.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:15 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:LOL Auxy, you're off on your 120Hz rant again - this is an APU or IGP system where anything more than about 30FPS at medium details is optimistic. If 60FPS is unlikely in current games, especially at the 1080p resolution the OP was looking at, then a 120Hz screen seems like an inappropriate and unwise recommendation.
If you read my earlier posts, I make it fairly clear I was recommending such a display irrespective of the proposed system, and even somewaht in satire of the OP's choice of an "MLG" display... well, it's clear to me anyway. ┐(´ー`)┌
Chrispy_ wrote:The magic in 120Hz displays is not the response time (it only requires 8ms to get 120Hz), but complex overdrive; A 5ms G2G IPS is more than capable of being driven at 120Hz, and that'd be great if it was readily available and affordable, but right now there's just no demand for it and very limited choice (almost no choice at all, in fact).
I don't know why you're telling me this as if I don't know it. I didn't say anything about panel response time, and I already have a robust understanding of the technologies and concepts involved. ( ̄д ̄;)
Chrispy_ wrote:I also have to agree with JAE, TN is a nasty, inferior product that is definitely being obsoleted by IPS and PLS, for good reason; It stil exists only because it's cheap and some people want "screen" as a checkbox feature no matter how horrible - which is a shame when there are better panels than TN for fractionally more money.
Jigar wrote:Couldn't agree more, TN is a complete waste of time. I can't believe i use to argue with you guys 1 year back before shifting to Panasonic TH-L42DT50D.
Chrispy_ wrote:+1.
I'm glad you have your opinion and I'm happy you're eager to have your little elitist circle-jerk nodding at yourselves as if you've said something meaningful; the facts remain:
  • there are no mass-market IPS displays that are factory >60Hz
  • 120hz refresh with sub-8ms BTB and preferably lightboost is uncontested for fast action gaming
  • Most users cannot tell the difference between the reasonably priced eIPS displays and a good TN panel besides viewing angles (and cheap backlighting can even ruin that advantage somewhat)
So saying TN panels "only exist because they are cheap and some people don't care about the quality of their screen" is false and misleading.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:28 pm

Both sides of this misguided TN-IPS religious war are wrong, it is surely obvious to all clear thinking individuals that the superior choice is CRT. And it needs to be 5:4 aspect ratio. :lol:
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:36 pm

NovusBogus wrote:Both sides of this misguided TN-IPS religious war are wrong, it is surely obvious to all clear thinking individuals that the superior choice is CRT. And it needs to be 5:4 aspect ratio. :lol:



I laughed out loud after reading this after going through the whole IPS vs TN debate. :D
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:33 am

TN LCD discussion split from original low-budget PC build thread.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=88122

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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:40 am

NovusBogus wrote:Both sides of this misguided TN-IPS religious war are wrong, it is surely obvious to all clear thinking individuals that the superior choice is CRT. And it needs to be 5:4 aspect ratio. :lol:

CRT? Bah. Bring back the blinking LEDs of the Altair 8800, I say, for the purest of pure interfaces to the system!
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:27 am

I like those new IPS LG 2560-1080 29 inch superwide monitors.....it gives you a wee bit more peripheral vision and 5ms is not that bad for a response time. If i was into productivity i could see how two monitors would be better then one wide monitor. But for gaming Ill take the 2560/1080 anyday....plus you can get some productivity done on the lg panel also ,you will just be resizing your windows a wee bit more.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:37 am

NovusBogus wrote:Both sides of this misguided TN-IPS religious war are wrong, it is surely obvious to all clear thinking individuals that the superior choice is CRT. And it needs to be 5:4 aspect ratio. :lol:


You're joking, but it's true. CRTs are still the better technology, or course they were also at the peak of their development, and 5:4 is one of the nicest ratios for GUIs. It's almost square, but just a little wider.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:09 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:This is 2013. Do not waste your money on any nasty TN LCD monitors. There are plenty of affordable IPS LCD monitors available.


Excellent post, bang on the money, I like your style.
I look forward to the day we're posting the same thing regarding LED / IPS / etc.
OLED or bust.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:33 am

sjl wrote:CRT? Bah. Bring back the blinking LEDs of the Altair 8800, I say, for the purest of pure interfaces to the system!

Nahh, the front panel on the IMSAI 8080 was better. Spiffy plexiglass faceplate, and the large paddle-style switches were more ergonomic (an important feature when you had to toggle in your bootloader by hand). ;-)
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:52 am

AbRASiON wrote:OLED or bust.


Aww yeah, If I could have my AMOLED phone display scaled up by a factor of six in each direction I would have a 26", colour-rich, fast 600Hz+, 4800x2888 display with perfect 180 degree viewing angles that could display true blacks and therefore an almost infinite contrast ratio without any dynamic contrast BS.

Given that iSupli estimated the panel cost of my phone to be $64 and that cost scales exponentially with size, it's unlikely to be affordable at the moment; Even with linear cost scaling the panel alone would cost $2300 :(
I'd still take a 1080p version in a heartbeat if it was easier and cheaper to produce though.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:35 am

I may be in the minority here, but I still hold onto a CRT display, a 19" Samsung 955DF that I bought over a decade ago. I think I spent over $500 on it as well.

It is just occupying space on my parts shelf, awaiting a day when what was old will now be considered in vogue again, sorta like bell bottoms and acid washed jeans.

No wait, those were bad examples .. ehhhh, maybe it's time I toss that thing after all.

I'm still thoroughly enjoying my Soyo Topaz 24" S-PVA panel. Such a great display that I only paid $270 for.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:14 am

I don't understand the whole viewing angle thing. But then I only use my rig for gaming. A 23" monitor is a little small to be looking at something across the room. For me, I play only FPS games so response time is very critical.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:56 pm

Pville_Piper wrote:I don't understand the whole viewing angle thing. But then I only use my rig for gaming.


I used to think like that - my attitude was that I only cared about my own experience and not people standing left/above/right of me.
However, when a TN screen reports VERTICAL viewing angles of 160 degrees, that's a rather large lie. Actually a TN screen looks more like this and that completely sucks.

When you get a larger TN screen, say 24" or above, the viewing angle is not always perpendicular - If the top of the screen is perpendicular to your eyes and you are sitting a couple of feet from the screen, the bottom of the screen will be around 30 degrees below your eyes. If you aim the middle of the screen at your eyes you're still experiencing a 15 degree shift up and down from the centre. Certainly, TN quality varies wildly but in a lot of TN screens the "acceptable" viewing angle window is less than 30 degrees - meaning that even sitting as square-on to the screen as possible, colours in part of the image (at the top) will start to darken and even invert, whilst colours in the bottom of the image are already washing out, overbright, and way down on contrast.

For me, it really totally ruined any dark, moody, atmospheric games - hell, it even annoyed me in bright and colourful games because they all display dark scenes at some point.

--

When I wanted a 27" 120Hz display, I was so annoyed with TN vertical viewing angles causing inverted colours that I went to a few stores and picked the one that inverted least. Even then I spent a whole month deciding whether to return it under the 30-day no-quibble return policy because no matter how awesome 120Hz was, I wasn't sure it was worth the hideous image quality issues; With a 27" screen, the vertical viewing angle between the top of the screen, my eyes and the bottom of the screen was even bigger than before!

After about six months I gave up on TN; Even though I was a true 120Hz fan, even though I didn't care about the 6-bit panel limitation and Even though the reduced colour gamut and less vibrant image didn't bother me, the colour inversion did. Games just looked too bad to enjoy, and I would have considered myself one of the most die-hard TN fans I know, being the last of my peers to let go of their CRT because LCD's were smeary and "only 60Hz".

--

It turns out that TN is generally getting slated all over the web. I have never seen a TN review anywhere that didn't at least mention the poor viewing angles and colour reproduction issues - and even those 120Hz panels that did get glowing reviews always mention the caveats.

Now, we know they *can* make 120Hz PLS and IPS panels because they've been doing that for 3D HDTV's for a while now; The main quesiton is "why *aren't* they selling this technology in the PC monitor market?"

My guess is that it all comes down to profit, and the 120Hz gaming market is way, way, waaaaay too niche and unprofitable for anything other than HUGE markups. Charging premium IPS prices for a nastly cheap TN panel is about the only way it can work from an economics standpoint in such a tiny market segment. (That's just my own theory, but I beg anyone to offer one that's more plausible).
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:28 pm

Actually those 120hz TVs are actually 60hz.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:01 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Now, we know they *can* make 120Hz PLS and IPS panels because they've been doing that for 3D HDTV's for a while now; The main quesiton is "why *aren't* they selling this technology in the PC monitor market?"

Why stop there - LG is already advertising 480 hz "magical" refresh rate for their IPS TV's - let's bring that on PC monitors! :wink:
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:16 pm

I don't understand the whole fuss with TN and IPS panels. This isn't back in 2001-2003 where the market was flood with el cheapo TNs that had terrible color saturation, viewing angles, ghosting etc. TN panels have improved from then. Properly calibrated units are almost as good any IPS panel. Likewise, IPS are just about as fast as TN. You need specialized tools and tests to notice any difference.

Proper screen calibration, source material, room lighting make a far greater impact on color accuracy then anything else. People are just too lazy to properly calibrate their screens. A miscalibrated display looks like crap no matter what technology it uses. I remember back when most of the world where on monochrome displays and you only had three choices: white, amber and green.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:00 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Pville_Piper wrote:I don't understand the whole viewing angle thing. But then I only use my rig for gaming.


I used to think like that - my attitude was that I only cared about my own experience and not people standing left/above/right of me.
However, when a TN screen reports VERTICAL viewing angles of 160 degrees, that's a rather large lie. Actually a TN screen looks more like this and that completely sucks.

When you get a larger TN screen, say 24" or above, the viewing angle is not always perpendicular - If the top of the screen is perpendicular to your eyes and you are sitting a couple of feet from the screen, the bottom of the screen will be around 30 degrees below your eyes. If you aim the middle of the screen at your eyes you're still experiencing a 15 degree shift up and down from the centre. Certainly, TN quality varies wildly but in a lot of TN screens the "acceptable" viewing angle window is less than 30 degrees - meaning that even sitting as square-on to the screen as possible, colours in part of the image (at the top) will start to darken and even invert, whilst colours in the bottom of the image are already washing out, overbright, and way down on contrast.

For me, it really totally ruined any dark, moody, atmospheric games - hell, it even annoyed me in bright and colourful games because they all display dark scenes at some point.

--

When I wanted a 27" 120Hz display, I was so annoyed with TN vertical viewing angles causing inverted colours that I went to a few stores and picked the one that inverted least. Even then I spent a whole month deciding whether to return it under the 30-day no-quibble return policy because no matter how awesome 120Hz was, I wasn't sure it was worth the hideous image quality issues; With a 27" screen, the vertical viewing angle between the top of the screen, my eyes and the bottom of the screen was even bigger than before!

After about six months I gave up on TN; Even though I was a true 120Hz fan, even though I didn't care about the 6-bit panel limitation and Even though the reduced colour gamut and less vibrant image didn't bother me, the colour inversion did. Games just looked too bad to enjoy, and I would have considered myself one of the most die-hard TN fans I know, being the last of my peers to let go of their CRT because LCD's were smeary and "only 60Hz".

--

It turns out that TN is generally getting slated all over the web. I have never seen a TN review anywhere that didn't at least mention the poor viewing angles and colour reproduction issues - and even those 120Hz panels that did get glowing reviews always mention the caveats.

Now, we know they *can* make 120Hz PLS and IPS panels because they've been doing that for 3D HDTV's for a while now; The main quesiton is "why *aren't* they selling this technology in the PC monitor market?"

My guess is that it all comes down to profit, and the 120Hz gaming market is way, way, waaaaay too niche and unprofitable for anything other than HUGE markups. Charging premium IPS prices for a nastly cheap TN panel is about the only way it can work from an economics standpoint in such a tiny market segment. (That's just my own theory, but I beg anyone to offer one that's more plausible).


Good lord, you go to great lengths to complain about non-issues! I went out and bought a cheap monitor stand for about $30 and it puts the monitor up at eye level and allows me adjust the screen in closer or further away, swivel, all that good stuff, so I have no issues with the viewing angle. As for people standing behind me? Wow, really?
You have a point about color reproduction but it's not that bad.
Last edited by Pville_Piper on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pville_Piper
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:04 pm

On a serious note, when I was monitor shopping I looked at TN and IPS displays side by side and couldn't tell much of a difference at the viewing angles I would need. I ultimately went with an eIPS display and I do like it, but I don't think I would have been disappointed by a TN panel had I gone that route instead.

Visual quality is subjective so I would definitely recommend anyone not convinced by either side to go look at some actual displays and decide for themselves.
NovusBogus
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:40 pm

NovusBogus wrote:Visual quality is subjective so I would definitely recommend anyone not convinced by either side to go look at some actual displays and decide for themselves.

Naw, man - there is only one right subjective opinion, everybody else with different subjective preferences/priorities are wrong :wink:
(/me hugs my properly calibrated BenQ XL2420t)

Kinda off-topic, but this instantly reminds me of BMW circlejerk in forums like bimmerpost and bimmerfest, especially when it comes to discussing the M3 model versus the competitor's models like C63 :wink: Pretty amusing to read armchair experts like these, especially the ones who prefer to throw spreadsheets with numbers at each other instead of the first-hand experience with specific models or those who overfixate on a single quantity like "...but, but, it corners better!" :lol:
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