Personal computing discussed
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Hz so good wrote:I spotted an ad for a Gigabyte G1.Sniper 5 Motherboard.
Hz so good wrote:
1) The Creative Sound Core3D ASIC with "Gold Plated Shielding". Firstly, does gold plating that chip do any good, or is this like gold Monster Audio cables? Secondly, is the Sound Core3D actually worth a damn?
2) Audio Noise Guard with Path Lighting - I'll let gigabyte explain this "...G1-Killer motherboards feature an audio noise guard that essentially separates the board’s sensitive analog audio components from potential noise pollution at the PCB level. LED trace path lighting Illuminates to show the separation of the PCB layers". Sure, it looks really neat, and all, but does it actually do any good?
3) gold plated audio and HDMI connectors - Monster Cables, anyone?
4) Gaming Headphone Amplifier (Front Headphone)
"Specially designed for gamers, GIGABYTE G1-Killer motherboards utilize a high-capacity amplifier which is able to drive 600Ω loads, giving gamers a fuller range of dynamic sound with crisper details and less distortion when using high quality professional headphones." I have no idea how powerful a 600 Ohm load is, in audio terms, but that sounds badass!
5) Swappable OP-AMPs. Sounds good on paper.
Does something like this sound like it would have great audio, or should I stick with getting an EMI shielded Soundblaster or something?
chµck wrote:No. From most conductive on down, it's Ag, Cu, Au, Al...3) Gold has lower resistance than copper.
chuck wrote:Yes. Also, because gold is malleable, it squishes to make a good high-area connection.It's probably just good for tarnish resistance.
chµck wrote:1) Different metals/alloys reject different emi/rf frequency noise. I don't know how well gold works for this. I know that mu-metal is really good though.
I don't know what mu-metal is, but certain agencies embed a fine copper mesh into windows to create giant faraday cage, so what advantage to gold plating an ASIC give, short of "Bling Effect"Oh, OK. That makes sense.2) I think what this is is just isolation of the DAC from the rest of the system, which protects against system noise.Awesome!The LEDs definitely make the audio better and your computer faster.That's wrong. Copper is way better than Gold.3) Gold has lower resistance than copper/aluminum/tin, which makes it better for connectors. I doubt most people would hear a difference, so it's probably just good for tarnish resistance.
I dunno. I was just thinking that 600Ohms right into my heads holes sounded neat.4) Unless they mean that the amp output is buffered, then they probably just mean that the opamps they give have high enough output current to drive 600 ohm headphones. But then again, any amp can drive 600 ohm headphones, but some do so better than others.5) I always thought it was generally frowned upon to swap out opamps willy nilly, since some are designed for high gain (>5) and some are stable at unity gain while others aren't.
If you check out their "premium OP-AMP upgrade kit", it's rather silly. Each of the 3 are better suited to certain types of music, so it seems like it would be a pain, if you liked a wide range of music. I do like the cheap IC puller, straight out of a bargain bin A+ course tool kit. So they've got that going for them...That said, I decided to just build myself a Gamma2 and be done with computer soundcard nonsense until I felt like spending >$1k on a new DAC.
LASR wrote:If you want quality audio, invest in a USB DAC and headphone amp combo. I personally have the entry level Schiit stack.
http://schiit.com/products
http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-SCH-07-Mag ... B00CICPMA6
http://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital- ... B00CICPN0K
I hit up some 24/96 FLAC tracks, and it is soundgasm with my ATH-M50. The entire setup including the cans cost me ~$300.
Don't fall for the gold plated jargon jumble bull.
Hz so good wrote:That said, I decided to just build myself a Gamma2 and be done with computer soundcard nonsense until I felt like spending >$1k on a new DAC.
What's that? I'd be content with just a good 2.1 system, and nice rich audio in the ~$200 range. Your kit sounds like my audiophile brother-in-law. 10K DAC, no lie. He has two insane speakers, and each one has an amp so heavy that it's bowed the hardwood floor.
LASR wrote:If you want quality audio, invest in a USB DAC and headphone amp combo. I personally have the entry level Schiit stack.
http://schiit.com/products
http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-SCH-07-Mag ... B00CICPMA6
http://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital- ... B00CICPN0K
I hit up some 24/96 FLAC tracks, and it is soundgasm with my ATH-M50. The entire setup including the cans cost me ~$300.
Don't fall for the gold plated jargon jumble bull.
keltor wrote:The reason you haven't heard about PC audio much is it became a solved problem about that time and then no one cared except for those people who somehow think there's something wrong or read too much Audiophile sites/magazines.
keltor wrote:The reason you haven't heard about PC audio much is it became a solved problem about that time and then no one cared except for those people who somehow think there's something wrong or read too much Audiophile sites/magazines.
Hz so good wrote:With that said, I spotted an ad for a Gigabyte G1.Sniper 5 Motherboard the other day, and it had a few audio related features that caught my eyes, and raised a lot of questions I hope you folks can answer.
1) The Creative Sound Core3D ASIC with "Gold Plated Shielding". Firstly, does gold plating that chip do any good, or is this like gold Monster Audio cables? Secondly, is the Sound Core3D actually worth a damn?
2) Audio Noise Guard with Path Lighting - I'll let gigabyte explain this "...G1-Killer motherboards feature an audio noise guard that essentially separates the board’s sensitive analog audio components from potential noise pollution at the PCB level. LED trace path lighting Illuminates to show the separation of the PCB layers". Sure, it looks really neat, and all, but does it actually do any good?
3) gold plated audio and HDMI connectors - Monster Cables, anyone?
4) Gaming Headphone Amplifier (Front Headphone)
"Specially designed for gamers, GIGABYTE G1-Killer motherboards utilize a high-capacity amplifier which is able to drive 600Ω loads, giving gamers a fuller range of dynamic sound with crisper details and less distortion when using high quality professional headphones." I have no idea how powerful a 600 Ohm load is, in audio terms, but that sounds badass!
According to the TR review, the different op-amps sound different, but none make it as good as the Xonar. I suppose if swapping op-amps is fun for you, you would enjoy tinkering with the the board, but then, you could swap op-amps on a discrete sound card, or nearly any USB audio device, and get better sound to boot.5) Swappable OP-AMPs. Sounds good on paper.
Does something like this sound like it would have great audio, or should I stick with getting an EMI shielded Soundblaster or something?
JustAnEngineer wrote:I believe that Creative's sound cards are better than those from Asus.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829102054
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829102050
just brew it! wrote:1. Gold is one of the best electrical conductors, but copper and silver are still better. The advantage of gold is that it does not tarnish. I do not think gold plating makes any difference from a shielding perspective, since a microscopic layer of tarnish will not affect the shielding properties. A simple copper shield would likely be just as effective, if not better.
2. The actual electrical isolation, if done properly, is worthwhile. Careful component selection and PCB design should allow onboard to perform nearly as well as a discrete soundcard. The LEDs, OTOH, are totally pointless.
3. There *is* a point to gold plated connectors. Connectors made from other materials will eventually tarnish (see my explanation for #1). Tarnished connectors potentially add resistance (reducing signal levels), and/or act as a crude diode (introducing significant distortion, or even causing the audio path to inadvertently pick up nearby radio broadcasts).
4. Only really matters if you happen to have 600 ohm headphones. I was under the impression that most headphones are 32 or 250 (someone with more of an audio background can correct me if this is wrong). Furthermore, unless the boost feature is user selectable, you may find that it tends to over-drive (or even damage) normal headphones unless you set the volume very low.
5. Swappable op amps has been a feature of many "high end" soundcards for a few years, but I'm not convinced it is a net win. Swappable op amps means the op amps must be socketed instead of soldered directly to the PCB. Use of a socket means additional mechanical contacts, which have their own issues (see #3... I've never seen an op amp with gold plated pins). Furthermore, the contacts of the socket itself, and the larger pins of the socket-compatible op amp create additional opportunities for pickup of unwanted EMI since they are effectively tiny antennae.
keltor wrote:1/3. Unless you live by the ocean and keep the doors/windows open, in reality there's no need for anything other than nickel - it's not like under any normal situation nickel will tarnish.
keltor wrote:2. The audio circuits will all be isolated by the DAC/Codec IC, how could they not be? Power is the main issue and it's not like there's whole lot of audio that takes external power (which funny enough are generally dirtier than computer power supplies.)
chµck wrote:Hz so good wrote:That said, I decided to just build myself a Gamma2 and be done with computer soundcard nonsense until I felt like spending >$1k on a new DAC.
What's that? I'd be content with just a good 2.1 system, and nice rich audio in the ~$200 range. Your kit sounds like my audiophile brother-in-law. 10K DAC, no lie. He has two insane speakers, and each one has an amp so heavy that it's bowed the hardwood floor.
It's a DIY DAC that is on par with DACs in the $1000+ range. It can be built for about $200 in parts, or more if you want a better power supply or more boutique parts.
http://www.amb.org/audio/gamma2/
I think I wasn't clear with my previous statement. I meant that I recently built the Gamma2 DAC to replace my sound card, and that I plan to use this Gamma-2 until I feel like it's the limiting factor in my audio chain, at which point I may buy a more expensive DAC.
cynan wrote:Well, you could just buy a DAC of equal size/quality (implementing the same top-end Wolfson chip) for less than $270 shipped if you don't want to assemble yourself. This one also comes with a decent enough headphone amp..
FireGryphon wrote:According to the TR review, the different op-amps sound different, but none make it as good as the Xonar.5) Swappable OP-AMPs. Sounds good on paper.
chµck wrote:cynan wrote:Well, you could just buy a DAC of equal size/quality (implementing the same top-end Wolfson chip) for less than $270 shipped if you don't want to assemble yourself. This one also comes with a decent enough headphone amp..
Building it is half the fun. Those SMD parts are crazy!
And from my (basic) engineering knowledge, the PCB layout is half of where the sound quality comes from, and the Gamma2 has a very nice layout.
I can't comment on if mine would sound better, since I have no experience with audio-gd products.
ludi wrote:FireGryphon wrote:According to the TR review, the different op-amps sound different, but none make it as good as the Xonar.5) Swappable OP-AMPs. Sounds good on paper.
Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where knowing the difference, IS the difference, or else there is an incorrectly controlled third factor, such as a change in output level (when comparing two sources, people will often identify a slightly louder source as a slightly higher quality source).
A certain type of audiophile will swear up and down that they can hear the difference, but It has been shown repeatedly that in a true double-blind A/B test, effectively nobody can tell the difference between op-amp types from a cheap TL072 on upwards, unless there is an actual defect in the hardware. If the ability to tinker is amusing to you, then it might be a useful feature, but otherwise, focus on the features that matter.
cynan wrote:From my limited experience, I tend to prefer implementations that don't use any OP AMPs in the analog output stage. But again, implementation is key...
Also, I doubt I'd pay the $80 for the OP AMP kit. I don't know if you can any longer, but some manufacturers used to offer free samples. I remember getting a couple of sets of OP AMPs to swap in, and all I had to pay was shipping.
chµck wrote:cynan wrote:From my limited experience, I tend to prefer implementations that don't use any OP AMPs in the analog output stage. But again, implementation is key...
Is there any particular reason why?
The output on my Gamma-2 goes through a CMOS rail-rail opamp, which acts as a lowpass filter and pre-amp. I have though of wiring the DAC straight to my headphone amp, but I'm not sure it'll be worth it.Also, I doubt I'd pay the $80 for the OP AMP kit. I don't know if you can any longer, but some manufacturers used to offer free samples. I remember getting a couple of sets of OP AMPs to swap in, and all I had to pay was shipping.
It's $80??? You can get all of them off ebay for less than half that. And while those opamps are great, they're hardly "premium"