Personal computing discussed
Moderators: renee, David, Thresher
bthylafh wrote:So you're upset with Apple even though you refused to take the Apple tech's advice
Welch wrote:Take Volvo for instance.... they make X number of cars for each continent or country each year and that's it, and charge more for those vehicles. But with that you get quality and personal service unlike any other because they aren't over burdened trying to keep millions of consumers happy at the same time. They can focus on just making the best damn car within a certain price range and meeting that niche. Apple use to have a similar philosophy but not anymore.
Mo' customers mo' problems.
bthylafh wrote:So you're upset with Apple even though you refused to take the Apple tech's advice, and the root of the problem is that you forgot your password?
PROTIP: Use a password manager next time such as 1Password or LastPass.
Scrotos wrote:No, he is upset that apple didn't keep copies of his keys so they could break the encryption for him any time he wanted.
Waco wrote:bthylafh wrote:So you're upset with Apple even though you refused to take the Apple tech's advice
Are you really defending the "crack it yourself" or "just wipe your phone" advice?
FireGryphon wrote:
Nope. Apple should have some kind of password recovery, like every other consumer product that requires a password.
As it stands, Apple's product allows the user to inadvertently break functionality without providing a way to fix it.
A third party hack is not an Apple fix, it's a hack.
Deanjo wrote:Waco wrote:bthylafh wrote:So you're upset with Apple even though you refused to take the Apple tech's advice
Are you really defending the "crack it yourself" or "just wipe your phone" advice?
Yup, I'd defend it too. He forgot his password, he did not take precautions to ensure that he had that password available later. What was the Apple person supposed to do? Remember his password or crack it for him?
What has happened here I suspect that he has apps purchased on his phone that were purchased or downloaded on more then one iTunes account. When iTunes tries to back it up, it is trying to back it with the proper iTunes account. I have a US and Canadian iTunes account (some apps are only available from the Canadian store, others exclusive to the US Store). When I back up my devices, and comes to a purchase that was not purchased under the account I am currently logged in as, it will prompt for the other account log in.
Deanjo wrote:FireGryphon wrote:
Nope. Apple should have some kind of password recovery, like every other consumer product that requires a password.
They do.
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht5624
As it stands, Apple's product allows the user to inadvertently break functionality without providing a way to fix it.
Apple can't be expected to fix your memory.
A third party hack is not an Apple fix, it's a hack.
The fix is to wipe the phone since you cannot remember the password. They offered you an alternative solution that may work should you want to try on your own. They can't be expected to just take your word that you are [email protected].
FireGryphon wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but every other service I have offers password recovery. Is it that far off to be puzzled when this service doesn't?
For the iTunes account, this is a single account, nothing fancy here. I'm happy to take suggestions, since three Apple store reps all told me the only way to turn off the feature was resetting the device.
Welch wrote:With that large price downshift and pushing to make it a product for the masses (which it wasn't originally) your going to have quality differences.
Welch wrote:Take Volvo for instance
Welch wrote:Mo' customers mo' problems.
Synchromesh wrote:Welch wrote:Take Volvo for instance.... they make X number of cars for each continent or country each year and that's it, and charge more for those vehicles. But with that you get quality and personal service unlike any other because they aren't over burdened trying to keep millions of consumers happy at the same time. They can focus on just making the best damn car within a certain price range and meeting that niche. Apple use to have a similar philosophy but not anymore.
Mo' customers mo' problems.
Actually, that's a pretty bad analogy. Today's Volvos are not nearly as good and tanklike as the 240s and 740s of yore. We can thank Ford for that. New cars are filled with gizmos and aren't very reliable much like their German counterparts. I recall a few years back asking my mechanic's advice on purchasing a used S40 T5. His answer was a prompt "stay away, far far away". So I'd say they're far from making the "best damn car within certain price range" at this point.
FireGryphon wrote:Nope. Apple should have some kind of password recovery, like every other consumer product that requires a password.
You've taken a software/user glitch and magically extended it into a strange rant about hardware quality/price/target audience. Well done.
FireGryphon wrote:Nope. Apple should have some kind of password recovery, like every other consumer product that requires a password.
bthylafh wrote:FireGryphon wrote:Nope. Apple should have some kind of password recovery, like every other consumer product that requires a password.
NO. NO NO NO. If Apple can recover your forgotten password, then that password is stored insecurely and so can someone else. See this story for what can happen if Apple (or in this case Adobe) is stupid enough to do this:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11 ... -crackers/
You're mad at Apple because of your own ignorance and forgetfulness.
Welch wrote:Now that the Android eco-system has surpassed the iOS on many levels
Welch wrote:and is a direct competitor,
Deanjo wrote:What router offers a password recovery? None, you reset and start over.
If you forgot your encrypted backup password that is really your fault. You were also offered an option of saving that password in your keychain. If you don't remember it or select save in keychain then you really can't blame Apple for it.
FireGryphon wrote:You've taken a software/user glitch and magically extended it into a strange rant about hardware quality/price/target audience. Well done.
Thanks! I wouldn't think twice if this happened on my Windows computer, but it's surprising and disappointing to see Apple products -- that are traditionally user-proof -- succumb to them.
FireGryphon wrote:bthylafh wrote:FireGryphon wrote:Nope. Apple should have some kind of password recovery, like every other consumer product that requires a password.
NO. NO NO NO. If Apple can recover your forgotten password, then that password is stored insecurely and so can someone else. See this story for what can happen if Apple (or in this case Adobe) is stupid enough to do this:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11 ... -crackers/
You're mad at Apple because of your own ignorance and forgetfulness.
Um... if you forget your bank's login info, you can recover it. That's much more important than an iPhone backup, and it has a mechanism built in for recovery.
In any case, the encryption backup isn't secret at all -- anyone with access to the device and a free, legally-obtainable third party Windows program can recover the encrypted password.
I am well aware that I can recover it. I'm just shocked that Apple doesn't provide an official, user-friendly way to do it, and I must instead use a third party program. That's just sloppy.
bthylafh wrote:Did you try deleting the iTunes backup and resetting your Apple account password from a different device? At this point your data is gone unless you swallow your pride (and it is simply pride) and use that third-party program to crack the backup's password.
Your expectation that Apple will make their software completely user-proof is ludicrous. I'm no Apple fan, but there's only so much you can do to balance the need for security and ease of use. If your private information was compromised because Apple did the things you expect (reversible password) you'd throw a fit about that too.
FireGryphon wrote:Routers aren't in the same category of consumer goods as phones are. At any rate, as in my response in the above post, the password isn't gone forever -- it's clearly so poorly encrypted that a free, legally-obtainable third party program can recover it. My disappointment lies in the fact that Apple doesn't provide an official, user-friendly way to get it.
bthylafh wrote:You're being completely unreasonable. Have you ever done any software development? You clearly don't have any understanding of computer security or encryption.
Deanjo wrote:FireGryphon wrote:What is this program they recommend? I'd be very surprised it can hack AES-256bit encryption. Chances are that it tries to brute force with a word list and if you used any remotely secure password, chances are you won't be able to get anywhere.
FireGryphon wrote:My old backup is not the issue, it's that iTunes won't let me backup my new iPhone at all until I enter the encrypted password.
FireGryphon wrote:1. The password is easily accessible with a third party program, so it's clearly not a tradeoff for more security
FireGryphon wrote:Actually, I've done both regular software development and encryption as a specialty, but as a consumer it's not my place to worry about either of those.
iPhone OS Enterprise Deployment Guide wrote:Device backups can be stored in encrypted format by selecting the Encrypt iPhone Backup option in the device summary pane of iTunes. Files are encrypted using AES128 with a 256-bit key
FireGryphon wrote:I don't remember offhand, as I don't intend to use it, so didn't write it down. It will be inconvenient to manually backup things from my phone, but it makes me more comfortable than running such a program from Download.com.
FireGryphon wrote:2. Realistically nothing will be completely user-proof, but this seems like something simple enough that in the Apple world, it should be.
My old backup is not the issue, it's that iTunes won't let me backup my new iPhone at all until I enter the encrypted password. I'm not losing too much without access to my old backup, and there isn't anything on my iPhone that I'd need to backup that I can't periodically transfer off manually, so I'm not especially angry or upset. I'm just plain disappointed that such a simple thing can go so easily awry on an Apple product.