Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

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Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:37 am

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Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:02 am

clone wrote:p.s. also makes me wonder how long the U.S. has been using drones given the tech's arguably been around since the 80's.

Buran did all of those things. The liquid-fueled strap-on boosters for Energia are now launchers in their own right (Zenit). It flew but once, to prove it could, and then died in the Soviet economic collapse of the late 1980's.

As for drones, the Ryan Firebee series has been around since the late 1940s.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:10 am

I believe this is the first US mission using "drones"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aphrodite

Not really the same as a modern drone but this was the 1940s. I understand the Germans had a radio guided bomb/missile even earlier but I'm pretty sure you couldn't classify that as a drone.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:15 am

cheesyking wrote:I believe this is the first US mission using "drones"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aphrodite

Not really the same as a modern drone but this was the 1940s. I understand the Germans had a radio guided bomb/missile even earlier but I'm pretty sure you couldn't classify that as a drone.

Jack Kennedy was not his father's first choice to become President. His older brother Joe was vaporized when a Project Aphrodite B-24 decided to explode itself well before the designed trigger point.

That's right, folks. Absent the Aphrodite failure, JFK is never President.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:34 pm

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Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:48 pm

The liquid-fueled strap-on boosters for Energia are now launchers in their own right (Zenit).
I keep forgetting that!

Which is sad considering I have been up close to one...

Image
Zenit 3SL by continuum, on Flickr
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:13 pm

Do you know how the russian space shuttle was destroyed? The Buran was being kept in a Big run down Hanger and the roof supports fell on it. I read it long ago...might as well look it up.

Wiki post
On 12 May 2002, a hangar housing Buran collapsed during a massive storm in Kazakhstan, as a result of poor maintenance. The collapse killed eight workers and destroyed the craft as well as a mock-up of an Energia carrier rocket.

I know it is effective but i find it strange that the russian rockets use so many engines I have seem 30 on a main booster. I imagine they do not have to worry about each small engine as much as one to four Much bigger rocket engines. Also I think the smaller engines can be built more inexpensively since they do not have to withstand the super pressures of big ole rocket engines, plus i imagine you could lose up to 5 small engines and still make it to orbit...Lose one of 2 or 3 big rocket engines and we have a problem houston.. But i am no rocket scientist.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:51 pm

Multiple engines means better redundancies but it also means greater complexities (the plumbing is difficult).
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:18 pm

ChronoReverse wrote:Multiple engines means better redundancies but it also means greater complexities (the plumbing is difficult).

The engine that powers the Zenit, the RD-171, has a single turbopump assembly feeding 4 separate thrust chambers.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Amusing thread. It's like reading the experience of a person who stepped outside of his house for first time and realized that he is not the only one who lives on this planet :D
Anyway, yea, that autopilot system in Buran was kind of interesting BUT these existed (in one way or the other) for many years before it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot
And the amount of money wasted on that Shuttle clone program and related technologies while most of the citizens were staring at empty store shelves or standing in lines for some "rare" shoes/clothes - trust me, there is NOTHING "impressive", "incredible" or positive about that. Been there, seen that, don't want to ever see it again (and don't want my children to see that either) even if it means giving up the technology race to other countries.

Also, that ArsTech's article... :lol: Pretty hilarious read. Especially sentences like this:
"Orbiter OK-2.01 . . . .It was dismantled and sat gathering dust at the Tushina factory near Moscow for years until 2011 when it was reportedly moved to an aviation museum in Germany for restoration. "
These clueless copypasters couldn't even transliterate names properly - it's not "Tushina", it's "Tushino" factory, named after the city of Tushino. And Unit 2.01 was never moved to Germany.
Last edited by JohnC on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:27 pm

I'll have to pass the corrections on to the author.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:31 pm

Why? The "author" already got paid for this article, which is the only thing that matters - the people who are unfamiliar with history of Buran's units or unfamiliar with Russian language won't care about such silly things anyway :wink:
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:44 am

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Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:52 am

We do try to be accurate, just like Techreport. ;)
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:23 am

clone wrote: your message will be ignored because you've chosen to have it ignored.

You are free to do it any time, my dear friend. I've simply expressed my personal opinion regarding this thread, I definitely do not expect anyone else to agree with it or follow it :wink:
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:19 am

JohnC wrote:And the amount of money wasted on that Shuttle clone program and related technologies...

Well now the US really can't afford one either, so we are even with Russia on that score.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:32 am

Hawkwing74 wrote:
JohnC wrote:And the amount of money wasted on that Shuttle clone program and related technologies...
Well now the US really can't afford one either, so we are even with Russia on that score.

What's really scary is that the only man-rated launcher in use right now launched the first man ever to go into space.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:19 am

I find this whole thing interesting...

Yeah, autopilot has been around for a long time, but so has autoland. I believe that was first used on civilian aircraft in the 60s, although the robustness has certainly improved since then.

For multiple engines, yeah, plumbing. Also, more room for mistakes since each engine has the possibility for failure. It might not stop your rocket from going to space, but it could still be problematic depending on the failure mode.

I think nodern drones are getting some attention because of precision. Spacex, for example, has the Grasshopper. That's a booster designed to fly itself back to the launchpad instead of getting destroyed. While it doesn't travel as far as a space shuttle would on the way to a landing strip, it still has to manuver itself and keep upright. Landing a plane (or shuttle/brick) can take advantage of the fact that it's already moving in one general direction, and the autopilot only has to make adjustments to stay on a path.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:07 pm

superjawes wrote:Yeah, autopilot has been around for a long time, but so has autoland. I believe that was first used on civilian aircraft in the 60s, although the robustness has certainly improved since then.

Trident was "the first airliner to make a blind landing in revenue service in 1965." It was certified to do Cat IIIc "zero-zero", which isn't used these days as nobody has solved the problem of how to taxi to and from the runway when you can't see anything. It also had 3 independent systems autoland systems to do 2:1 majority voting.

I don't know that modern systems are more robust. They are definitely smaller - the Trident nose gear was offset and retracted sideways because the avionics bay was so large.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:19 pm

clone wrote:as I've grown older I just don't know about the value of generosity, I could send food to Africa but it won't fix the problem so why would I?.... I'd love to fix the problem, I've no interest in prolonging it.

I hope you're consistent in this opinion. If you were to vote wrong, it would certainly mean there is inconsistency and we wouldn't want that.

This tangent seems like a good topic for the religion/politics forums. So, I'll take it there.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:37 pm

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Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:58 pm

clone wrote:
You are free to do it any time, my dear friend. I've simply expressed my personal opinion regarding this thread
my most dearest friend, your personal opinion is a string of platitudes used to attack this thread and the ppl in it. cynicism isn't unique or original ace. :wink:
it's called trolling. :P

:lol: Pot? Kettle? Black?
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:12 pm

on a related note and trying to get this thread back on track, the buran shuttle story reminds me of the russian lunokhod program that put remote-controlled rovers on the moon in 1970 and 1973. yeah i couldn't believe it at first either but check it out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_program

and an awesome documentary about the program called "tank on the moon"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5dX00iXlyg
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:04 am

Yeah, when I first heard about the Russian shuttle program I was intrigued too. They basically are superior in design to the US shuttles in almost every form. It's too bad they never really took off and the program was scrapped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_programme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft)

The US might actually have some interest in forwarding the space program if the Russians were launching such things into space when we can't.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:11 am

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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:34 am

clone wrote:then realized it was way too expensive to bother with.

:lol: It was "too expensive" before the project even began. Everyone knew that, but the cost was simply not important at that time, the only thing that was important is to show the "capitalist pigs" that "we can also do sciency stuff! And some of it is even better than yours!"

clone wrote:I'm still equal to you at what you consider your best

Come on now, you can do better than using these cliché "my e-peen is bigger than yours" responses.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:46 am

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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:16 am

clone wrote:
It was "too expensive" before the project even began. Everyone knew that, but the cost was simply not important at that time, the only thing that was important is to show the "capitalist pigs" that "we can also do sciency stuff! And some of it is even better than yours!"
I do not believe the motivation was that simple.

:lol: You may believe in whatever imaginary reality you want to. It doesn't make it into a "fact".

For anyone who actually want to read about facts - I suggest getting a good Russian-English dictionary or a person who can fluently read and translate Russian text and start your own research into Buran program (starting around 1972 year and in particular the research of financial viability and practicality of "reusable spacecraft systems" that was done during that time by various scientific institutes tasked by USSR's Military-Industrial Commission) and the whole USSR's economy and political system during those years.
Then you might actually learn that it was always about this and not the silly nonsense like "improving the well-being of common people through scientific research".
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:22 am

Fear of "the enemy" gaining the upper hand in the race to militarize space was a huge motivator on both sides. That's also one of the reasons things slowed down drastically as the Cold War wound down.
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Re: Russian space shuttle story at ArsTechnica

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:47 am

That's a partial reason, yes. But it was not the major one. Tu-144 was not a military airplane and was never intended for any military purposes and it was also known that it would be economically impractical to use it even before its construction started. Its highly "unfinished" and unreliable state was also known before it was forced to be put into passenger service. All because of what I've said before - "prestige above all else".

just brew it! wrote:That's also one of the reasons things slowed down drastically as the Cold War wound down.

The "I must prove to my (worthless excuse for a human being) neighbor that I am better than him" thing never "slowed down" (too many people were "conditioned" by USSR government for way too long and could not simply abandon this trait in just a few dozen of years), it was just channeled into different means, most of which are on individual level :wink: Did you know that some license plate series are still considered "prestigious" in city like Moscow and can cost huge amount of money (and/or appropriate "friendly relations" with the "right" people in law enforcement agencies) to obtain? I also remember when ICQ chat service was still extremely popular in Russia and many users were willing to pay large amount of money for "short" (6 digit or less) UINs and the large amount of hackers that were trying to "hijack" those "prestigious" UINs from existing users... And even on more global level - I also know how much of "official" money was wasted (and continue to be wasted) on preparation for 2014 Olympic Games in Sochi even though the "quality" of many people's lives in Russia continues to suffer - my grandparents still live in city of Volgograd (former Stalingrad, a historically significant city where the battle that turned the tides of WWII occured) and the current quality of the the road surface of MAJORITY of city roads there is still not significantly better than it was during 1943.

The "cold war" might be officially over but it will continue to exist in the people's heads as long as many people who were "conditioned" during its time continue to live and be in charge of that country :wink:
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