Help with CPU choice

Discussion of all forms of processors, from AMD to Intel to VIA.

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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:43 pm

Your so quick to point out why AMD does not offer good value, but it wins according to tests done by Tek Syndicate.These guys use Intel at home and at work, but let results speak for themselves, unlike the bias people commenting on this thread. It has better value than credit is given.Since you can disregard any valid point I made concerning gaming or multitasking, which prove otherwise, Lets look at the value in Intel.

What kind of value is Intel giving there enthusiast market. Buy a new motherboard and cpu for better instruction set, with a minimal increase in performance compared to IB. Haswell was not made for the desktop market, but that is the only choice atm, unless you downgrade to IB, which still runs hot. They know most people have a dedicated video card, and having vrm on the cpu, and integrated video adds to the heat.Not to mention the gap / tim issue, that started with IB.Thanks Intel. Now I can take the chance to delid my cpu, so I can overclock at reasonable temps.There really looking out for there loyal customers.Sounds like alot of great selling points. Maybe some fanboys can explain all those benefits.

Refer all comments to the points I made above.Its going to be alot tougher to explain Intel sticking it in the backside, to there enthusiast market. I'm sure you'll find a way to put a positive spin on getting screwed.There's some golden cpu's out there.Intel only cherry picked a few engineering samples to base there initial reviews on.There are a few retail cpu's that will follow suite.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:16 pm

silentvoices wrote:... but let results speak for themselves

Did you bother reading TR's review at all? You even got linked the value graphs on the last page in the thread. There's no opinion there, just fact. I mean, if you have to go AMD for one reason or other, by all means, but for 99% of people, in the current generation of desktop (and most mobile) CPUs, Intel is the best choice.

Intel only cherry picked a few engineering samples to base there initial reviews on.There are a few retail cpu's that will follow suite.

Really? :roll:
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:18 pm

silentvoices wrote:For years, stupid PC hardware sites have maintained that CPUs have little impact on gaming performance [...] but the FPS metric doesn't tell the whole story. Examining individual frame latencies better exposes the brief moments of stuttering that can disrupt otherwise smooth gameplay.

This was looking great...

The majority of games are going to be limited by your GPU.

... until you contradicted yourself.

And by the way, I'm also from Europe. Do you want me to compare prices from the places I usually shop CPUs from? I'll be glad to do it.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:23 pm

I have re-read the (modified) original post and there does not seem to be any real inquiry asking for help in picking a CPU. Unless we have a specific set of use cases that we can debate on which CPU is better, please stop the flamewars or else the lock hammer will be dropped.

So what is the topic here? Picking FX-8xxx or FX-6xxx or FX-4xxx? FX vs A series? What is the use case, games, Office apps, Photoshop, or what?

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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:36 pm

Flying Fox wrote:I have re-read the (modified) original post and there does not seem to be any real inquiry asking for help in picking a CPU. Unless we have a specific set of use cases that we can debate on which CPU is better, please stop the flamewars or else the lock hammer will be dropped.

So what is the topic here? Picking FX-8xxx or FX-6xxx or FX-4xxx? FX vs A series? What is the use case, games, Office apps, Photoshop, or what?

/mod


I saw the thread topic "Help with CPU choice", OP clearly emphasising "I am a gamer" and then getting massively defensive about AMD gaming performance despite untold links to hard evidence and benchmarks.
Personally I think this thread has run it's course, it's turning into a fine example of how to troll a forum.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:33 pm

morphine wrote:
silentvoices wrote:... but let results speak for themselves

Did you bother reading TR's review at all? You even got linked the value graphs on the last page in the thread. There's no opinion there, just fact. I mean, if you have to go AMD for one reason or other, by all means, but for 99% of people, in the current generation of desktop (and most mobile) CPUs, Intel is the best choice.

Intel only cherry picked a few engineering samples to base there initial reviews on.There are a few retail cpu's that will follow suite.

Really? :roll:


Here is what I said.

What kind of value is Intel giving there enthusiast market. Buy a new motherboard and cpu for better instruction set, with a minimal increase in performance compared to IB. Haswell was not made for the desktop market, but that is the only choice atm, unless you downgrade to IB, which still runs hot. They know most people have a dedicated video card, and having vrm on the cpu, and integrated video adds to the heat.Not to mention the gap / tim issue, that started with IB.Thanks Intel. Now I can take the chance to delid my cpu, so I can overclock at reasonable temps.There really looking out for there loyal customers.Sounds like alot of great selling points. Maybe some fanboys can explain all those benefits.

I agree.Its run its course.Funny how you conveniently avoid the truth when Haswell and value are brought up in the same sentence.Enjoy your new choice!

Yes. I looked at those results.BASE CLOCKS.I mentioned that several times.Comments were dismissed. Did anyone one of you fanboys look at Tek Syndicate review on real world results.NO. Again, comments were avoided.Look back in the previous posts.I addressed alot of points concerning gaming. Anything that might remotely challenge your views are not discussed, and dismissed.On the the last point. Haswell and value.Dismissed again.Why ? Because Intel continues to screw over enthusiasts in the 4 gen .
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:20 pm

Son, you be trollin'.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:24 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote:Son, you be trollin'.


Really. No response to facts. None! Hard to argue the truth.

Done! out...
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Help with CPU choice part 2

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:22 pm

Help with CPU choice part 2 / Motherboard, cooler, and cpu needed.

First and for most, I apologize to JustAnEngineer, Morphine, Chrispy, and Prestige Worldwide or anyone else I offend.This is hard for me to bite the bullet, but I was wrong.I have been looking at benchmarks from alot of different sites, and found out something I never considered.The 8350 has to be overclocked really high just to compete with Intel at STOCK speeds.Throw in the frame latencies with AMD, and the value goes way down for gaming.Even worse the power consumption on those higher clocks will make it run very hot.A Haswell with good cooling and a mild overclock will make a great gaming cpu.

Did I just eat all my own words for my previous rant. YES !

Will just the basic i5 do the job ? Gaming only. Also a higher end motherboard, and cooler for Hasewell. I have used the 212 Evo for many builds, but maybe I should get something that assures better cooling. Water cooling is an option, but can get expensive. A custom loop seems the best route vs AIO, but air is fine.I'm looking at 4g overclock.That should give it plenty of power for games, and a good air cooler should work well on that clock.

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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:58 am

Glad to see you saw reason, and I'm glad to see someone with the guts to admit he/she was wrong :) Here's a kicker: it was TR's own Scott Wasson that put frame latency testing in the map, so you want to watch out for his in-depth reviews or whatever new GPU/CPUs that come around.

Anyway, for motherboards, I'm personally a fan of Asus and Gigabyte boards. Don't get the cheapest you can find. I usually go for the $130-ish range boards, as they provide 4 DIMM slots and decent overclocking options.

The CPU: i5 4670K or i7 4770K if you can afford it. I think these are the best bang for the buck, all things considered.

Cooler: I'm partial to Scythe coolers such as the Mugen 4. Noctua HSFs are really good but a little more expensive.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:58 am

Yeah, there's plenty of misinformation on the web. The Tek Syndicate review is incredibly simple and highlights the terrible FPS of Intel quad cores when you absolutely strangle them with too many threads. In this case, more actual cores wins, regardless of whether it's AMD or Intel.

For gaming it comes down to whether you want hyperthreading. At the moment, four threads is enough and the i5's are just as fast as the i7's. With the next gen consoles running on 8 cores, I think a 4770K will be more sensible. All you have to do is look at the difference between a Pentium G2130 (3.2GHz 2C/2T) and an i3-3210 (3.2GHz 2C/4T) and for a few select games that use 3 or more threads, the i3 performs much better. I think more games will use more threads going forwards, so right now I'd recommend an i7 over an i5.

It is true that you can't usually overclock an i7 as easily or as high as an i5 - but I think your 4GHz goals are easily acheivable with a 4770K on a half-decent air cooler; The Coolermaster Hyper 212 Plus, or EVO is a good value air-cooler, I'm also fond of Noctua products, though they're quite expensive.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:34 am

For my purpose an i5 should get the job done.I really wanted to make amends. Even though I listed the Azza Genesis 9000. I still have that in the cart on Amazon I have the rest of those parts.I was going to use that case for water cooling, but a good air cooler wins out over a AIO water loop.Here is a list of some coolers with some testing done.Disappointing not to see Noctua NH-D14 and a in the mix.I never owned that cooler, but would have been nice to see results.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bes ... 54-24.html

Just one Question.

The motherboard. How much difference is there between a 140 dollar board vs 200 dollar board for Intel ? I'm assuming for starters, SLI / Crossfire options.The power requirements are much different for FX compared to Intel. I know everyone has different requirements, but what are the Important options to look for in Intel boards ? I'm a fan of Gigabyte.Asus would be another choice if given.They both make better quality boards.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:37 am

silentvoices wrote:How much difference is there between a 140 dollar board vs 200 dollar board for Intel ?

$60.

Seriously, they all have extra features like perhaps extra network controllers, integrated wireless, extra SATA ports, etc. Some have fancy cooling arrangements though that's mostly a moot point these days as long as you're not going for 100Ghz overclocks.

The intrinsic quality of a $140 board versus a $200, in my opinion, is the same. It's all in whatever bells and whistles you'd like.

By the way, for proper hardcore articles on cooling, check out silentpcreview.com .
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:26 am

silentvoices wrote:How much difference is there between a 140 dollar board vs 200 dollar board for Intel ?

Most/all $200+ boards include a PLX chip. If you're never going to use more than 2 GPUs in Crossfire/SLI, it's a waste of money. A thunderbolt controller is also an expensive addition to a mobo and another waste of money for the majority of users IMO.
Last edited by DPete27 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:30 am

My experience has been that once you get above about $130 or so you're generally paying for extra features, not quality. (We're talking desktop boards here, not high-end workstations or servers.)
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:38 am

morphine wrote:
silentvoices wrote:How much difference is there between a 140 dollar board vs 200 dollar board for Intel ?

$60.

Seriously, they all have extra features like perhaps extra network controllers, integrated wireless, extra SATA ports, etc. Some have fancy cooling arrangements though that's mostly a moot point these days as long as you're not going for 100Ghz overclocks.

One difference that some people will look at is the use of Intel's GbE chip on the more expensive models. Although one might argue that you can just grab a discrete Intel NIC for under $40 (may be <$30 on sale).
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:54 am

Flying Fox wrote:One difference that some people will look at is the use of Intel's GbE chip on the more expensive models. Although one might argue that you can just grab a discrete Intel NIC for under $40 (may be <$30 on sale).

Yeah, this has been my attitude lately as well. Get the basic (but not bargain basement) motherboard, and add stuff as needed. E.g., if I decide I want eSATA or Firewire ports I'll add a 3rd party port bracket or controller card, rather than paying for the deluxe "everything including the kitchen sink" mobo.

Once you've invested in the add-in cards, you can move them to your next build and not pay for the premium motherboard (again).

Also, although Realtek had a (justifiable!) lousy reputation in the past, they're actually not bad these days. Their NICs and audio codecs are both reasonable now.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:15 pm

just brew it! wrote:Also, although Realtek had a (justifiable!) lousy reputation in the past, they're actually not bad these days. Their NICs and audio codecs are both reasonable now.

I second that opinion. I am not benchmarking CPU utilization, latencies, and a few tenths of MB/s in transfer rates. I don't think I notice a difference. Besides, the Realteks usually have good out-of-box support from Windows, which most of time means I don't even need to get Realtek's drivers just to get up and running.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:22 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
just brew it! wrote:Also, although Realtek had a (justifiable!) lousy reputation in the past, they're actually not bad these days. Their NICs and audio codecs are both reasonable now.

I second that opinion. I am not benchmarking CPU utilization, latencies, and a few tenths of MB/s in transfer rates. I don't think I notice a difference. Besides, the Realteks usually have good out-of-box support from Windows, which most of time means I don't even need to get Realtek's drivers just to get up and running.

That has improved a lot on the Linux side too, though the out-of-box NIC drivers could still use a little work. For Realtek NICs on Linux I still recommend installing the latest drivers from Realtek's site, even if the stock ones *seem* to work... you'll probably save yourself some headaches down the road. Realtek audio drivers in recent distros seem to be fine though...
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:17 pm

You missed out on the combination deals that I posted Tuesday.

Are you near a Micro Center? They have good motherboard bundles with the Intel Core i7-4770K or Core i5-4670K processor.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:14 am

To the OP, If you think a Intel or 8350 cpu upgrade is going to change your frame latencies I think you are going to be dissapointed.

I would first upgrade your GPU to a 770 with its 256 memory bus and high memory bandwidth, you would be jumping up over the 660 ti, 670, 680, to the 770 that is a 680 with more memory bandwidth and core speed. So you would be basically jumping 3.5 steps up from the nvidia ladder.

I would try that before a whole new platform.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:00 am

just brew it! wrote:
DPete27 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:Off-topic: Most people put a space after the period at the end of a sentence.

2 spaces actually.

Not any more. Most style guides now recommend against it.


MS Word still flags one space after a period as a spelling/grammar error. I go by 2 spaces, and I refuse to change this because I've been typing now for over 30 years and changing would be like trying to use Windows without a start button or start menu. I am willing to learn new things, but this is simply not one of them.

But I have noticed that for many years now, most forum software eliminates repeating spaces.

Sorry for the OT post...and I have no really useful opinion as to the OP's CPU question. :oops: :)
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:38 pm

vargis14 wrote:To the OP, If you think a Intel or 8350 cpu upgrade is going to change your frame latencies I think you are going to be dissapointed.

I would first upgrade your GPU to a 770 with its 256 memory bus and high memory bandwidth, you would be jumping up over the 660 ti, 670, 680, to the 770 that is a 680 with more memory bandwidth and core speed. So you would be basically jumping 3.5 steps up from the nvidia ladder.

I would try that before a whole new platform.



Frame latencies is definitely not going to make a decision for or against. A GPU will make a difference.I noticed the GTX 770 needs a minimum of 42 amps on a +12 rail.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130919

Given the power draw of the GPU, and the power draw of the 8350 on higher clocks, 4.6g being the average. Intel is looking much more appealing. I have a Logitech x540 5.1 surround sound system, and Asus Xonar DG 5.1 sound card. I use my own separate nic card. Nothing fancy, but works great for gaming. I have always used separate sound and nic card option to put less stress on the motherboard. Plus its better than the standard options on the average board. Really, I don't need alot of fancy options on the motherboard, but the higher end boards seem to have better heatsinks, along with better oc options on the board.

Everyone Else - Thanks for the suggestions on motherboard options. I will spend some time looking at a good combo deal, or sale with keeping quality in mind.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:45 pm

silentvoices wrote:I have always used separate sound and nic card option to put less stress on the motherboard.

???

There are legitimate reasons to use discrete NIC and audio, but "less stress on the motherboard" isn't one of them.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:09 pm

just brew it! wrote:
silentvoices wrote:I have always used separate sound and nic card option to put less stress on the motherboard.

???

There are legitimate reasons to use discrete NIC and audio, but "less stress on the motherboard" isn't one of them.


Your probably correct, but I have always went that route, so I dont plan on changing now. I would image the power draw is very minimal, so I see your point.

Last point concerning power supplies if your running a rig 24/7. Gold has more efficient power delivery. That 770 draws alot of amps on a +12 rail, So that is another concern.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:50 pm

Buying a separate NIC is wasteful. It's not going to work any better than the Intel I217-V on a motherboard with the Lynx Point chipset.


You're just not going to build a single-GPU gaming system with a Haswell processor that needs a 1200 watt power supply. Even with a power-hungry Sandy Bridge-E processor and a Titan graphics card, you might need 500 watts.
http://techreport.com/review/24996/nvid ... reviewed/9


Have you even read the system guide?
http://techreport.com/review/24979/tr-s ... stem-guide


silentvoices wrote: I don't plan on changing now.
At this point, maybe you should just order something pre-built.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:05 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:Buying a separate NIC is foolish and wasteful. It's not going to work any better than the Intel I217-V on a motherboard with the Lynx Point chipset.


You're just not going to build a single-GPU gaming system with a Haswell processor that needs a 1200 watt power supply. Even with a power-hungry Sandy Bridge-E processor and a Titan graphics card, you might need 500 watts.
http://techreport.com/review/24996/nvid ... reviewed/9


Have you even read the system guide?
http://techreport.com/review/24979/tr-s ... stem-guide


silentvoices wrote: I don't plan on changing now.
At this point, maybe you should just order something pre-built.


I was only using that as an example. I dont recall saying I was using a 1200 psu.I was commenting on efficiency.A power supply is most effective at half load. Based on my total system requirements accounting for efficiency. I'll get a good balance. I dont need a tutorial on psu's. A simple psu calculator will do. Thank-You. I built enough rigs in my time, and its worked out fine.No need to be such an jerk.I guess its hard for some people.Such as life.
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:28 pm

Just drop it or tone it down guys.

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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

I googled the 770 and saw that 42 amps on the 12 volt rail. I just cannot believe at 100% load the video card alone could pull 42 amps I am almost positive that is for the whole system considering a corsair tx650v2's 12 volt rail goes up to 53 amps and has 2 6+2pin pin PCIE connectors and could easily power pretty much any single CPU and GPU.
The corsair tx750v2's 12 volt rail goes up to 62 amps and has 4 6+2pin pin PCIE connectors could SLI a pair of 770s with your cpu.

Also for reference The corsair tx850v2's 12 volt rail goes up to 70 amps and has 4 6+2pin pin PCIE connectors.
This is the current PSU I am using with 2 heavily overclocked 965 core 2400 mem @1.075 volts from 822 core and 2003 mem @1.025 volts 560 ti cards in SLI with a overclocked 2600k between 4.5 and 4.9 ghz depending on winter or summer for well over 2 years.
And that's with Nvidia saying a single 560ti need 30 amps and 170 watts on the 12 volt rails and I am using 2 of them overclocked a good 20% so you can say i a pulling 36 amps or better along with 205 watts or better x2 so that would put me at 72 amps 2 amps over my PSU's limit. I just added 20% to the power since i am using more then stock voltage and a 20% increase in core and memory speed, But it is probably 25% perhaps higher then that since when you overclock it greatly increases leakage and power draw once you add voltage and overclock MHZ.... Plus that does not include my 2600k @ 1.3+ volts 4500mhz+ 3x 2tb HDD, 1 SSD, 1 AIO 120mm liquid cooing system with a pump, 5x 120mm fans, 2x 200mm fans and a lighted USB Black widow ultimate keyboard and matching Imperator mouse. Also my PSU's 140mm fan is heat controlled and it rarely turns on ..in fact I have to clean my PC every 3 months from dust buildup on all my 200mm, 120mm fans and GPU fans etc. But my PSU fan is always clean so I do not even think it comes on. Since it only turns on when it gets hot enough.

I figured it might help you decide since NVIDIA and AMD greatly inflate there power requirements for there video cards. My 560 tis are built on a 40nm process with a 360mm squared die with 1950 million transistors. The gtx 770 are built on a 28nm process with a 294mm squared die with 3540 million transistors and a peak power consumption of 230 watts. For comparisons sake A sandy Bridge-E 3970x with 4x4gb quad channel memory @ 4800mhz "wow":) system with a GTX 770 fully loaded on crysis 3 with max settings @ 2560x1440 the WHOLE system pulls only 475 watts. Under a 2d idle It pulls 225 watts from the wall socket. So the actual wattage pulled is a good 10-25% less once you consider efficiency of the PSU itself converting 120v to 12v. Below is the link to the article.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphi ... html#sect1

I hope this helps in some way and makes some sense :)

Also 90 to 100 amps is all that is needed for a mig welder that runs off of 115 volts so 42 amps from a 770 card alone, I highly doubt it.
Last edited by vargis14 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2600k HT on@4705mhz 8gb Cas9 1600 mem 2x EVGA GTX770 4gb Classified cards in SLI @1320 mhz core and 2003 mhz mem,mounted in CM HAF922 with a TX-850 PSU 2xHTPC's 2xi3 2120 3.3ghz dual core,1xasus LP HD6570 1xHIS hd7750@1150core1325mem,55"PanyVT30
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Re: Help with CPU choice

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:18 pm

vargis14 wrote:I googled the 770 and saw that 42 amps on the 12 volt rail.

No way, no how is any video card consuming 504 watts, dissipating that much heat, and staying in one piece short of using LN2 cooling.
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