TR Forums

I had a SB 16 ASP back in the day. Connected a Yamaha waveboard to it and Doom sounded better than ever before. I loved it so much, I kept it all the way to my next upgrade, Terratec SixPack. I wasn't too happy with it and I traded it at some point for a DMX 6 fire. That was the audio revelation of a lifetime. I will never forget the first time I listened to a track through that board, on an amazing set of cans... I bet it would have held its own fabulously even today, had they bothered to release some Win 7 drivers.

At some point, when X-Fi Music came out, I figured I'd "upgrade" and went for that instead. About a week later, I was browsing the forums for a DMX 6-Fire, having already sold my X-Fi

But then, Win 7 came along and I had to give up on my beloved 6-Fire for lack of drivers. I went with on-board for two generations. Had a Realtek 887 and a 892, both on Gigabyte boards. Was a bit surprised at how far on-board sound had come, tbh. The difference in analogue audio between the 892 and the normal X-fi was minimal to my ears.

Then, right when people went nuts with the X-fi Music modding, I found one for like 30 bucks, thoroughly modded. LM 49720 opamps, huge filtering capacitor... Let's just say I rediscovered good, uncompressed music at that point. Worlds better than the original. I still use it to this day and I'm happy with it, but I wouldn't dis on-board audio. It's more than enough for most people out there.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

n00by wrote:

I feel like you are confusing a couple of things there.

Nope. I understand your point perfectly. You don't want to put money towards a dedicated soundcard, and that's historically who develops and supports 3d audio api's. 3d api's don't exist by themselves. You have to have a supporting infrastructure that funds development. This mentality of not paying for what you should be buying, because you have free onboard, is what has destroyed 3d audio. Nobody is supporting it, because there is no incentive to do so.

Question: Are you donating money to OpenAL Soft? Huh? No? Then you're not supporting 3d audio when you use onboard.

This is ridiculous. Why should people who don't need 3D audio pay for other people to have 3D audio? 3D audio was destroyed by Creative's anti-competitive behavior (Aureal, anyone?), the confusion caused by their forking of the OpenAL codebase, and an unwillingness/inability of anybody else to step up to the plate to provide a viable alternative for game developers to rally around.

We've had the CPU horsepower to do it all in software for several years now. The algorithms aren't rocket science. What we need is a stable, open API standard that everyone can implement against. The Open Source community could do it via the open fork of OpenAL; or a game distributor like Valve or game engine developer like Epic could conceivably pull it off; or Microsoft could even do it (though they'd probably wreck things by trying to keep it proprietary). Just throwing money at it isn't going to fix it; if that was the case, the heavy hitters in the industry would've solved this problem already.

just brew it! wrote:

This is ridiculous.

No it's not. This needs to be said, because the "audiophile" cheapskates need to understand exactly what they've done by not buying soundcards.

just brew it! wrote:

Why should people who don't need 3D audio pay for other people to have 3D audio?

Use onboard then. Just don't scapegoat what you've done onto some imaginary software api that doesn't exist because you won't fund it's development.

just brew it! wrote:

3D audio was destroyed by Creative's anti-competitive behavior (Aureal, anyone?)

No it wasn't. Microsoft did it. They're the sole party responsible. Creative had EAX 4-5.0 well after Aureal went under.

just brew it! wrote:

the confusion caused by their forking of the OpenAL codebase,

What confusion? Creative is/was the main contributor to OpenAL. Their version is solely used to implement support of their card's hardware features. You don't need their version if you aren't using their cards.

just brew it! wrote:

and an unwillingness/inability of anybody else to step up to the plate to provide a viable alternative for game developers to rally around.

Because there's no longer money in it ever since Microsoft killed the underlying infrastructure. Don't lie about Creative. The death of Direct Sound 3d was NOT something Creative was responsible for, and it was an open standard with extensions. Sensaura, EAX, and A3d were all extensions of DS3d, and would not have existed without it.

just brew it! wrote:

We've had the CPU horsepower to do it all in software for several years now.

So what? If you won't support the developers, this is all wishful thinking.

just brew it! wrote:

The algorithms aren't rocket science. What we need is a stable, open API standard that everyone can implement against.

No monetary support, No API.

just brew it! wrote:

The Open Source community could do it via the open fork of OpenAL;

It already exists, JBI. Amnesia used it. The problem is that it's not being actively developed, and the new version broke compatibility with the old version. There's all these threads about fixing OpenAL for Amnesia, but it works fine if you just use the older version that was around when Amnesia was first released.

just brew it! wrote:

or a game distributor like Valve or game engine developer like Epic could conceivably pull it off; or Microsoft could even do it

Microsoft is the ONLY ones who can pull it off fairly. It actually NEEDS to come from them, as long as we continue gaming on windows. All they have to do is bring back ds3d, although the original version is too outdated, and it needs to be rewritten.

just brew it! wrote:

(though they'd probably wreck things by trying to keep it proprietary).

Which is exactly what AMD's doing.

just brew it! wrote:

Just throwing money at it isn't going to fix it; if that was the case, the heavy hitters in the industry would've solved this problem already.

Actually, it will. AMD is the heavy hitter, and they are solving this problem. It's just going to be more proprietary junk though. PC gaming needs 3d audio, and apparently this is the only way to implement it, because onboard loving cheapskates won't consider the fact that 3d audio developers have kids they need to feed, and they wonder why 3d audio disappeared. Well, this is why it disappeared. Even if you have a software api, it still needs people to work on it, and you aren't supporting them. Also, all this talk about "CPU horsepower" is bunk. The new consoles have 8 cores, and they use dedicated 3d hardware. So yeah, we probably do still need it to an extent.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

n00by wrote:

Second, AMD is not building a sound card/interface/DAC in to their cards, just a DSP which processes the sound before sending it over to an actual audio device (like your onboard audio solution or the HDMI out on your GPU).

No, Really? (and they do have hdmi output.) The point is, AMD can afford to develop and support this DSP because you bought the video card. Historically, this was the job of the soundcard, until MS killed the 3d audio standard. Now there's no standard. AMD is offering a "solution", but it won't be an open standard available to competitors. Great for AMD owners, horrible for nvidia owners.

The way you phrased your previous post made it sound like you meant the entire audio subsystem versus just a DSP:
"AMD has the right idea in including audio in their cards, because IMO it's the only way to restore 3d audio when the community refuses to pay for dedicated sound cards."

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Nope. I understand your point perfectly. You don't want to put money towards a dedicated soundcard, and that's historically who develops and supports 3d audio api's. 3d api's don't exist by themselves. You have to have a supporting infrastructure that funds development. This mentality of not paying for what you should be buying, because you have free onboard, is what has destroyed 3d audio. Nobody is supporting it, because there is no incentive to do so.

Question: Are you donating money to OpenAL Soft? Huh? No? Then you're not supporting 3d audio when you use onboard.

n00by wrote:

As long as you are still digital (analog too, but not in practice) you can process the audio anywhere you like for effects, whether it be through a DSP or a CPU, before sending it over to your audio device of choice.

Translation: I don't want to pay for a dedicated sound card, or support 3d audio. I only care to stay with status quo, because it saves me $50, which is absolutely nothing compared to a R290 / 780. You're basically arguing for the use of integrated graphics to play games here. Yeah, back in the day you could play quake2 in software mode. Let's return to that, because that's exactly what we've done here with audio.

n00by wrote:

Personally, I don't like the way of a dedicated DSP. I would much rather have it done through the CPU (at least 2 core are idle most of the time) or GPGPU.

And who's going to pay for the development of this audio api, huh? OpenAL Soft is just bursting with your donation money right? Yeah, I thought so. This is the problem. Pay for a sound card, whether or not you use analog, because you're also funding the development of drivers and software associated with said card.

I don't know why you are making these allegations against me, so let's clear that up first. I do own a dedicated audio device, I wouldn't call it a sound card and officially the category is a sound interface.
My particular device is a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, which has excellent sound quality, high quality mic pre-amps, balanced outputs etc. but not a single "gamer" feature such as 3d audio or the like.
And before I had this device I used to use a Creative Audigy 4 Pro sound card, which I had to unfortunately stop using once I started using Windows 7 because of driver issues (which is why I used onboard audio for a while there)

Also how did interpret my post as advocating integrated graphics (or anything graphics related in general)? While yes, I do think that integrated graphics have their place (not every system needs a lot of graphics power), I don't feel like this has a place in this discussion.
But just for the record, I run 2 GTX 670's 4GB in SLI in my main system.

Secondly, I don't want a dedicated hardware implementation of "3d audio" for a variety of reasons, and I think that Just Brew It! hit the nail on the head with his post.

There's a couple of more issues in your post, like claiming that I should buy a sound card to supposedly support a "3d audio api" even though I would have no use for it (why should I pay for something you want?).
And also making it sound like integrated audio solutions are free, and even more so that throwing a bunch of money at this would fix the problem. Again, I think that Just Brew It! made the right points here.

I hope you can pick your arguments more carefully next time instead of forcing your believes upon someone else, and a friendlier tone would go a long way.

n00by wrote:

I don't know why you are making these allegations against me, so let's clear that up first. I do own a dedicated audio device, I wouldn't call it a sound card and officially the category is a sound interface.
My particular device is a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, which has excellent sound quality, high quality mic pre-amps, balanced outputs etc. but not a single "gamer" feature such as 3d audio or the like.

Wow, I love the hypocrisy compared to your earlier post. "I don't like the way of a dedicated DSP." But you use a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. Nice. Well, hey. You don't need that Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, because you can just do it all in software/onboard. Right?

n00by wrote:

And before I had this device I used to use a Creative Audigy 4 Pro sound card, which I had to unfortunately stop using once I started using Windows 7 because of driver issues (which is why I used onboard audio for a while there)

AFAIK, the drivers were updated and work fine now. Either way, you should understand that you don't get the same features from onboard that you got with your Audigy/Focusrite. Onboard is only good if you want basic audio playback. It's not an answer for gaming, professional editing, or quality analog out.

n00by wrote:

Also how did interpret my post as advocating integrated graphics (or anything graphics related in general)? While yes, I do think that integrated graphics have their place (not every system needs a lot of graphics power), I don't feel like this has a place in this discussion.
But just for the record, I run 2 GTX 670's 4GB in SLI in my main system.

It was an analogy, not an interpretation. Similar concepts. You obviously can't game with integrated graphics, and you obviously can't get 3d gaming audio from onboard audio. It's nice to know you understand dedicated graphics cards are necessary for gaming on the pc, if only that logic would transfer over to sound cards.

n00by wrote:

Secondly, I don't want a dedicated hardware implementation of "3d audio" for a variety of reasons,

That's the only way it's going to exit, outside of a buggy OpenAL Soft that nobody uses.

n00by wrote:

and I think that Just Brew It! hit the nail on the head with his post.

I don't.

n00by wrote:

There's a couple of more issues in your post, like claiming that I should buy a sound card to supposedly support a "3d audio api" even though I would have no use for it (why should I pay for something you want?).
And also making it sound like integrated audio solutions are free, and even more so that throwing a bunch of money at this would fix the problem.

Then don't. It's nice to know that you have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and 2 GTX 670's 4GB in SLI though. Pardon me if I think you're a little off in not wanting a dedicated 3d soundcard for gaming, which you obviously do with your 2 GTX 670's 4GB in SLI, which won't be compatible with AMD's TrueAudio.

n00by wrote:

Again, I think that Just Brew It! made the right points here.

Nope.

n00by wrote:

I hope you can pick your arguments more carefully next time instead of forcing your believes upon someone else, and a friendlier tone would go a long way.

If you don't want to support 3d audio fine. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Just understand that your non-participation is why we don't have 3d audio on the PC. Whether it's a video card, or sound card, there has to be an organization behind a 3d api, or we won't get a 3d api. It doesn't just conjure itself out of thin air. That's the only issue I have with onboard supporters. You can't get something for nothing.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

3D audio was destroyed by Creative's anti-competitive behavior (Aureal, anyone?)

No it wasn't. Microsoft did it. They're the sole party responsible. Creative had EAX 4-5.0 well after Aureal went under.

I call BS.

Aureal died because Creative sued them for patent infringement. Aureal actually won the case, but the legal costs bankrupted them. Creative then acquired Aureal's IP in the ensuing asset sale. This effectively killed competition in the 3D audio market. Microsoft was just the nail in the coffin; 3D audio on the PC was already stagnating because Creative had no incentive to move it forward, since they had no competition.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

and an unwillingness/inability of anybody else to step up to the plate to provide a viable alternative for game developers to rally around.

Because there's no longer money in it ever since Microsoft killed the underlying infrastructure.

If there's no longer money in it, doesn't that imply that people aren't willing to pay for decent 3D audio?

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Don't lie about Creative. The death of Direct Sound 3d was NOT something Creative was responsible for,

No, they weren't directly responsible; but see above. Creative has a lot of blood on their hands.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

and it was an open standard with extensions. Sensaura, EAX, and A3d were all extensions of DS3d, and would not have existed without it.

No, Sensaura was not an open standard; it was owned and licensed by Sensaura. Creative bought Sensaura, and shut them down. Starting to see a pattern here?

Creative killed off all of the competition, then was unable to adapt quickly enough to Microsoft's game-changing decision regarding the future direction of the audio stack. It's like monoculture farming, or an endangered species with no variation in its gene pool. If all those other companies Creative killed off had still been around, there might have been someone else left to push an alternative 3D API.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

n00by wrote:

I don't know why you are making these allegations against me, so let's clear that up first. I do own a dedicated audio device, I wouldn't call it a sound card and officially the category is a sound interface.
My particular device is a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, which has excellent sound quality, high quality mic pre-amps, balanced outputs etc. but not a single "gamer" feature such as 3d audio or the like.

Wow, I love the hypocrisy compared to your earlier post. "I don't like the way of a dedicated DSP." But you use a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. Nice. Well, hey. You don't need that Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, because you can just do it all in software/onboard. Right?

The Focusrite is an external DAC/ADC, not a DSP.

just brew it! wrote:

I call BS.

So do I.

just brew it! wrote:

Aureal died because Creative sued them for patent infringement. Aureal actually won the case, but the legal costs bankrupted them. Creative then acquired Aureal's IP in the ensuing asset sale. This effectively killed competition in the 3D audio market. Microsoft was just the nail in the coffin; 3D audio on the PC was already stagnating because Creative had no incentive to move it forward, since they had no competition.

I know what happened. Aureal should have counter sued for damages. They sold because it was the easy way out, and they didn't have to do it. 3dfx was the same, as rampage would have turned their losses around. Aureal never had perfect drivers, or a proper soundcard. Quad surround was an abomination that should have never existed. Creative was winning regardless, as they had better features and drivers. I liked aureal better, but I don't think aureal could have competed long term regardless of the lawsuit. Creative probably did think there was patent infringement, as they actually held a patent on Carmack's reverse. I don't think the Aureal lawsuit was black and white, but it probably was over something generic and trivial, which is why they lost.

Creative was not stagnating the market. During Aureal, they had the SB Live. Afterward, they had the Audigy series and EAX4. The X-FI was a completely new chip from the ground up, was true 24-bit, and had dedicated memory for EAX 5. Stagnating? HA! It was only stagnating if you hadn't bought a new card since 2000. The only thing you're right about is Microsoft, and Creative might have avoided some of the fallout if they had released Alchemy sooner, and enforced OpenAL use for all future titles.

just brew it! wrote:

If there's no longer money in it, doesn't that imply that people aren't willing to pay for decent 3D audio?

Absolutely not. People still buy soundcards for analog quality. The issue is that there is NO 3d audio api standard. Microsoft killed it, and enforced it's death with a software mode replacement. This was good for onboard and digital out, but completely killed the 3d market. Completely. Nothing to do with Creative. People mention the Terratec DMX 6 Fire, and that was the last alternative card to support 3d, because 3d no longer existed from Vista forward. Once 3d was out of the picture, there's been no point in buying a dedicated card, when you can just cheap out with onboard. If a 3d api standard came back, then there absolutely would be money in it. The problem is nobody wants to create this standard. AMD could create a soundcard market if TrueAudio was open, but I doubt that.

just brew it! wrote:

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Don't lie about Creative. The death of Direct Sound 3d was NOT something Creative was responsible for,

No, they weren't directly responsible; but see above. Creative has a lot of blood on their hands.

Sure, I'm not a history revisionist. I use their cards regardless, because they're the best gaming card with decent drivers available in the market.

just brew it! wrote:

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

and it was an open standard with extensions. Sensaura, EAX, and A3d were all extensions of DS3d, and would not have existed without it.

No, Sensaura was not an open standard; it was owned and licensed by Sensaura. Creative bought Sensaura, and shut them down. Starting to see a pattern here?

LOL. I am seeing a pattern. I said DS3d was an open stanard, not Sensaura. Sensaura was an extension to ds3d, and their features were integrated into Creative's software suit. That would be the elevation filter and macro fx features in creative's control panel. Also, Sensaura didn't have to sell, and there was no lawsuit. They sold because they wanted to. The only company that can compete with Creative is a company that has a pair. No sense crying over spilt milk.

The Focusrite is an external DAC/ADC, not a DSP.

Right. They both have features/hardware you don't get with onboard. Get it? Onboard is not a full scenario use device, it's a basic features backup until you get a real soundcard, and you don't get 3d audio out of it.

just brew it! wrote:

Creative killed off all of the competition, then was unable to adapt quickly enough to Microsoft's game-changing decision regarding the future direction of the audio stack. It's like monoculture farming, or an endangered species with no variation in its gene pool. If all those other companies Creative killed off had still been around, there might have been someone else left to push an alternative 3D API.

LOL. That's some logic. DS3D WAS the 3D API, and you think someone else could have pushed an alternative? You're tripping. Creative tried to push OpenAL, which was open source, and look where that went. Nowhere. AMD might have a shot, but only because they're adding 3d processing on top of software audio with TrueAudio. It actually sounds like AMD is mimicking the old ds3d extension feature, but doing so by completely bypassing Microsoft's api for the effects. Good for them. That's probably the only way you can implement 3d audio in games without massively increasing development costs. Creative's probably kicking themselves for not doing it like this, even though OpenAL is cross platform and open to other hardware. AMD's got this in the bag with their console wins. I see a lot of console ports supporting TrueAudio. Nvidia users are screwed though. YAY...

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

The Focusrite is an external DAC/ADC, not a DSP.

Right.

Well, you were slamming the previous poster as hypocritical because he said he didn't like DAC-based effects, and yet bought the Focusrite. The distinction matters in this context. I don't see how he was being hypocritical at all, he bought the product that suited his needs.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

They both have features/hardware you don't get with onboard. Get it? Onboard is not a full scenario use device, it's a basic features backup until you get a real soundcard, and you don't get 3d audio out of it.

Not the same thing. Audiophile quality DACs are something you can only get by ponying up the cash for better hardware.

Why do you keep insisting on equating discrete cards with 3D audio? Discrete and 3D are orthogonal issues now. If you want decent 3D, maybe you ought to lobby the game developers to get their act together instead of whining about how MS and consumers who don't care about 3D audio killed off 3D audio.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

LOL. That's some logic. DS3D WAS the 3D API, and you think someone else could have pushed an alternative? You're tripping. Creative tried to push OpenAL, which was open source, and look where that went.

It went nowhere in part because they took it proprietary with the 1.1 release. Yet another strike against Creative...

just brew it! wrote:

It went nowhere in part because they took it proprietary with the 1.1 release. Yet another strike against Creative...

Where are you getting this? OpenAL Soft isn't proprietary. Creative ported EAX to OpenAL. EAX is what's proprietary, not OpenAL Soft. Stop making stuff up.

I don't see how he was being hypocritical at all, he bought the product that suited his needs.

If your needs entail 3d audio in games, you aren't going to get it via onboard. He bought his Focusrite, so obviously it provided him with a feature that didn't exist with onboard. That's my point. You buy those features, they don't come free. When people stopped paying money to support 3d audio, nobody cared to develop it further, because it wasn't profitable. Right now, only companies already heavily invested in the field will consider developing a new audio api, and if it isn't open, it's going to suck for say, everyone not using an amd card. Oh, and it is funny that a person would spend money on SLI, but not a 3d sound card.

Audiophile quality DACs are something you can only get by ponying up the cash for better hardware.

DACs don't matter if you're using digital out. You can just spend the money on external speakers. Digital speakers don't support gaming api's though.

Why do you keep insisting on equating discrete cards with 3D audio? Discrete and 3D are orthogonal issues now. If you want decent 3D, maybe you ought to lobby the game developers to get their act together instead of whining about how MS and consumers who don't care about 3D audio killed off 3D audio.

Wow, is this stupid. Microsoft is the only one who can fix 3d audio. You need a set standard, and nobody else can do it. Yes, I know you can get software 3d api's. Guess what? They COST MONEY. Just buy a damn gaming sound card.

Case in point:
£30.00
http://www.blueripplesound.com/products/rapture-3d-user
$28.99 after $10.00 rebate card (Xonar)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829132052

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

It went nowhere in part because they took it proprietary with the 1.1 release. Yet another strike against Creative...

Where are you getting this? OpenAL Soft isn't proprietary. Creative ported EAX to OpenAL. EAX is what's proprietary, not OpenAL Soft. Stop making stuff up.

Creative took their version closed-source with v1.1 (released around 2005 or so). OpenAL Soft took the original Loki reference implementation and have continued to update it. Forking the API into two divergent branches is not a good way to promote widespread adoption.

just brew it! wrote:

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

It went nowhere in part because they took it proprietary with the 1.1 release. Yet another strike against Creative...

Where are you getting this? OpenAL Soft isn't proprietary. Creative ported EAX to OpenAL. EAX is what's proprietary, not OpenAL Soft. Stop making stuff up.

Creative took their version closed-source with v1.1 (released around 2005 or so). OpenAL Soft took the original Loki reference implementation and have continued to update it. Forking the API into two divergent branches is not a good way to promote widespread adoption.

Yeah, I get that, but Creative just ported EAX to OpenAL. You don't get free EAX, you PAY for EAX by buying a Creative soundcard. OpenAL Soft is available as a software alternative, but it isn't that stable. See Amnesia. That's what happens when you don't fund development, and you try to get a free lunch. Doesn't turn out too well.
FWIW, you can buy Creative's software now:
http://us.store.creative.com/Sound-Blas ... WMCJAS.htm
Now how many onboard users are going to bother to do that? I think very few, because this is the free lunch crowd. It doesn't matter if a software implementation exists, a good one will always cost money, and cheapskates just don't want to spend the money. I'd rather just buy the card that comes with the software, and get higher performance and overall sound quality, but hey, that's me. Common Sense isn't for everyone.

Anybody here using a Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 rev. 4? I just got one because my MSI 990FXA-GD65 suddenly started to go wonky and died last week, so I had to go out and grab a new 990FX board. I got this Gigabyte board because it seems to be a very good board. Comes with a Realtek ALC889 codec too. I think it doesn't sound as good as my X-Fi but it sounds good enough that I just tucked the X-Fi away. Probably better than the MSI's ALC892 even in listening tests alone (of course I could just be experiencing the placebo effect knowing full well that the 889 has better SNR specs). I try to stick with onboard if I can for whatever reason. So, if anybody also has this board and is using the HD Audio, what do you think?

Oh, it comes with Dolby Home Theater (I think it's a.k.a. Dolby PCEE) as well, but I'm not sure if this is just a download away at the Dolby website. Nonetheless, Gigabyte seems to have bundled a solid software package with this board.

Pretty curious about something ronch. If you have the soundcard already, why not use it? I mean, its not like your out to buy something new. And its already paid for. So....

ChangWang, I don't know why I appreciate onboard audio more either. Perhaps it's because I'm amazed at how such a cheaper and smaller solution manages to come pretty close to proper sound cards. Ok, maybe not that close, but I grew up with Sound Blaster Pros and Audigys that cost real money back then and seeing how onboard audio that's practically free manages to provide good sound pleases me. Not all onboard audio implementations are equal, of course, but I think the ALC889 is quite acceptable compared to some codecs I've had before. I bought the X-fi 5 years ago because my IDT codec didn't sound so good (see the first post on this thread).

I noticed mention of Carmack's Reverse and remembered this story on TR. At the time I was very much anti Creative labs due to long running driver issues and their proclivity to patent audio algorithms. I have owned a number of Creative cards and have very much soured to the company.

Now I use an Asus Xonar DG for better or worse. It has been my most trouble free sound card to date, and I am in no hurry to update it. It's outputting analog to my old setreo but it sounds so much sweeter than the Realtek onboard.