AMD's new proprietary API

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AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:51 pm

Mantle:
http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd- ... mance.html
What do you think? Good? Bad? Does the significant increase in performance worth the extra fragmentation? Will AMD repeat the history of 3dfx's Glide?
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:12 pm

JohnC wrote:Mantle:
http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd- ... mance.html
What do you think? Good? Bad? Does the significant increase in performance worth the extra fragmentation? Will AMD repeat the history of 3dfx's Glide?


If they're using it to do a cross-platform end-run around DirectX, all power to them; if they're trying to pull another PhysX, I hope it chokes and dies.

Either way, if it gets MS' attention, we might just get more performance on the desktop with DirectX optimizations. I'm cool with that too.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:20 pm

Airmantharp wrote: if it gets MS' attention, we might just get more performance on the desktop with DirectX optimizations.

I hope so.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:27 pm

In before platitudes about EA being evil and never buying another game from them followed by a quip about AMD doing software.

I'm all for this if it means I don't need to upgrade my OS to get the latest graphical features. Upgrading to Windows 8 to use the latest DirectX API? Frak that. Having a graphics API which is bound by the hardware you're using rather than the OS makes a lot more sense, I really hope this succeeds and on many platforms.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:45 pm

Isn't it what the OpenGL supposed to achieve (a cross-platform OS-independent API)? Why create extra proprietary API instead? What if Nvidia will decide to create their own and also manage to convince some game developers to use it?
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:53 pm

Put that s**t on Linux and the Steambox is COMPLETE! Good job, AMD, for porting(barely lifted a finger) the console API to the PC.

EDIT: Holy crap I guess I should have bought that HD7950 on sale instead of this GTX 760. FUUUUUUUUU....
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:57 pm

If it's open and cross-platform then great.

It's annoying and kinda sad that the incumbents (OGL and DX) have been sitting around and not getting on this but IF this works AND is open then I'm all for it.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:59 pm

If this API includes physics that will be implemented by developers, plus, plausible advantage of AMD hardware due to consoles might compel me to switch back.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:06 pm

wingless wrote: for porting(barely lifted a finger) the console API to the PC

I do not think it's what they did. Consoles have their own proprietary API's (like for example PS4 has GNMX/GNM) and probably will continue to have them in future generations... AMD just created a new one, specifically for PCs.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:18 pm

Here is more info. It also includes new highly programmable audio engine which can enable developers to implement movie-like sound. This API is very low level which will allow to bypass DirectX/OpenGL. It has 300GB memory bandwidth which puts it on par with Titan which has 288GB.

It looks very good, I wonder what Nvidia has with the upcoming Maxwell architecture. I am going to have a headache what to buy next year.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:31 pm

The new audio API is separate from Mantle, though.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:33 pm

ChronoReverse wrote:If it's open and cross-platform then great.

Theoretically it is. However no other hardware vendor announced the support for it (for obvious reasons) and as far as I know the EA has no plans for porting BF4 (which can use Mantle) to to other than Windows or PS4/XBone platforms. I believe MS can still provide plenty of financial "incentives" to prevent EA from doing that :wink:
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:04 pm

hello everyone,

Here is a slide which provides a little more information about Mantle

Image

I'm also going to share the actual presentation that was used during the live stream from Hawaii in just a moment for you. It includes details such as prices for some of the R7 and R9 GPUs, as well as the BF4 bundle and the True Audio Technology. (I will create a new thread for it) :wink:
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:07 pm

.
Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:12 pm

:lol: Warsam, people can read official PR releases, watch official video presentations and see official slides on AMD's own website and other places, this thread was not intended for PR propaganda or pricing lists...
Last edited by JohnC on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:22 pm

If Mantle is low level API it will probably require more coding and development time. Direct access to the hardware will probably require more responsible coding to prevent crashing/BSODs. Thus far the info is very scant, we need to wait for AMD to reveal its full specs. Personally I am more interested if it can provide superior visuals as opposed to performance. I do not believe that this is some kind of magic bullet, I need to see real game rendered with this API.

I am waiting for Carmack (ID Tech 5), Sweeney (Unreal 4), Crytek and the dudes behind Metro 2003/Last Light 4A Engine to weigh in on this. I was not impressed with Frostbite 3 at all but at least we will be able to compare DX11 and Mantle when BF4 is out.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:32 pm

michael_d wrote:I am waiting for Carmack

:lol: Carmack is into Occulus now (and whatever else will satisfy his fancy next)... All he can say is obvious comments like "herp derp, it has a potential of being good! and someone might not like it!" without going into any particular details.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:43 am

There is nice article about mantle on Anandtech website, people might want to check out.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:12 am

Interesting article, but not many useful info and the author is also guessing about the long-term viability of this API... Guess we'll have to wait for a year or so to see how it'll really turn out.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:28 am

JohnC wrote::lol: Warsam, people can read official PR releases, watch official video presentations and see official slides on AMD's own website and other places, this thread was not intended for PR propaganda or pricing lists...

Umm did you forget that you aren't a mod?
Show a bit of class when a manufacturer's rep bothers to post. :evil:
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:54 am

Fighterpilot wrote:
JohnC wrote::lol: Warsam, people can read official PR releases, watch official video presentations and see official slides on AMD's own website and other places, this thread was not intended for PR propaganda or pricing lists...

Umm did you forget that you aren't a mod?
Show a bit of class when a manufacturer's rep bothers to post. :evil:

Agreed. If you (JohnC) really found it that inappropriate then the right thing for you (JohnC) to do would have been to simply report the post.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:56 am

So now we get not one but TWO totally separate drivers to deal with for new AMD cards? WONDERFUL!
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:10 am

So, it's AMD only. At this point I hope no one else jumps on board- it's a good idea, but only if it can run on any GPU. Trying to lock your competitors out hampers the whole market; just look at PhysX.

Or is this AMD's childish version of 'tit-for-tat'?
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:24 am

Airmantharp wrote:...it's a good idea, but only if it can run on any GPU.

The only reason it is "faster" is precisely because it can't run on any GPU.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:28 am

.
Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:39 am

clone wrote:the title of this thread is flawed, Mantle is an open API, anyone can use it.

Assuming the closer-to-metal architecture matches up with what Nvidia currently produces (or will produce)...which as far as I know couldn't be any further from the truth.

So, in essence, it's closed to AMD hardware even if the API itself is open.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:46 am

clone wrote:the title of this thread is flawed, Mantle is an open API, anyone can use it.


Is there a link or other reference saying that? Would it be possible for Nvidia to write some form of wrapper, libary using the same calls to their hardware, or something similar?

I read somewhere that the news announced would be good for Linux developers. I haven't seen specific about that, but I am guessing this is OS independent based on the low-level nature. Would this not mean, then, games developed using this would be more easily ported to, say, a Steam Machine? Continuing my speculation, and dreaming, perhaps Steam had an idea about this the whole time? The Piston, supposedly a Steam “box,” housed an APU.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:46 am

JohnC wrote::lol: Warsam, people can read official PR releases, watch official video presentations and see official slides on AMD's own website and other places, this thread was not intended for PR propaganda or pricing lists...


Wow. I'm glad I'm not a PR rep... He's not trying to hijack this thread he clearly states that he will create a new more relevant thread for the other information if anyone is interested, what more can you ask?
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:15 pm

michael_d wrote:If Mantle is low level API it will probably require more coding and development time. Direct access to the hardware will probably require more responsible coding to prevent crashing/BSODs.


Actually I had exactly that in mind, and was thinking Mantle probably wouldn't gain much traction because of the extra work involved and those potential pitfalls. Then I realized that developers are probably ALREADY coding for Mantle because of the PS4 and XBone. Does anyone really believe that XBone is going to be using DX? And PS4 will be on OGL? Neither Sony nor Microsoft will want to leave any performance on the table, so the consoles are very likely being coded to a lower level API which I'll bet a beer is Mantle.

So now all AMD has to do is expose Mantle in Windows, and suddenly every game that's also on console is faster when run on their GCN hardware. It's a brilliant move by them, although potentially bad for us in the long run when GCN is out of date. What's low-level now is potentially baggage later on, but I doubt AMD is thinking that far. Right now they just want that performance lead and $$$.
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Re: AMD's new proprietary API

Postposted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:05 pm

clone wrote:
We've been told at the GPU14 Tech Day event that the Mantle API is open, so theoretically Nvidia could purpose the technology in their GPUs. It should also make cross-development between PC and console games a lot easier, and also more incredible for those with a high-performance AMD GPU.


the title of this thread is flawed, Mantle is an open API, anyone can use it.



As I posted in comments, can AMD please define their definition of an open API?

Do they mean "open to other hardware vendors to implement"?
Do they mean "open for others to contribute to the specification"?
Do they mean "open for cross-platform (OS) implementation on GCN hardware"?

If it is truly open, why didn't they follow Apple's lead with openCL? "Here is the initial draft Khronos, run with it and improve it as you see fit, we call it openCTM".

Until they specify what they mean by open I can't put much stock into it being a game changer.
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