Summer Project

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Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:54 pm

I have decided to put together a system which I may - or may not - sell for cost at the end of it (I tend to get attached to my computers - even those I build for other people).

I have been thinking about it for some time, but yesterday I saw an offer that kicked it off. I had managed to get a Corsair AX860 at a bargain price a couple or so weeks ago ($158). I looked yesterday and the retailer was offering a new batch of the same PSU for the same price. I ordered another and when I looked back, he had noticed his mistake and put the price up by over $30.

At the same time I saw an offer for the CoolerMaster HAF XB case, which I find appealing in many respects and not just looks, at a price of $99.

All the prices I mention now and in future with regard to this project will include delivery.

So those two have kicked off the project.

Over the coming weeks and months I will look to see what offer I can find which I just cannot say no to with regard to the price. I am somewhat agnostic as to what I will be buying to put into the machine. All I want at the end of it is something with no foul compromises for the lowest price I can get the components.

I have 8GB (2*4GB) of Corsair XMS3 RAM and I will be on the lookout for either a 128 GB Samsung 840 Pro or a Corsair Neutron SSD. I will be going with a Seagate ST4000DM000 hard drive.

However nothing at this point is written in stone. At the end of the build I will show my prices as opposed to what I would have had to pay if I were buying at normal retail prices.

With what I have so far and how far below normal retail prices I am:

Corsair AX860 -$45
CoolerMaster HAF XB -$36
Corsair XMS3 RAM -$12

It has to be remembered that I live in the UK where prices are higher than in the US. I have converted the prices from UK Pounds (£) into US Dollars ($). Let's see what it will be like by the end of September.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:26 am

I do not recomend you build the whole PC using this aproach. I would say you have already bought more PSU than you can use. 150 bucks is a lot to spend on a power supply if you only need 400 watts of power. You should have some idea what the total system will look like before buying components. You did not do bad, good deals on memory, power supplies and coolers are kind of hard to pass up. They can sit on the shelf for a while without becoming obsolete. When I buy a PC my starting place is what will it be used for. I start with the software I need to run and then build or buy a PC.
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:47 am

I would never build a PC to sell at cost in the UK; Ebay is absolutely drowning in "sold-at-cost" machines
Companies like Zoostorm and e-machines offer desktops at seemingly less than cost, no doubt thanks to economies of scale.

Unless you are approached by someone and you offer to build something for them, I'd be utterly gobsmacked if you didn't make a big loss trying to sell a bespoke PC with no support except parts warranty. I got out of that business a decade ago, and even with VAT exemption it was difficult to make money even then thanks to the changes in the market. Unless you're registered as a sole-trader under HMRC, you've got no chance because it's difficult (if not impossible) to be competetive even before the government have stung you for another 20%.
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:04 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:I would never build a PC to sell at cost in the UK; Ebay is absolutely drowning in "sold-at-cost" machines
Companies like Zoostorm and e-machines offer desktops at seemingly less than cost, no doubt thanks to economies of scale.

Unless you are approached by someone and you offer to build something for them, I'd be utterly gobsmacked if you didn't make a big loss trying to sell a bespoke PC with no support except parts warranty. I got out of that business a decade ago, and even with VAT exemption it was difficult to make money even then thanks to the changes in the market. Unless you're registered as a sole-trader under HMRC, you've got no chance because it's difficult (if not impossible) to be competetive even before the government have stung you for another 20%.


Don't tell me that, I have to have an excuse to justify it :lol:

For me it is the fun of the hunt and I thought I made that pretty clear, if not then that's my bad. I don't need to do this, I'm doing it because I want to.

As for selling it, you guys don't know me, however in my community - my real life community - I am well known and respected as a computer techie. So if I did consider selling it when it is finished it would be gone in literally seconds, there would be none of this EBAY nonsense. It is a shame that you concentrated on the selling aspect of my post because you really missed the whole point of it.

For instance, do I need a $510 keyboard? No of course I don't, I do enjoy using it occasionally but mainly it is the kind of keyboard I always wanted - made of wood with brass keys and looks like something H. G. Wells would have typed on with gorgeous Elizabethan Script on the keys.

I have two DasKeyboards, I originally bought the professional model and after using that and being very happy with it I decided I wanted the Ultimate model (without any markings on the keys) which I am using now. I loan out the professional model to neighbours and friends who have broken their keyboards. I don't mind it if they take their time getting a replacement (which they do - take their time that is - because they love typing on mine) however they are put off by the price and generally buy a cheapo one, preferably with gaming keys which they never use, which will break again soon (some folks just never learn).

At the end of the day that's probably what I will do with the computer I am building for fun now - loan it out to a friend whose system has given up the ghost. There would however be three exceptions, one person I know just breaks things, by that I mean he is the kiss of death for anything electrical. Two others because they never give things back after having had something loaned to them.

I have a Bose radio which I have been using as my speakers for about 14 years now. I have never used it as a radio and didn't buy it as a radio. It's small, it's compact but for the size of it the sound is amazing quality. Do I need that? No of course I don't. It did and does however give me exactly what I want.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:26 pm

Ah, you just want to build for the fun of it? :)
If you don't already, get all your home data on a NAS or permanent server somewhere and just mess around with your PC's at home. That way you get to tinker and when you get bored of it you should sell it and start new with the budget. Losing money (if you don't break even) doesn't feel like a problem when you're always on the latest and greatest tech, and you rarely have to worry about stuff getting old that way.

I build hundreds of PC's a year still, even though that' hasn't been my focus for over a decade, and yet I still tinker at home with a couple of PC's on a regular basis (like, monthly). The attraction is optimising stuff, I actually have access to a modelshop where I can easily make complex-shaped air ducts out of acrylic and perspex. My favourite project was a "passively-cooled" 7950 and 4.5GHz where the near-silent 180mm case fan did all of the work.

I tend not to buy motherboards/processors very often. They just seem to last forever, but I do go through cases, storage (expansion and consolidation), cooling and most of all, graphics cards with alarming regularity. My next project is to create a massively soundproofed supsended DAS box that connects via a SAS PERC card by cannibalising an old Dell MD1000 from work. I want my 10TB of drives to not be in my HTPC where it's too cramped for serious soundproofing or physically decoupling the drives from the chassis ;)

As for offers dictating your build, I assume you're checking the "today only/this week only" at places like SCAN and OCUK but I'm finding that failing or fresh-startup companies often make stock errors or have previous model stock, so I often go hunting on Google product search and it's extra fun trying to work out if a barely-reviewed site you've never heard of before is legit, or whether that too-cheap-to-be-true offer is actually a scam.
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:18 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:Ah, you just want to build for the fun of it? :)
If you don't already, get all your home data on a NAS or permanent server somewhere and just mess around with your PC's at home. That way you get to tinker and when you get bored of it you should sell it and start new with the budget. Losing money (if you don't break even) doesn't feel like a problem when you're always on the latest and greatest tech, and you rarely have to worry about stuff getting old that way.

I build hundreds of PC's a year still, even though that' hasn't been my focus for over a decade, and yet I still tinker at home with a couple of PC's on a regular basis (like, monthly). The attraction is optimising stuff, I actually have access to a modelshop where I can easily make complex-shaped air ducts out of acrylic and perspex. My favourite project was a "passively-cooled" 7950 and 4.5GHz where the near-silent 180mm case fan did all of the work.

I tend not to buy motherboards/processors very often. They just seem to last forever, but I do go through cases, storage (expansion and consolidation), cooling and most of all, graphics cards with alarming regularity. My next project is to create a massively soundproofed supsended DAS box that connects via a SAS PERC card by cannibalising an old Dell MD1000 from work. I want my 10TB of drives to not be in my HTPC where it's too cramped for serious soundproofing or physically decoupling the drives from the chassis ;)

As for offers dictating your build, I assume you're checking the "today only/this week only" at places like SCAN and OCUK but I'm finding that failing or fresh-startup companies often make stock errors or have previous model stock, so I often go hunting on Google product search and it's extra fun trying to work out if a barely-reviewed site you've never heard of before is legit, or whether that too-cheap-to-be-true offer is actually a scam.


Not only do I check the UK sellers but also the German ones. Alternate.de and mix-computer.de for instance.

Now here's a coincidence, just before I looked at your reply I bought a Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 Vapor-X. At £238 it was just too good a bargain to resist.

I haven't built many systems for other people in recent years. I am just not willing to make foul compromises to achieve a price. I am not willing to build a system that would break my heart to put together. So mainly my response has been, "No", when I have been asked to either build or recommend a computer below a certain price.

I grew up in the family business over in Germany and here is a picture of what we "cobbled together" over thirty years ago.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Idstein_-_Altstadt.jpg

I am referring to the cobble-stones we laid down. After three and a half decades it still looks immaculate. Quality has its price and it is not only what you see on the top but also how the ground is prepared underneath the cobble-stones which is vital for the durability of the surface over time, especially when heavy delivery trucks regularly drive over it. That is not cheap and this philosophy I learned from my grandfather guides my attitude with regard to building a system.

Even today with my cousin running the business (it is now in the sixth generation) our family business still turns down requests for it to get involved in projects where the specifications are below our standards - we don't do "good enough".

There is something that comes to mind. Back when I was studying Psychology at Bonn University I took shelter under the McDonalds that was in the centre of town (Friedens Platz) and I saw a guy in front of me trying to break basalt cobble-stones to fit around a large round drain. The guy was having a spectacular lack of success and obviously had not the first clue with regard to what he was doing. Basalt has a grain, just like wood, and if you try to split it against the grain then all you get is splinters. He was looking up at the sky and like me realised it was going to rain heavily soon.

So I went over to him and discovered that he hardly understood any German, but with hand gestures I made it plain that I wanted his hammer. He handed it over, I picked up a cobble-stone, looked at it, struck it once and had two evenly sized triangular bits. I did this for another ten or so stones and handed him back the hammer (not just triangles but also splitting the square cobble-stones into rectangular halves) . The look of amazement on his face which then turned into a big smile made me very happy. He got the stones laid around the drain and managed to get under cover beside me just before the rain came down. The one thing I remember was standing there beside him smoking a cigarette with him and the look he kept giving me and then looking back to where he had just been working. I mean, what are the odds right?

I don't do any modding simply because I have no artistic talent whatsoever. I admire the work of those who do have that talent immensely.

With my own personal system I get it right the first time and don't need to tinker, just add stuff; or replace something to upgrade them when something better comes along at a price I am willing to pay such as the Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 Vapor-X to replace the XFX HD 5770 which has been running in the system since I first built it around three years ago.

I don't go with "the latest and greatest" tech simply because I think the phrase, "Never touch a running system" has a lot of validity. My system is a workhorse on which I also like to play games. As chance would have it the games I prefer aren't as heavy on the GPU as they are on the CPU (X3 Albion Prelude for instance). I was going to go with the Sapphire HD 7870 but then decided that the 7950 was worth the extra £50. I especially don't buy any hardware that has not been out in the wild for at least three months, no matter what the reviews and the benchmarks say. I am not a gamma tester.
Last edited by Nec_V20 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:48 am

Dagwood wrote:I do not recomend you build the whole PC using this aproach. I would say you have already bought more PSU than you can use. 150 bucks is a lot to spend on a power supply if you only need 400 watts of power. You should have some idea what the total system will look like before buying components. You did not do bad, good deals on memory, power supplies and coolers are kind of hard to pass up. They can sit on the shelf for a while without becoming obsolete. When I buy a PC my starting place is what will it be used for. I start with the software I need to run and then build or buy a PC.


As I replied to Chrispy_, it is the fun of the hunt that is the motivation for me. I have been building computer systems for nigh on three decades now and I have a "feel" for things that will work well together. My main aim is stability, not benchmarks. I mean what the hell are benchmarks worth with regard to some hardware when what they don't tell you is that the system will BSOD every 30 minutes or so? I have learned to read "reviews" for things they DON'T mention, usually stuff alluded to in some sub-paragraph which sets off alarm bells in my head. My main system has been up and running 24/7 now for 976 days 9 hours and the last BSOD I had was over a year ago.

The last thing I will be deciding upon is the CPU/Motherboard.

The only "idea what the total system will look like" that I have is that I have limited myself to a maximum of £1000 (about $1,500) and not a single penny more.

With regard to the AX860 PSU I would disagree; I bought the best damn PSU I can get - bar none - for a price I was willing to pay. It has upward mobility rather than buying an "adequate" PSU which has nothing but upward mortality. I still don't trust the Corsair "i" series of PSUs and they seem to have more problems than it is worth with regard to their "Corsair Link" software. As I said in my other post, I am not a gamma tester. The Seasonic range that Corsair offers has stood me in good stead and I am sticking to that - for now. So why did I not get the AX760? Because I found the AX860 offered cheaper than any price I could find for the AX760, it's that simple.

As for your point, "I start with the software I need to run and then build or buy a PC."; whatever I end up with will at least run EVERYTHING without making ridiculous compromises (like running a game at 640*480 in 256 colours :o :D ).
Last edited by Nec_V20 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:57 am

Chrispy_

Now here's a coincidence, just before I looked at your reply I bought a Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 Vapor-X. At £238 it was just too good a bargain to resist.


Reading this I think you will probably reply that the Vapor-X version of the card is not overclockable because it is voltage locked. From what I have managed to discover about the card that is only true when one has pressed the button to put it into boost mode. In normal mode it can be overclocked voltage and all.

That is one of the first things I will be testing when I get the card tomorrow or on Saturday and I will definitively get back on that.

On that note, the BSOD I had about a year ago was after I had updated the AMD "Catalyst Control Center" and it was sorted after I had uninstalled it, wiped the Registry (manually), and found the prior version to reinstall.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:19 pm

Just bought the next load of stuff to go into the HAF XB and that is the cooling fans and the 240 mm watercooler.

I went for the Corsair H100i watercooler which I got for $127.5

For the fans I went with

a) 3* Noctua NF-F12 120mm PWM fans (2 for the H100i to replace the ones that come with it and one to exhaust out the back) $76
b) 2* Noctua NF-R8 80mm PWM fans $37.5

I didn't notice this on the H60 I recently bought and I really think I am going to need some kind of awareness testing done on the old noggin; and I am am going to criticise Corsair for bollock worthy stupidity.

When I built in the H60 I did some tests with the fan that came with it (but I had already decided to buy a Noctua NF-F12 simply because I know the fan that Corsair supplies with it is not quiet). I have it attached to the fan controller I have built into the 5.25 bay and took the temps at full RPM and when I had the fan controller turned down to a minimum. What surprised me no end was that the Noctua fan when it was dialled right down the H60 was only about one degree or so hotter than the fan Corsair supplies with it going at full whack. When I dialled the Noctua up to full revs the H60 was a bit over three degrees cooler. Now I ran all these tests with the CPU under full load with Prime95 and four videos running to give the APU something to do on the A8-5600K I have in my test box.

So why am I bollocking Corsair? I noticed this when I unpacked the H100i today (which I didn't with the H60), the bloody fan housings are ROUND! I have no idea which twat at Corsair thought that it was a great idea to put a high static pressure fan into a round frame to go with their watercoolers. The Noctua fan comes in a square frame which makes a very good seal to the H60 so all the air the fan is drawing in goes through the radiator because it simply has no other place to go. Not so with the freaking Corsair fans in the round frame which is first of all raised quite a bit from the radiator and also creates dead zones of no airflow where fins are not cooled at all.

It doesn't take a genius to realise that if you are putting a high static pressure fan onto a radiator you want it pretty much sealed around the edges!

So I will be flogging off the fans that came with the H60 and H100i and also the two fans that came with the HAF XB case and that will knock off about $75 from my total (they are not bad fans, just not up to Noctua standard).

With all the extra power cables that come with the Noctua fans I will be able to do a really tidy build with regard to attaching them to the fan controller on the H100i itself.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm

Update to selling off the fans that came with the H100 (and the one with the H60) and the two CoolerMaster fans. I went to the get some food from the Chinese takeaway this afternoon and I met one of the people who knows me, who had just had a fan die on him.

Anyway he came back home with me and I let him hear the two different fans and although he only needed one he was not too happy with the other 120mm fan he has so wanted two of them. He went for the Corsair ones and I checked to see the prices and gave over $3 off the price for each. Because I have the fans in the Noctua box I have all the odds and sods in there as well and when he asked what they were I told him (splitter, step-down, extension) and asked me what I wanted for them. I told him $3 each.

Now even going at full whack he told me that the Corsair fans were a lot quieter than the fans he had in his case already and the Corsair fans move a lot more air.

So I sold him the two fans for $16.50 each and the extension and splitter for another $6 which means that I have recouped $39 on my outlay for the Noctua fans.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:51 am

Having a look around I quite like the idea of a Gigabyte Z87X-UD5H motherboard together with a 4770k.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:58 am

You should make your own blog, dude. It would be more fitting for such one-way communication. You could even let people subscribe to it or post updates in your Twitter. Or even put your own podcasts to it and YouTube videos of you doing stuff. Just saying. :wink:
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:35 pm

JohnC wrote:You should make your own blog, dude. It would be more fitting for such one-way communication. You could even let people subscribe to it or post updates in your Twitter. Or even put your own podcasts to it and YouTube videos of you doing stuff. Just saying. :wink:


Why do you feel so threatened by one thread that nobody has forced you to open, read or comment on?

Just saying.
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:04 pm

:lol:
You're mistaken "threatened" for "amused".
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:03 pm

JohnC wrote::lol:
You're mistaken "threatened" for "amused".

Don't you mean "You're mistaking "threatened" for "amused"."

Well at least you got the "You're" part right.

Vielleicht sollten wir es auf deutsch versuchen, da Sie offensichtlich Probleme aufweisen bezüglich englisch.

Just saying
CoolerMaster HAF X, i7-990x, Gigabyte X58A-UD3R, 24GB Corsair XMS, Sapphire 7950 Vapor-X, Corsair Neutron 128GB, 3*Seagate HD (3TB), Seagate HD (1.5TB), Hitachi HD (2TB), Plextor DVD + BluRay, StorageWorks DAT 72, 29160 SCSI Adapter, Corsair H80
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Re: Summer Project

Postposted on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:05 pm

OK, this ends here. The two of you need to take this to PMs.

Locked.
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