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Airmantharp wrote:

Of course, depending on the shooter's needs, the 5D III is still the best all-around camera on the market, and Canon has the best lens lineup available, so...

pshhhh. only a max fps of 30p for 1080p video on the 5D III. Best all around my...

Airmantharp wrote:

...and Canon has the best lens lineup available, so...

See, this is the kind of nonsense I was mentioning a few posts back. How is Canon's lens lineup "best"? Leica users would laugh at you. What if I want small, stabilized primes - what's Canon's offerings there? Are there reasonably priced weather-resistant zooms available? You could say that Canon has the largest lens lineup, and maybe the most complete lens lineup, and I think that would be a justifiable position. But "best"? No, that's subjective.

Airmantharp wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

TheEmrys wrote:

I read on the Nikon forums at fm that screens for the d800's and d600's are severely lacking.

Lacking as in slow to production or lacking as in never designed/implemented at all?

I seem to be circling around the D610 as most reviewers bitch about the controls of the D800 compared to the D610. Will need to grab both before any decision is made. A large part of me wants the Df just because it looks like a "real" Nikon even if the ergonomics are a mess, but that's a piss-poor rationale for dropping long green.

For a serious shooter, the controls of the D610 are far more worth bitching about... and if one could afford a D800E and is willing to live within the Nikon ecosystem, then there really isn't a better camera available, both from an image quality standpoint and a handling standpoint within Nikon.

Of course, depending on the shooter's needs, the 5D III is still the best all-around camera on the market, and Canon has the best lens lineup available, so...

Indeed the line up is impressive. How are the lenses?

cynan wrote:

Airmantharp wrote:

Of course, depending on the shooter's needs, the 5D III is still the best all-around camera on the market, and Canon has the best lens lineup available, so...

pshhhh. only a max fps of 30p for 1080p video on the 5D III. Best all around my...

There is only one- a total of one- FF camera that does better, and that's Sony's new A7S, by virtue of being the first FF camera with full sensor readout. But that's video, which Canon is also known for; particularly when loaded with MagicLantern, the 5D III outputs some amazing video.

As a stills camera, it's the best balanced camera on the market.

PenGun wrote:

Indeed the line up is impressive. How are the lenses?

Incredible. Nearly all of them, including many of their older designs, are ready to take advantage of Canon's next jump in sensor resolution. Everything Canon has released recently has been best in class.

Yeats wrote:

Airmantharp wrote:

...and Canon has the best lens lineup available, so...

See, this is the kind of nonsense I was mentioning a few posts back. How is Canon's lens lineup "best"? Leica users would laugh at you. What if I want small, stabilized primes - what's Canon's offerings there? Are there reasonably priced weather-resistant zooms available? You could say that Canon has the largest lens lineup, and maybe the most complete lens lineup, and I think that would be a justifiable position. But "best"? No, that's subjective.

Best is definitely subjective- and Leica users laugh at a lot of people, who in turn laugh right back. "How's that M240 at your kids football game, huh?" etc. For the price one would pay for a fleshed out Leica system, a very complete, very very high quality Canon (or Nikon/Sony to a lesser extent) system could be assembled.

Also, Canon is on a roll making small, stabilized primes. Nikon is just getting around to putting SWM motors in their lenses, and Canon is putting out even sharper lenses with IS and USM. The 24/2.8 IS USM in my sig below is among them.

And for 'reasonably-priced weather-resistant zooms', I assume that you're referring to the kit Pentax zooms, for which no one has an equivalent. Of course, the Pentax zooms pale optically to the Canikon kit zooms, and Canikon put out ~f/4 professional zooms that would humiliate Pentax's range.

So yeah, I stand by saying 'best'. Best optically, best AF, best IS, best selection- it's all there.

(and I'd just as happily shoot Nikon, and damn near went Sony...)

Both Nikon and Canon have made some very fine lenses. To say Canon is best optically is just foolish, We know there are a couple of very fine Canon lenses but a large part of what they make is consumer dreck.

Zeiss has been dragged into some deals where they have made a few less than excellent lenses but nearly everything they have made is pretty fine. All of Leica's lenses are excellent.

PenGun wrote:

All of Leica's lenses are excellent.

I understand that I've found a nerve when it comes to you and Leica- and I agree that Leica makes some of the best glass available, if you can live with the wealth of downsides- but take the first review of the 2.5/75 as an example: the guy complains about excessive CA ruining the sharpness of his images. This in a $2,000 lens, of course.

My point is that Leica isn't perfect, and that their system is imminently more suited to someone such as yourself that shoots slowly and methodically at shorter focal lengths, and not so much for someone wanting to capture stuff that moves, or stuff at a distance, or stuff while moving, etc. For that sort of thing, Canon has the best lenses (and cameras).

No Leica gear in this bag, nor this one nor this one... nor on this table nor this one. How about these guys?

I was only objecting to the "best optically" part of all this.

I understand you need industrial level stuff for sports photography and some of those big guns are excellent. I understand if you want to shoot stuff on the fly auto everything is useful, all that is fine.

A few of those lenses are wonderful.

PenGun wrote:

I was only objecting to the "best optically" part of all this.

Then I'll clear it up: Leica's best lenses are the best lenses available anywhere. I mean that; I'm truly jealous of the S-system. Should Canon get off their butts and make a decent semi-pro EOS-M, I'd definitely be interested in picking up some Leica R glass, at least whatever the A7R people haven't already scavenged. And if I had to pick the 'best' compact system for everyday usage, no price limit, it'd be the M240, and I'd have the new 2/50 APO bolted on front. And I'd be happy .

(of course, I'd still not have given up my EOS gear, as it is still superior at what it does best, though I'd probably upgrade some of the glass, price not being a consideration )

JustAnEngineer wrote:

No Leica gear in this bag, nor this one nor this one... nor on this table nor this one. How about these guys?

I think the simple answer is that Leica bodies are at least as much about style/small form factor as they are about function. Even with their medium format S-range (though perhaps this body is the least compromised). Cannon and Nikon full frame cameras are true DSLRs (not range finders). Function always comes before form. If you want the most ergonomic, no-compromise bodies, it's going to be Nikon, and more often, Canon (because of their lens selection), over Leica, every time, irrespective of how wonderful and peerless some of Leica's primes are.

cynan wrote:

JustAnEngineer wrote:

No Leica gear in this bag, nor this one nor this one... nor on this table nor this one. How about these guys?

I think the simple answer is that Leica bodies are at least as much about style/small form factor as they are about function. Even with their medium format S-range (though perhaps this body is the least compromised). Cannon and Nikon full frame cameras are true DSLRs (not range finders). Function always comes before form. If you want the most ergonomic, no-compromise bodies, it's going to be Nikon, and more often, Canon (because of their lens selection), over Leica, every time, irrespective of how wonderful and peerless some of Leica's primes are.

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

PenGun wrote:

cynan wrote:

JustAnEngineer wrote:

No Leica gear in this bag, nor this one nor this one... nor on this table nor this one. How about these guys?

I think the simple answer is that Leica bodies are at least as much about style/small form factor as they are about function. Even with their medium format S-range (though perhaps this body is the least compromised). Cannon and Nikon full frame cameras are true DSLRs (not range finders). Function always comes before form. If you want the most ergonomic, no-compromise bodies, it's going to be Nikon, and more often, Canon (because of their lens selection), over Leica, every time, irrespective of how wonderful and peerless some of Leica's primes are.

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

Sure. I was referring the the ergonomics of a full-sized DSLR style body more than the SLR tech itself.

cynan wrote:

I think the simple answer is that Leica bodies are at least as much about style/small form factor as they are about function. Even with their medium format S-range (though perhaps this body is the least compromised). Cannon and Nikon full frame cameras are true DSLRs (not range finders). Function always comes before form. If you want the most ergonomic, no-compromise bodies, it's going to be Nikon, and more often, Canon (because of their lens selection), over Leica, every time, irrespective of how wonderful and peerless some of Leica's primes are.

PenGun wrote:

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

cynan wrote:

Sure. I was referring the the ergonomics of a full-sized DSLR style body more than the SLR tech itself.

Ergonomics? They are big clunky beasts because of the mirror. Heavy might be good for hand held but really.

PenGun wrote:

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

It's not the EVFs that most are worried about- those are already good enough and have significant room to improve with current technologies- it's the AF that becomes an issue. Let me know when a mirrorless body can focus at -3 EV like my 6D, or can track a small subject as well as a D4S or 1D X.

PenGun wrote:

Ergonomics? They are big clunky beasts because of the mirror. Heavy might be good for hand held but really.

DSLRs can be made small, but for those that are attaching professional glass, a larger, heavier body is usually highly desired.

Canon's SL1, for example, is the smallest DSLR made, and it's cheap! Nikon's new D3300 is also small, and is light because it's made out of carbon fiber, and it's also cheap! And there's not a damn thing except marketing that's keeping Canon and Nikon from dropping their FF sensors from the already somewhat miniaturized 6D and D610 and dropping them into the crop bodies. And by the way, the 6D is just about damn perfect for a DSLR.

Airmantharp wrote:

PenGun wrote:

Ergonomics? They are big clunky beasts because of the mirror. Heavy might be good for hand held but really.

DSLRs can be made small, but for those that are attaching professional glass, a larger, heavier body is usually highly desired.

It's the opposite in the telescope world. People are just loving the little hi quality mirrorless cameras because they are so light. Being all EV does not hurt either.

Really once you get to anything large, the camera is just a small appendage on the back of the lens.

Well, I really don't see telescope people shooting an event with the camera and optic on a monopod either .

But I can see how the mirrorless cameras would offer an advantage, as focusing isn't as much of an issue as the need for resolution and low readout noise at high sensitivity. And having good EVFs/live view would definitely be a plus for composition, I'd think.

Airmantharp wrote:

PenGun wrote:

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

It's not the EVFs that most are worried about- those are already good enough and have significant room to improve with current technologies- it's the AF that becomes an issue. Let me know when a mirrorless body can focus at -3 EV like my 6D, or can track a small subject as well as a D4S or 1D X.

How close do you think the a6000 would get to autofocus speed of a D6? Sony has marketed the a6000 as the fastest autofocusing camera (contrast/phase hybrid mode). However, in lower light, this might mostly go out the window. Of course, you need a compatible lens, or one that can be firmware upgraded... I imagine not as good as the D6, but I wonder what kind of delta we're talking about. Haven't really been able to find good comparisons.

Just a thought. With the very good resolution APS-C offers now will we start to see FF being used less for sports? The cost, size and sheer logistics involved with high end FF seems kind useless now as all they have to fill is computer screens and magazines. Not at all difficult for APS-C, and way cheaper, and as well quite a bit smaller and lighter. Really, better for trying to catch stuff moving about the place.

Airmantharp wrote:

PenGun wrote:

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

It's not the EVFs that most are worried about- those are already good enough and have significant room to improve with current technologies- it's the AF that becomes an issue. Let me know when a mirrorless body can focus at -3 EV like my 6D, or can track a small subject as well as a D4S or 1D X.

Apart from the a6000, have you seen the a7S yet. An astonishing hi ISO camera, ISO 50-409600, and it's really good in the dark.

http://petapixel.com/2014/04/11/sony-re ... sion-cost/

PenGun wrote:

Airmantharp wrote:

PenGun wrote:

DSLRs, like dinosaurs are dying, it will take a while but the EVs are almost there.

It's not the EVFs that most are worried about- those are already good enough and have significant room to improve with current technologies- it's the AF that becomes an issue. Let me know when a mirrorless body can focus at -3 EV like my 6D, or can track a small subject as well as a D4S or 1D X.

Apart from the a6000, have you seen the a7S yet. An astonishing hi ISO camera, ISO 50-409600, and it's really good in the dark.

http://petapixel.com/2014/04/11/sony-re ... sion-cost/

Seems like Sony is trying to sell 4K video with the A7S, which seems a bit weird. I guess they're sort of trying to offer a full-frame version of the Panasonic GH4? But then large sensors typically aren't very good for video (jello effect), but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

And a 12 MP FF camera had better be good in the dark.

As I mentioned earlier, the only real advancement that the A7S brings to the video party is full sensor readout, along with a minor increase in encoding bitrate. It's still going to suffer from a lack of a full RAW (or near enough) codec to actually make use of the resulting DR, and it's still missing a global shutter, which means that neither the camera nor the subject can move quickly without incurring the above-mentioned 'jello effect'.

So it's mostly half-assed, like the other two A7s. Maybe Canon or Nikon will get it right with their next updates.

Airmantharp wrote:

As I mentioned earlier, the only real advancement that the A7S brings to the video party is full sensor readout, along with a minor increase in encoding bitrate. It's still going to suffer from a lack of a full RAW (or near enough) codec to actually make use of the resulting DR, and it's still missing a global shutter, which means that neither the camera nor the subject can move quickly without incurring the above-mentioned 'jello effect'.

So it's mostly half-assed, like the other two A7s. Maybe Canon or Nikon will get it right with their next updates.

I was not talking about the video. The low light capability is new. The quibble about RAW kinda reveals a lack of understanding.

Anyway it will focus in the dark, which was my point.

PenGun wrote:

I was not talking about the video. The low light capability is new. The quibble about RAW kinda reveals a lack of understanding.

Anyway it will focus in the dark, which was my point.

It's only really useful for video- the top ISO setting on any camera is worth less than what they paid the development team in man-hours to have it added. As for 'focusing in the dark', that I'm going to throw into full doubt until I see what people can do with it. Yes, that sensor is awesome- a 12MP spin of Sony's current Exmor tech- and it should be able to 'see' in the dark. But I don't expect it to put out files that are any better than the current cameras once normalized for resolution. High ISO video, enabled by the full sensor readout, is it's only ace in the whole.

Still mulling this one over (particularly since I haven't put the Canon gear up for sale yet), but I'm now leaning toward the Olympus OMD-EM10 and the M.Zukio ED 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro as the base kit. (Telephoto or telezoom to be determined, partly because I'm curious how that 300mm f/4 Pro will turn out when released next year). Functionally, that pretty much matches what I have now in the 7D and EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS.

I also like the idea of being able to pick up a used GX1 body for pennies on the MSRP dollar on eBay, should I ever need to travel lighter than what the OMD body will provide.

Here's a question, though: The EM-10 has in-body stabilization, but a number of the Panasonic MFT lenses have the OIS feature in the lens. What happens if a Panny MFT lens is installed on an Olympus body? Does the user simply have to remember to keep at least one of the stabilization features turned off, or are there other incompatibilities?

The mft system is very smart. It will shut down the other image stabilization for you. The body's IS is top notch and you can pretty much set it and forget it. I believe I have read it will turn itself off if it is on a tripod.

Had a chance to stop by a Mike's Camera location Sunday afternoon, and they had an OMD-EM10 on the shelf with the kit zoom. It's actually smaller than I expected (good), while the behavior and controls layout are intuitively similar to my 7D (very good). Unfortunately they didn't have a 14-40 f/2.8 Pro lens in stock that day, so I wasn't able to compare the performance.

In any case, I think we have a winner. Just need to get the 7D kit posted to Craigslist.

Have you played with an SL1?