Personal computing discussed
Moderators: renee, Steel, notfred
zenlessyank wrote:May I suggest a $50 drill bit??
http://www.zorotools.com/g/Extra%20Long ... /00062327/
They have 24" to 48" length bits in varying diameters.
just brew it! wrote:zenlessyank wrote:May I suggest a $50 drill bit??
http://www.zorotools.com/g/Extra%20Long ... /00062327/
They have 24" to 48" length bits in varying diameters.
How does that help with the cell phone reception issue? He's not asking how to set up a wired network in this building; he's asking how to make wireless work for mobile devices.
just brew it! wrote:So the *internal* walls are 1'+ concrete? That's rough. I can't think of any obvious inexpensive solutions.
SecretSquirrel wrote:No two ways about it, if the signal degradation is as bad as you say, you need antennas in every room.
--SS
zenlessyank wrote:Since it probably already has electricity run through the building, you may be able to use powerline networking modules.
dunno how pricey it may get but you wont have to drill holes!!!
MaxTheLimit wrote:It won't help with the cell reception ( though I don't see anything in the OP asking for improved cellular service ), but at work we use Ubiquity nano stations in those sorts of buildings. They have enough power to get good coverage, even through thick stone / concrete walled buildings. They aren't too expensive. They are VERY durable, and they provide decent throughput.
JdL wrote:SecretSquirrel wrote:No two ways about it, if the signal degradation is as bad as you say, you need antennas in every room.
--SS
Sounds right. You think it would be possible to run a bunch of antennas from a single Wifi router, instead of having to do the complex (and troublesome) handoff from router to router?
SecretSquirrel wrote:Because of the way RF and antennas work, no, afraid not. Even if you could, you probably wouldn't like the results. A wireless access point is capable of supporting a certain bandwidth, say 54Mbps. That bandwidth is divided amongst all devices sending or receiving traffic through that access point. So feeding several classrooms with a single AP where that is the sole method of connectivity, especially if the students are using devices too, would lead to pretty crappy network speeds.
JdL wrote:Sounds right. You think it would be possible to run a bunch of antennas from a single Wifi router, instead of having to do the complex (and troublesome) handoff from router to router?
just brew it! wrote:So the *internal* walls are 1'+ concrete? That's rough. I can't think of any obvious inexpensive solutions.
SecretSquirrel wrote:A wifi access point per room, or per pair of rooms if you can locate it in a centralized point and run a couple of coax lines to an antenna mount in each room. It's not cheap, but in the scheme of networking, not terribly expensive unless you go with tier-1 gear. What you would get with a tier-1 solution is the ability to manage it all a bit better. If you are trying to do it on the cheap, you can probably do wifi in each room for about $100 per room plus another $150-200 per 16 rooms, plus the cost of labor. This all assumes you can get cable run too.
No two ways about it, if the signal degradation is as bad as you say, you need antennas in every room.
notfred wrote:For wifi if you go with proper business class wifi it will support http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Acce ... t_Protocol so that devices will roam seamlessly from one AP to another.
SecretSquirrel wrote:Because of the way RF and antennas work, no, afraid not. Even if you could, you probably wouldn't like the results. A wireless access point is capable of supporting a certain bandwidth, say 54Mbps. That bandwidth is divided amongst all devices sending or receiving traffic through that access point. So feeding several classrooms with a single AP where that is the sole method of connectivity, especially if the students are using devices too, would lead to pretty crappy network speeds.
SecretSquirrel wrote:One thing to note is that you do not need "wireless routers", in fact you don't want any of the functionality they provide. Authentication and DCHP need to be handled by a central system. All the access point needs to do is provide connectivity at the transport layer.
NovusBogus wrote:Does handoff really matter here? It's a school so I'm assuming he has some teacher PCs that never move and possibly a set of tablets that are occasionally brought to a room and powered up for an hour at a time.
Flatland_Spider wrote:You're going to be dealing with APs not routers, and if you have all of them running on the same SSID and security key the hand off won't be a problem. You'll, of course, have to have adequate coverage to avoid dead spots, but this really isn't a problem. This is how wifi access works in deployments that need to cover a wide area. There are a bunch of APs that all broadcaset the same SSID and use security key. There is usually a central controller, so support doesn't have to touch each AP when a change is made. End users just see magic, if they notice at all.
Flatland_Spider wrote:Depending on the budget, I would either go with cheap consumer routers running DD-WRT in AP mode
drsauced wrote:We're using Ubiquiti Unifi WAPs, which are, in my opinion, the best and cheapest on the market. There's four APs to choose from, the AP Pro and the AP 'ac' being PoE out of the box. The regular and long range units need a 48v to 24v converter to work with PoE switches and adds about $20 per AP. The AP Pros are my choice, the range is very good, comes with 802.11a, and like all the Unifi APs, very easy to mount on a ceiling or wall. The AP 'ac' models don't yet do fast roaming and require the 3.0.something management software which is still in beta.
Contingency wrote:just brew it! wrote:So the *internal* walls are 1'+ concrete? That's rough. I can't think of any obvious inexpensive solutions.
Zenlessyank did!
Contingency wrote:Hi all,SecretSquirrel wrote:Because of the way RF and antennas work, no, afraid not. Even if you could, you probably wouldn't like the results. A wireless access point is capable of supporting a certain bandwidth, say 54Mbps. That bandwidth is divided amongst all devices sending or receiving traffic through that access point. So feeding several classrooms with a single AP where that is the sole method of connectivity, especially if the students are using devices too, would lead to pretty crappy network speeds.
Right for the wrong reason.
Contingency wrote:SecretSquirrel wrote:One thing to note is that you do not need "wireless routers", in fact you don't want any of the functionality they provide. Authentication and DCHP need to be handled by a central system. All the access point needs to do is provide connectivity at the transport layer.
Access points are layer 2 devices, so transport layer is also incorrect.
Contingency wrote:With this silly notion of "wireless everything" out of the way, you can then allocate wireless capability as needed. Room full of laptops? Make it a computer lab--wired. Room full of tablets--get an AP. Teacher with a tablet she bought--USB cable. Two computers and a printer? Switch. If you're looking at more than a handful of APs, go with a controller-based network (and maybe a cheap spare AP to loan out in a pinch). Consumer-grade equipment only leads to heartaches and headaches.
drsauced wrote:We have a little bit of this concrete walls business, too. The solution is a lot of APs, which means more cabling and PoE switches. This also means more expense, but happier users.
We're using Ubiquiti Unifi WAPs, which are, in my opinion, the best and cheapest on the market. There's four APs to choose from, the AP Pro and the AP 'ac' being PoE out of the box. The regular and long range units need a 48v to 24v converter to work with PoE switches and adds about $20 per AP. The AP Pros are my choice, the range is very good, comes with 802.11a, and like all the Unifi APs, very easy to mount on a ceiling or wall. The AP 'ac' models don't yet do fast roaming and require the 3.0.something management software which is still in beta.
For cell coverage, you might have to go to a DAS solution, or something like Wilson boosters judiciously placed. The problem with cell boosters is that they provide signal, but not extra capacity on the cell network. Basically, they allow a couple hundred more devices to connect to the nearest cell tower. Microcells and other DAS solutions fix that, but can be a lot more expensive.
just brew it! wrote:That only solves the wired networking issue. The OP indicates that he wants WiFi and cell coverage.
After reading all of the responses (including yours), I stand by my original statement that there are no obvious inexpensive solutions.
SecretSquirrel wrote:Do tell...
SecretSquirrel wrote:Funny, that wireless everything might just be one of those vaunted requirements you were complementing NovusBogus on asking about. Having real experince with a large suburban school district, I can tell you that wireless everything IS a requirement. All the teachers have laptops and tablets and are expected to encorportate use of them into their teaching throughout the day. This means moving about the room and interacting with with students and the technology. This starts in kindergarten. By the time you get to high school, every student is issued a tablet and expected to use them as part of their normal class activities.
zenlessyank wrote:My comment about drilling holes and running wire was under the (ass)umption that an access point would be installed in each room and wired back into a central router/switch etc. I also assumed that cell coverage would also be covered since they can use WiFi calling. Which means for CHEAP, this can be done.
I can do the job for you if it isn't too far away. I have a buddy who who is a licensed electrician so it can all be done to code. You pick out the access point out you want to use, then we can go from there. The drilling of the holes can probably be avoided as there are holes somewhere already for lights, ventilation etc. Use good shielded cable and I don't see a big problem.
Contingency wrote:And this is why you shouldn't listen to hobbyists. There's a Henry Ford quote being thrown around these days, "If I asked customers what they wanted, it'd be faster horses." (I wasn't really him that said this.) Desk phones and running cable would provide almost all of the requested functionality (voice/data access) at a fraction of the cost. Requirements aren't always what the customer requests, and often not what the customer is willing to pay for.
kc77 wrote:Contingency wrote:And this is why you shouldn't listen to hobbyists. There's a Henry Ford quote being thrown around these days, "If I asked customers what they wanted, it'd be faster horses." (I wasn't really him that said this.) Desk phones and running cable would provide almost all of the requested functionality (voice/data access) at a fraction of the cost. Requirements aren't always what the customer requests, and often not what the customer is willing to pay for.
Except the OP was quite clear about fixing the cellular/WIFI issue. If the question was "What's the best way to bring network access to X,Y, or Z?" then you would be correct. But the OP didn't ask that question and asked specifically about cellular / WIFI access. Therefore people are giving responses based on that. My guess is that there are people that would probably like to use their phones, tablets, etc., to access email and other services. It is a common problem. As JBI stated previously, the cost of fixing the issue isn't going to be cheap. So the issue of cost has already been mentioned.
kc77 wrote:There is no need to stand on Mt. Sinai and preach to people who are trying to assist others rather than appeasing their inner id. That is what YouTube is for. You can make a video of you watching you watch yourself all day and even peruse the comments to see if that self visual is pleasing to others. Conversely this area of the forum is designed to help people with networking issues or questions.
SecretSquirrel wrote:A wifi access point per room, or per pair of rooms if you can locate it in a centralized point and run a couple of coax lines to an antenna mount in each room.
Contingency wrote:Me hurting the feelings of the resident expert (whose claim to fame is stepping foot in a school).
The outrage here is entirely misplaced. Helping a bad poster into a woodchipper is still help, and I'm glad to be of service.
SecretSquirrel wrote:Contingency wrote:Me hurting the feelings of the resident expert (whose claim to fame is stepping foot in a school).
The outrage here is entirely misplaced. Helping a bad poster into a woodchipper is still help, and I'm glad to be of service.
You, sir, are an ass.
SecretSquirrel wrote:To some of your points, I made no claim to be an expert
SecretSquirrel wrote:Having real experince with a large suburban school district
SecretSquirrel wrote:...and it wouldn't matter if I did as, unless I was a well known industry name, there is no way you could verify my claims anyway. My advice is worth exactly amount of time I put into coming up with possible solutions times what I was paid for it. So that would be very little times zero. Glad I could help.
SecretSquirrel wrote:Since you are the wireless expert, I expect you know that several manufacturers make access points with multiple independent radios in them that are specifically designed to feed seperate antennas and run on different channels and may or may not have diversity antennas for each radio. I will admit that they are enterprise class access points, but since you were recommending enterprise gear to begin with I would think that acceptable. Here is just one example that happens to have two radios with two diversity antennas per radio.: http://www.extricom.com/?catid={68926E01-12DC-428A-A850-45FA92081D33}
SecretSquirrel wrote:Listening to hobbiests and enthusiests is certainly a mixed bag and does require a certain amount of intelligence and leg work to be useful. No doubt about that. To the OP, good luck with your project, I hope some of the ideas tossed out have given you things to consider and that some of the attitudes and behavior will remind you to shop around when selecting your vedor and equipment provider. To be fair, I would be just as wary of a vendor that told you he could solve every problem you had without any issue too.