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ronch · Tue May 27, 2014 6:43 am

Ok, I just got a copy of Thief (4) on DVD and I must say... Steam SUCKS!!!

I am used to getting my games either in disc format or sites like gog.com, so when I heard that my favorite game series' latest installment, Thief, is to be available through Steam only, I lost interest in getting it despite my love for the franchise. But just the other day I happened to walk into a software store so I just grabbed a copy of Thief. I must've played Thief Deadly Shadows more than 20x through and quite honestly I'm just about ready to move on.

First thing I noticed is that the first thing that happens when I pop the disc into the drive is Steam wants to be installed. Fine, except it immediately updates itself and always aborts, complaining that I need to be online to update Steam. So off I went to Steam's website to download the latest Steam installer, which worked just fine. I then launched Steam and activated my copy of Thief by entering the product key, after which the Steam client immediately starts to download the game. Whoa, hold your horses, man! I have the DVDs right here and we don't need to twiddle our thumbs waiting an age to pass for that 24GB download to finish! I had to pause the download (not knowing how to totally abort it since I don't have to DL it because have the game's contents on DVD anyway) and figure out how to install the game from the DVDs. Double-clicking the DVD drive in My Computer results in the game menu with the option to FINALLY install Thief, thankfully, so I'm now installing the game. I have a hunch the 3 DVDs that comprise the package are DVD-9 discs, since the install process says there's 23999MB to install.

I was at first pissed off that Steam would immediately download the files without my consent (or without first asking me whether I have the game discs or not) even if their intent MAY be to give me the Thief install files wherever I am on planet Earth as long as I have my product key, but it wouldn't hurt if the Steam client could've at least asked me first. Or made it easy to abort the download. Hard drive (or in my case, SSD) real estate is precious, you know!

All in all, I'm not a fan of Steam (I'm the opposite, actually), and it seems like nothing more than an attempt to curb piracy the brute force way. That's all fine and dandy by me, but whatever happened to the idea of being able to install a game without needing to connect to the Internet? Even if we already have 50MBps internet speeds 20,000 leagues under the sea, I still wouldn't want to rely on some remote server to grant me permission before I can install a game I bought!

What are your thoughts? Do you hate Steam too and are just putting up with it?

Oh, before I go, here's another disgruntled user posting in the Steam forums.

Ryhadar · Tue May 27, 2014 6:50 am

I've never had steam start immediately downloading a game after putting in a product key. I wonder if they changed something since I've done it last.

puppetworx · Tue May 27, 2014 6:56 am

DVDs SUCK!

I really like Steam and I hate discs. I have a COD:MW DVD under my desk but I can't even install the game because the medium has degraded and has unreadable sectors. Unfortunately the game is from before the era that it came with Steam and the product key doesn't activate on Steam. Hence I have no way to play the game again without buying another copy.

I removed my DVD drive a few months back after realizing I haven't used it in over a year. I certainly dislike DVDs more than I dislike Steam.

ronch · Tue May 27, 2014 7:04 am

Ok, now that I'm done installing from the discs, I launch the game but the Steam Client tells me I need to wait 2 hours before I can play because it's downloading updates. Wow. Just. Wow. Where I live our internet connection is approximately 5 bits per second. WTF. I hate it!

Glorious · Tue May 27, 2014 7:08 am

ronch wrote:
Ok, now that I'm done installing from the discs, I launch the game but the Steam Client tells me I need to wait 2 hours before I can play because it's downloading updates. Wow. Just. Wow. Where I live our internet connection is approximately 5 bits per second. WTF. I hate it!

There's an option that allows you to turn off downloading updates for a game. At work, so I don't know precisely where, but it's there.

superjawes · Tue May 27, 2014 7:09 am

Games ship incomplete these days and require updates once installed. Don't hate Steam for that because it's an industry problem. Although you should keep in mind that if you had installed directly from Steam, you would have gotten the most up-to-date version (just sayin'...).

ronch · Tue May 27, 2014 7:26 am

This is the first and last game I get that needs Steam, I swear. I wanted to pay for this game, I really did. Now I somewhat feel I should've rebelled instead and got it through torrent!

Aranarth · Tue May 27, 2014 7:36 am

ronch wrote:
This is the first and last game I get that needs Steam, I swear. I wanted to pay for this game, I really did. Now I somewhat feel I should've rebelled instead and got it through torrent!

Which would have been an illegal, not up to date cracked, probably buggy copy of the game AND you would be downloading it ANYWAY!
I'm not quite sure of your logic...

So what exactly is the issue of steam giving you an up to date copy of game??

TwistedKestrel · Tue May 27, 2014 7:42 am

I could almost buy into the naivety about how updates work on Steam, except you claim to use gog.com. Surely you're not downloading those games through your ham radio internet connection.

puppetworx · Tue May 27, 2014 7:48 am

Glorious wrote:
There's an option that allows you to turn off downloading updates for a game. At work, so I don't know precisely where, but it's there.

This.

ronch · Tue May 27, 2014 8:02 am

Oh I get it. Steam is downloading right now, and it started at 98%. I think I get it. The discs contain 98% of the game and the rest need to be downloaded. Is that right? So I shouldn't feel bad about Steam, I should direct my disappointment towards the devs for putting away the last 2% of the game as well as making the game REQUIRE Steam. So if I'm stuck in some remote location in the middle of the desert and wanna play Thief, I can't because the Steam client first needs to confirm my identity. Isn't that right?

Chrispy_ · Tue May 27, 2014 8:04 am

I've found ANY game that comes on a DVD these days is a nightmare.

They all run through the publisher's distribution platform anyway (Steam, Origin, Uplay etc) which means you have to install that first and then create an account. If you use the game DVD to do this you're installing an outdated platform which needs updating via the web. Then once that's done you need to enter your game key and install the game from DVD which is outdated too, resulting in multiple gigabytes of patches and extra downloads.

The DVD's are released and shipped around the globe for launch day, so they're often labelled as version 1.0 but in reality they're version 0.99 Release-candidates with anything up to 3 weeks of last-minute changes. As you probably know, the vast majority of a project is pulled together at the last minute and the "3 weeks to go" build is usually a mess.

The correct way to install any DVD-based game these days is to go to the platform site, download the latest client and give it the serial key.
THEN you abort the web-install and install the game from the DVD, followed by an immediate "repair" of the outdated DVD installation which updates and patches from the web.

It's dumb, but unless you have crazy-slow internet it's usually better to wait for the game to download via the web.

vargis14 · Tue May 27, 2014 8:06 am

I hate Blizzard with a passion since I cannot play Diablo 3 because the darn Authenticator app on my phone will not give me the correct code to allow me to play! :evil:

To reset they want a picture of my driver licence....are they outta their minds, I have yet to call tyhem this happened this past weekend after not playing for months.

I hate just because you do not play something for a while you have to jump through hoops, claps your hands and do cart wheels all at the same time to get them going. Ubisoft is a SOB too. I have been lucky with Origin so far believe it or not.

puppetworx · Tue May 27, 2014 8:06 am

It seems you're rather unfamiliar with Steam ronch. It's not so bad.

Arvald · Tue May 27, 2014 8:24 am

I had the same thing happen to me with Skyrim... if you look online there is a way to force the disks to work.

SoM · Tue May 27, 2014 8:43 am

i've only used STEAM few times for Team Fortress 2 and never touched it again, then my account somehow got compromised, my STEAM app won't even open and i can't even uninstall it from my PC, and i keep getting emails that someone is accessing my STEAM from a different IP.

Tue May 27, 2014 8:46 am

Pure CD/DVD-based games are a dying breed. If you insist on not requiring an Internet connection, you will be limited mostly to older games, and will likely need to use emulation and/or maintain a fleet of legacy PCs (ala Starfalcon) to play them properly as newer versions of Windows progressively break compatibility with older applications.

Technically, you never actually owned *any* of the PC games you bought (hello EULAs). That fact is just more explicit and in-your-face now...

sweatshopking · Tue May 27, 2014 8:59 am

just wait until steam decides you're not you, and then the block your account for a month, preventing you from playing anything, while they reply to your emails (they have no phone support) once a week. happened to me a few times, and every time was their fault.

Arvald · Tue May 27, 2014 9:06 am

Never had any issues with Steam. I have a decent size group of friends that we all play using Steam.

I just wonder what people are playing that they get hacked or locked out... Steam does tend to be heavy handed on the people who cheat.

d@mn'd · Tue May 27, 2014 9:15 am

It is a wonderful archive, if you can learn to play the game their way.
I am not a huge steam fan but the platform does a few things I really like. Steam will allow you to play 'offline' https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-agcb-2555-which is good. Another plus is the backup feature that saves your game data https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8794-yphv-2033 and I tend to delete/remove games only to reinstall it years later so this backup has helped me-good again. Oh and another thing that is neat but I haven't used.... when you buy a game it is good on all platforms-good yet again.
On the other hand they track everything-which is a bad.

superjawes · Tue May 27, 2014 9:18 am

vargis14 wrote:
I hate Blizzard with a passion since I cannot play Diablo 3 because the darn Authenticator app on my phone will not give me the correct code to allow me to play!

To reset they want a picture of my driver licence....are they outta their minds, I have yet to call tyhem this happened this past weekend after not playing for months.

I hate just because you do not play something for a while you have to jump through hoops, claps your hands and do cart wheels all at the same time to get them going. Ubisoft is a SOB too. I have been lucky with Origin so far believe it or not.

...your fault...

Blizzard always issues warnings when an iOS update will or may break the authenticator app. They specifically tell you to take the authenticator off before you update so you can re-add it later.

Also, authenticators are opt-in, so you created your own hoops to jump through.

Scrotos · Tue May 27, 2014 9:51 am

superjawes wrote:
vargis14 wrote:
I hate Blizzard with a passion since I cannot play Diablo 3 because the darn Authenticator app on my phone will not give me the correct code to allow me to play!

To reset they want a picture of my driver licence....are they outta their minds, I have yet to call tyhem this happened this past weekend after not playing for months.

I hate just because you do not play something for a while you have to jump through hoops, claps your hands and do cart wheels all at the same time to get them going. Ubisoft is a SOB too. I have been lucky with Origin so far believe it or not.

...your fault...

Blizzard always issues warnings when an iOS update will or may break the authenticator app. They specifically tell you to take the authenticator off before you update so you can re-add it later.

Also, authenticators are opt-in, so you created your own hoops to jump through.

Yeah, same thing happened to me. I never wrote down the "rescue" code so I hosed myself. The wife set up her phone for SMS password resets and all that but I didn't and had to do the driver's license crap. In my case, I got a new phone and totally forgot that the authenticator stuff would be different. DOH.

Now I have SMS rescue set up so I won't run into that again. I can see why they are paranoid about the authenticator since, well, it's there to PREVENT unauthorized access, but it still enraged me.

superjawes · Tue May 27, 2014 10:03 am

Scrotos wrote:
Yeah, same thing happened to me. I never wrote down the "rescue" code so I hosed myself. The wife set up her phone for SMS password resets and all that but I didn't and had to do the driver's license crap. In my case, I got a new phone and totally forgot that the authenticator stuff would be different. DOH.

Now I have SMS rescue set up so I won't run into that again. I can see why they are paranoid about the authenticator since, well, it's there to PREVENT unauthorized access, but it still enraged me.

I can understand the frustration. And yeah, they do the whole photo ID thing because breaking the autheticator could lock out the legal user for a longer period of time while giving the compromiser more access to the account.

I kind of hope that a third party would step up and provide a common security service, though. Let me use my SSN and a couple of security questions for said service so I don't need the whole photo ID recovery, but keep that data with the third party instead of giving it to several parties. It would also be nice to trim down the number of accounts you need to have/information you need to remember information.

steelcity_ballin · Tue May 27, 2014 11:40 am

vargis14 wrote:
I hate Blizzard with a passion since I cannot play Diablo 3 because the darn Authenticator app on my phone will not give me the correct code to allow me to play!

To reset they want a picture of my driver licence....are they outta their minds, I have yet to call tyhem this happened this past weekend after not playing for months.

I hate just because you do not play something for a while you have to jump through hoops, claps your hands and do cart wheels all at the same time to get them going. Ubisoft is a SOB too. I have been lucky with Origin so far believe it or not.

I had the authenticator on an old phone. I tried to play d3 and couldn't due to the authenticator still being present, they wanted my photo ID. My license had JUST expired a few days prior. I had renewed online so if I got pulled over I was good to go. I sent them the picture of my now-expired ID, as well as the picture of my current paper non-photo ID.

Despite my pleading they would not accept this. I sat in line at the DMV for 3 hours so I could play Diablo 3. To be fair, when I sent my second photoID in, I took a nap and by the time I came to, the authentication was already removed. They are pretty damned quick for as large of a company as they are.

cynan · Tue May 27, 2014 11:52 am

I can also understand the frustration. But the fault doesn't just lie with Steam. The fault is with the fact that modern game distribution is dependent on the internet (namely through clients such as Steam or Origin).

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. Now that online distribution and patching through these clients have become so ubiquitous, developers can depend on them to support "unfinished" games that go manufacturing on pressed media. I guess you can blame Steam somewhat as they are the largest such entity (and hence may have had the single most stake in perpetuating this trend), but the problem is really the entire industry, not just Steam.

It's getting to the point where physical media sales are basically just game codes that you buy in a brick and mortar store. They still put the disks in the box so that there is reason to have a box to make a physical presence on the shelf that will get noticed by the consumer (I guess).

Personally, I no longer bother with physical media for this reason. Though if you do have slow or restricted internet access, I can certainly feel your pain.

SoM · Tue May 27, 2014 1:31 pm

steelcity_ballin wrote:
vargis14 wrote:
I hate Blizzard with a passion since I cannot play Diablo 3 because the darn Authenticator app on my phone will not give me the correct code to allow me to play!

To reset they want a picture of my driver licence....are they outta their minds, I have yet to call tyhem this happened this past weekend after not playing for months.

I hate just because you do not play something for a while you have to jump through hoops, claps your hands and do cart wheels all at the same time to get them going. Ubisoft is a SOB too. I have been lucky with Origin so far believe it or not.

I had the authenticator on an old phone. I tried to play d3 and couldn't due to the authenticator still being present, they wanted my photo ID. My license had JUST expired a few days prior. I had renewed online so if I got pulled over I was good to go. I sent them the picture of my now-expired ID, as well as the picture of my current paper non-photo ID.

Despite my pleading they would not accept this. I sat in line at the DMV for 3 hours so I could play Diablo 3. To be fair, when I sent my second photoID in, I took a nap and by the time I came to, the authentication was already removed. They are pretty damned quick for as large of a company as they are.

when i returned my second digital copy of D3 blizzard wanted photo ID aswell, they didn't when i returned my first copy two weeks after the game came out

NovusBogus · Tue May 27, 2014 2:30 pm

Welcome to internet DRM. Gabe must have inherited Steve's RDF because the guys ripping Origin seem to be the same guys zealously defending Steam. to be fair the blame isn't so much on Valve as it is third-party publishers who want to have their DRM cake and eat it too.

As for my use, I treat Steam games as a rental that I will lose at some point in the future, and accordingly only pay rental-game prices. It's unfortunate that I can't buy and enjoy retail games like I used to, but there isn't much I can do about it other than play less games, which I certainly do, and spend the remainder of my time playing golf when I'm healthy or making rage/troll posts on the internet when I'm not.

slowriot · Tue May 27, 2014 3:29 pm

IMO.... OPs problems are primarily due to the lack of familiarity with Steam. It behaved as expected. It definitely prompts you if you want to install after you've added a key, sounds to me OP clicked OK/Yes on dialog boxes without fully reading them.

Why do people complain about Origin/Battle.net/etc/etc but not Steam? Because it has very little if anything to do with DRM. Most people simply don't mind DRM. The biggest reasons to me are 1) Most clients lack even a competent chat feature, let alone the huge array of tools/utilities/community functions built into Steam. 2) For most people it is their second client, and they're annoyed they have to keep Steam AND Origin AND Battle.net AND etc running and up to date. And since these second clients are almost universally less useful.... the users complain.

JohnC · Tue May 27, 2014 3:44 pm

Wow, a bunch of old geezers are whining about such crucial first world problem! :lol:

Look, I also remember installing games (and DOS/Windows) from 3.5" floppies back in time, but those times are GONE forever, whether you like it or not. Just learn to deal with new way of content distribution. It's not "horrible" - it's actually much, MUCH more convenient nowadays. Last time I bought a game on physical media (it was a certain version of Mass Effect) - I had issues installing it due to a certain bug in the installer. I remember wasting a lot of time on searching for the solution in Bioware's forums, I did find it (it was supplied by another user, NOT the Bioware themselves) BUT it was extremely annoying. Since then I ALWAYS purchased games in digital format (except a few "Collector's Editions" because they contained physical items, but I didn't even open the included DVDs). Both on PC and consoles (swapping disks on consoles is also extremely annoying each time you need to switch game). Never had a single issue with being unable to play something. Same goes for "authenticator" apps for various games/software.

And it's not even about "convenience" - you can get NEW games for a significantly cheaper price if you just purchase a key from one of the bulk (legal) resellers like G2A.com instead of physical copy from your local (or major online) greedy retailer.

superjawes · Tue May 27, 2014 3:46 pm

slowriot wrote:
Most people simply don't mind DRM.

I have to agree with this. Most people understand that (whether consciously or not) the copyright holder has rights, and that includes rights to require DRM protecting the copyright.

However, when DRM fails and prevents legal users from enjoying content that they paid for, then you can expect a ****storm. Origin has been notorious for bad connections with always-on DRM. Heck, any single player game requiring a perpetual connection has been horrid. Battle.net did the same thing with D3. These same issues go back to physical media as well, like limited installs.

It would be nice if you could launch games offline, but at least Steam offers an offline mode after you've launched the game.

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