So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

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So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:47 pm

This is an XFX 290x, non-overclocked, stock settings, playing BF4. Image is clickable.


Image

You can clearly see that as soon as the card reaches max temperature - it starts its perpetual "throttling" pattern, with clock speeds constantly jumping anywhere between 700-1000 MHz range.
Last edited by JohnC on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:11 pm

Seems to match this front page story:

http://techreport.com/news/25609/report ... ss-samples

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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:55 pm

Only by manually raising the stock fan speed to 50% I can get a "smooth" non-throttling clock speeds. This is a screenshot with fan speed manually raised in driver's settings. Once again, image is clickable.

Image
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:01 pm

Yeah, it looks like the default fan settings is too low. It's only spinning up to 40%? No wonder it's overheating.

Even at 50% it looks like it's better huh? How much louder is it though? I wonder why AMD didn't use 50% instead of 40%
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:04 pm

It's obviously more loud, but not annoyingly so. As to "why AMD did this" - I have no idea... Maybe they thought that "most people won't bother monitoring the real clock speeds but all of them will notice more loud fan" or something like that.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:11 pm

Well they're sure as heck going to notice performance drops...

Sounds like you should look into your case cooling, though. You might be able to give your card a break by keeping air flowing through the case. If you have great throughput in your case, you could also do some soundproofing by filtering anywhere air can sneak in or out, but that's only if you want to reduce system noise, obviously.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:30 pm

My case (Antec P183v2) has a perfect airflow and completely filtered air intake (I taped all the unfiltered holes through which the air can get inside). I clean the air filters often enough (all it takes is a few swipes with vacuum cleaner's hose with a brush attachment - I don't even have to remove the filters). My Titan was doing fine in same case, never throttling so dramatically even with stock fan speed.

Of course, the situation will be worse for people with more poor case airflow and/or when the dust will start to accumulate on the fins of their card's heatsink (which will happen quickly for people not caring about filtering)... This is also why people shouldn't just rely on random sites who do benchmarks on a completely open bench setup :wink: :P
Last edited by JohnC on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:37 pm

Considering it's a blow-out fan type, I wouldn't have suspected his case airflow to be the problem anyway.

AMD simply messed up by setting the max fan speed too low.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:47 pm

ChronoReverse wrote:Considering it's a blow-out fan type, I wouldn't have suspected his case airflow to be the problem anyway.

Actually, improper case airflow can have significant impact on flawed "blower" designs - if you have "negative" air pressure inside the case, the "exhaust" air from such blower will be "fighting" against the exterior air trying to get into the case through the card's bracket.
Fortunately, there is an aftermarket solution already available for it, which does not involve the flawed "blower" type of design and where airflow is not restricted by multiple video ports:
http://www.arctic.ac/us_en/products/coo ... e-iii.html
Unfortunately it requires more $$$ to invest into. Hopefully third-party resellers like Gigabyte and others will also be able to implement their own versions of non-"blower", multi-fan coolers in later models.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:06 pm

So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

It was always labeled as Peak frequency since day one.

complain about the horrid heat numbers that are causing the clock throttling. Your title makes it seem like AMD was false advertising.
What they were really doing was deceiving you with truthful advertising. :D
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:12 pm

danny e. wrote:
So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

It was always labeled as Peak frequency since day one.

complain about the horrid heat numbers that are causing the clock throttling. Your title makes it seem like AMD was false advertising.
What they were really doing was deceiving you with truthful advertising. :D


Yup...

Then again, we knew that this was a possible, if not likely, scenario when the reviews hit. I mean seriously, the card gets a performance boost directly from raising the fan speed!
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:13 pm

Nonetheless, it's still something AMD should address if making it run at full speed requires only bumping the fan from 40% to 50% as JohnC's card required.

It would be best if reporting sites mention this factoid so that AMD would fix it in the next driver release.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:14 pm

danny e. wrote:
So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

It was always labeled as Peak frequency since day one.

So is the "boost" clock frequency (928Mhz) on my EVGA's Titan SC, which also has similar to "Powertune" system. But guess which one of these cards can actually stay at the "peak frequency" during the actual gameplay without any software adjustments? :P I'll tell you even more - my Titan can actually reach over 1GHz clock speed (and stay there during gameplay) without throttling and without manual fan speed adjustments (just by using a temperature limit slider... which, b.t.w, is maxed out by default in AMD's drivers settings) :wink:



Edit: here's also a little fun fact for you. Both Newegg and XFX explicitly list clock speeds at 1000MHz, without "up to" part.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814150675
http://products.xfxforce.com/en-us/Grap ... AMD_Radeon™_R9_290X/R9-290X-ENFC
I guess AMD is ok with their resellers lying to their consumers, even though AMD themselves do not list the exact clock speeds... Which is I guess makes "AMD" an "ok" company in the eyes of their fanbots and paid shills :P
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:54 pm

From your graph the average clock speed seem to be 900mhz.

700mhz would mean the clock would be drawn at the 4.6 square height. I only see this happen twice , what look like .001% of the time.

Its also unclear if those 2 dips to 700mhz are caused by the load being down at that time.

But clearly you average 900mhz during long load.

edit: I'm sure if you lived in Finland and gamed with your window open that you would hit 1ghz all day long :)

Maybe AMD expect everyone to live in super air conditioned homes.. or the fact that they released this in october.. coincidence ? :)
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:03 pm

B.t.w, if Scott will be reading this - here is an interesting idea for future video card evaluations. First of all, test them inside the case (if he doesn't already do this) to simulate real-world usage (using a full-sized tower). Then test them in different cooling configurations - first with "negative pressure" inside the case (few exhaust fans, no intake fans), then with "positive pressure" (intake fans providing more airflow than exhaust fans), then with balanced airflow. Compare results such as throttling and GPU temps using stock coolers. Then try the same with aftermarket, non-blower multi-fan coolers. Would be pretty original and interesting material :wink:
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:10 pm

sschaem wrote:From your graph the average clock speed seem to be 900mhz.
Its also unclear if those 2 dips to 700mhz are caused by the load being down at that time.

I specifically selected the time point with 100% of GPU utilization. Lower GPU utilization drops temperatures and slightly increases clock speeds.

sschaem wrote:edit: I'm sure if you lived in Finland and gamed with your window open that you would hit 1ghz all day long :)

We have a dedicated Samsung "split" AC units in each room in our house. Controlling room temperatures is never an issue and I don't open the window in my PC room (because of multiple issues with doing so).
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:15 pm

If you're having problems with negative pressure just increase the air intake, you can do that with slot covers on the back of the PC or simply getting better fans for intake. You don't need to switch to a recirculating fan.

Speaking of negative air pressure. Have you tried running the card at default settings with the side of the case off? Are you sure you don't have negative air pressure? You said you taped up all the intakes besides the filtered fans... I'm guessing the intakes were part of Antecs design.

The Titan cooler recirculates more air then AMDs does based on the design of the cooler (half the air goes back into the case).

Curiously it almost seems like you're boasting about how awesome your Titan is when compared to the new 290x you just bought...

I don't know why people aren't running Furmark to see what kind of frequency they get with that. Instead they're trying to hodge podge it with a game.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:19 pm

Bensam123 wrote:I don't know why people aren't running Furmark to see what kind of frequency they get with that. Instead they're trying to hodge podge it with a game.


With AMD cards, at least, Furmark is somewhat outdated IIRC. AMD throttles it because running it unchecked has caused their cards to self-destruct in the past :).
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:37 pm

It works fine on my 7870... Running at +20% powertune increases power draw in GPUZ to 14amps (VDDC current in). The only thing that pulls more juice through my card is OCCTPT. Most games for instance pull around 4-7A.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:46 pm

Bensam123 wrote: Are you sure you don't have negative air pressure?

Yes.

Bensam123 wrote:The Titan cooler recirculates more air then AMDs does.

Not really. Since you do not actually own these cards (I own both), using pictures might be more helpful, so here is one. Take a look at this corner:

Image

Do you know why there are multiple holes? Here is a little hint: the amount of ports on these "flagship" card's brackets is VERY restrictive for a proper airflow. Nvidia chose to "balance" it slightly with rear outlet, the AMD does the same using this top front outlet. Both are not enough, however (you can feel air "leaking out" between the card's brackets and fan shroud, as well as near PCIe slot area, on both cards) and both should have had a non-blower coolers by default.

Bensam123 wrote:Curiously it almost seems like you're boasting about how awesome your Titan.

Yea. Is that bad? Liking a better product?

Bensam123 wrote:I don't know why people aren't running Furmark to see what kind of frequency they get with that. Instead they're trying to hodge podge it with a game.

Maybe because some people enjoy playing BF4 instead of Furmark?
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:54 pm

JohnC wrote:
Bensam123 wrote: Are you sure you don't have negative air pressure?
Yes.


If you had to tape anything to 'seal' the case, you have net negative pressure. Are you really, really sure? What modifications have you made to the P183?
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:56 pm

JohnC wrote:
Bensam123 wrote: Are you sure you don't have negative air pressure?
Yes.

Getting negative pressure in a P18X takes effort. Every time I de-fur my P182 all of the fur on the back is sticking out of the case. Same goes for the fur blowing past the DVD drive tabs from inside the case. Damn longhair cats. Only fur inside the case is inside the fine mesh of the top vent fan and that's due solely to the mesh size. Besides, 4 fans in, 2 fans out will not create negative pressure.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:43 pm

Captain Ned wrote: Besides, 4 fans in, 2 fans out will not create negative pressure.

P183 (at least my version) has only 2 120mm exhaust fans. 3 if counting the PSU. If someone will only use "stock" 2 fans (Antec Tricool), especially with switches set to "high", it is easy to create negative pressure :wink: Which, of course, can be easily compensated by switching stock fans to "low" and a couple of intake fans with significantly higher CFM's :wink:

Bensam123 wrote:Blah, blah, blah, Furmark

I actually ran the Furmark for a few minutes. According to MSI's tool, the GPU downclocked even further (to about 723MHz), it was just more linear. Which is, of course, not representative of actual gaming experience (BF4 allows for higher average clock speeds).
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:47 pm

JohnC wrote:Which, of course, can be easily compensated by switching stock fans to "low" and a couple of intake fans with significantly higher CFM's :wink:

Well, my basic rule is that if the case allows for X fans, it gets X fans.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:51 pm

JohnC wrote:My case (Antec P183v2) has a perfect airflow and completely filtered air intake (I taped all the unfiltered holes through which the air can get inside). I clean the air filters often enough (all it takes is a few swipes with vacuum cleaner's hose with a brush attachment - I don't even have to remove the filters). My Titan was doing fine in same case, never throttling so dramatically even with stock fan speed.

Of course, the situation will be worse for people with more poor case airflow and/or when the dust will start to accumulate on the fins of their card's heatsink (which will happen quickly for people not caring about filtering)... This is also why people shouldn't just rely on random sites who do benchmarks on a completely open bench setup :wink: :P

Was just a thought...sounds like you're on top of it :)

I was just suggesting it because *most* system builders (*certainly myself) would not put up quite the effort you did in terms of airflow, therefore crippling their 290X's performance. And, of course, if you couldn't improve airflow any more, you would possibly improve the noise performance despite the helicopter fans.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:10 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
JohnC wrote:Which, of course, can be easily compensated by switching stock fans to "low" and a couple of intake fans with significantly higher CFM's :wink:

Well, my basic rule is that if the case allows for X fans, it gets X fans.


More fans, lower speeds, every time, with positive pressure and good filters. Use blowers on the GPU(s) and an integrated water-cooler on the CPU, and call it good.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:09 pm

Johnc, Tom's has an article where they place an Arctic Extreme III (GTX 480) cooler on a 290X with relative ease and it makes a huge difference. Allows for a nice bump in performance as well, might be something to look into unless you are going for WC.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:13 pm

This nonsense talk about "part of Antec's design", "net negative pressure" and other things that some people apparently know better about MY OWN case than I do is getting really tiring... Here is the last screenshot I will be making for this thread. This is using BF4, at 1080p, "Ultra" settings" with STOCK card settings (no overclocks, no "Uber" BIOS switch position, no fan speed adjustments), WITH THE SIDE DOOR REMOVED from my case. Again, click on it to see the larger version.

Image

The card's backside metal brace (centered around GPU on the back of the card) reaches 83C (according to my Raytek MT6 infrared thermometer) and is extremely hot to the touch. This is WITH THE SIDE DOOR REMOVED from the case. Case is standing FREELY on the FLOOR next to the table, NOT in the closet of any kind. The room temperature is 69F (or 20.5556C).

If you have any further doubts or nonsense suggestions - buy your own card (or ask your AMD contact/employer to supply you one), do your own tests. :roll: I don't get paid for this **** (and I don't want to) and it's hard for me to re-test this stuff over and over due to my physical condition.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:22 pm

The conversation of "You're doing it wrong" stops here.

It's missing the point of this thread and driving it off into pedantic sniping. Not to mention it's just stupid.

This problem has everything to do with the product in question and the QC of the vendors who build that product. If you want to accuse poor overworked laborers of applying too much thermal grease or not tightening screws well enough, have at it, but stop attacking the messenger of this thread.
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Re: So much for 290x's claimed "1GHz"...

Postposted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:38 pm

I still think the dips are from GPU usage. The overall curve seem to show 900+mhz

Anyways, for sure the 290x is throttled. And for sure it does not stay at 1ghz when temp goes up.

Those 2 points cant be denied.

But I think graphing furmark is more reliable to see whats goes under the hood.
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