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riviera74 · Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:33 pm

If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything, which Mac would be best for somebody who has never used one? IOW, what is a the best Mac for beginners (assuming they are indifferent between desktop and notebook)?

slowriot · Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:38 pm

riviera74 wrote:
If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything, which Mac would be best for somebody who has never used one? IOW, what is a the best Mac for beginners (assuming they are indifferent between desktop and notebook)?

I wouldn't. But if I were I'd ask what are you trying to accomplish? Trying to learn OSX? Then I would just suggest loading it in a VM with Virtualbox. If you're wanting a new piece of hardware it depends on whether you desire to run the latest OSX release and if you want a desktop (Mac Mini for cheap) or laptop.

superjawes · Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:43 pm

Mac Mini is your cheapest bet, although my instinct would be to get the most out of an Apple product, and that means a laptop (because I have absolutely no need for a desktop). From there, I don't know if you want a Macbook Air or Macbook Pro. The Pro's r will have more power while the Air's will be more portable.

It should also be said that I really don't have any experience or interest with Mac machines, so feel free to take a grain of salt with these suggestions.

cphite · Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:51 pm

How is the Mac going to be used? Are you looking for something for work, or just day to day stuff? If work, what kind of work?

geekl33tgamer · Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:52 pm

riviera74 wrote:
If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything

Can I stop you there? I wouldn't take a Mac over a Pc for anything at all. I was forced to use one for a while at work on a client's project (2013 MPB 13", non-retina). Sure it felt nice, and I'm not so inept I couldn't learn OSX.

But I had some interesting compatibility problems with it trying to co-exist (and share files) between it and my PC's. It also needed very expensive software to replace windows equivalents. It was also wildly overpriced and under-spec for the money - but that's no shock neither.

Unless there's a killer software product you need that is only on OSX, I don't really see the appeal. Sorry, I was glad to give mine back.

SnowboardingTobi · Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:10 pm

I don't understand this question. Beginner Mac? The OS is the same between the different Macs, so the hardware is the only deciding factor. At that point then it's just a question of need. Figure that out and you have your answer.

windwalker · Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:51 pm

This is one of the worst places on the Internet to ask such a question. Previous replies are a testament.

The correct answer to your question is of course it depends on your needs.
Macs are not cheap so it makes sense to choose wisely.

If you want to skip that step you can go either cheap or expensive.
Expensive means buy the most expensive new machine you can afford or are willing to pay for.
Apple tries to keep their product lines simple and with minimal overlaps so more money gets you a better machine.
Cheap means buy the cheapest second hand or refurbished Mac that can run the latest version of OS X.

bthylafh · Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:18 pm

windwalker wrote:
This is one of the worst places on the Internet to ask such a question. Previous replies are a testament.

This is true, but honestly the question's not even wrong. If OP had a clue he'd tell us what kind of use he's got planned for this Mac, his budget, and whether he wants a laptop or a desktop. As it is, he sounds a little like someone who's trying to evangelize his favorite platform onto someone else.

sjl · Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:33 pm

Speaking as a Mac user (I don't even have a standard PC for games), you're asking the wrong question. As others have pointed out, the operating system is exactly the same, no matter which piece of hardware you buy.

So your choices basically boil down to:

The iMac: an all-in-one that has become increasingly difficult to upgrade as hardware revisions march on. Basically, the only part you can (officially) upgrade is the RAM in the 27" model; upgrading the hard disk, or the RAM on smaller systems, is very much not for the faint of heart. That's not to say that the iMac is a bad system, merely that you should not be buying it with the expectation that you can upgrade/replace the hard drive or memory.
The Mac mini: the RAM in the latest models is readily upgradable, but nothing else. You can upgrade the hard disk, but it is not a trivial process. Unlike every other system Apple sells, you will need to supply (or buy) a keyboard and mouse. It's also one of only two systems (the Mac Pro is the other) that does not come with a built in display.
The laptop range (MacBook Air and MacBook Pro): essentially not upgradable, except for the 13" non-Retina model.
The Mac Pro: memory is upgradable, no problem. There are third party companies that can provide CPU upgrades, but they won't be cheap (these are Xeon systems, after all.) SSD upgrades are currently not possible, because nobody is selling them, but that should change soon.

All systems are capable of driving external displays (yes, the Mac mini can drive two displays: one off the HDMI port, one off the Thunderbolt port). Only the low end (non-Retina) MacBook Pro comes with an optical drive; if you want an optical drive on any other current Mac, you'll need an external unit. External storage these days is typically via Thunderbolt; be prepared to buy a Thunderbolt hub if the system has only one TB port and you also want to run a display through it.

As for how they'll perform: look at the tech specs, that'll give you a pretty good idea.

I'll freely admit to not being particularly happy about Apple's attitudes towards upgrades, but that's a compromise I'm willing to make. I'm a Unix head going back two decades; Windows feels incredibly clunky to me. Linux is okay, but I gave up on it when I had the feeling that I was fiddling around more than I was getting actual work done (and I must admit, my experience with the latest Linux desktops hasn't encouraged me to go back.) Mac OS suits me better than any other operating system these days; I don't feel like I'm fighting it to get work done, and that's worth (from my perspective) the upgrade issues that Apple hardware presents. Your mileage may vary, and there's nothing wrong with having different preferences on that matter.

d@mn'd · Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:00 pm

Apple has been make their products increasingly un-upgradeable. So I advise people to shoot the moon and only by the top of the line and deck it out as much as you can. And apple has been relying on Intel Iris graphics, so for example, the laptop the top 15" MacBook Pro is the only laptop with a Nvidia or AMD graphics part. You will spend $2k easy but in the end you will not buy a new computer for 5 years or more.

Deanjo · Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:15 pm

slowriot wrote:
riviera74 wrote:
If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything, which Mac would be best for somebody who has never used one? IOW, what is a the best Mac for beginners (assuming they are indifferent between desktop and notebook)?

I wouldn't. But if I were I'd ask what are you trying to accomplish? Trying to learn OSX? Then I would just suggest loading it in a VM with Virtualbox. If you're wanting a new piece of hardware it depends on whether you desire to run the latest OSX release and if you want a desktop (Mac Mini for cheap) or laptop.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11214

1.) No posting links/hints/suggestions/etc for warez/serials/no-cd cracks/keygens/etc. This includes using virtual CD programs or other things to get around copy-protection. There are other places on the Internet where you can get help with those kinds of things. Any post containing such things will be deleted or edited and the poster will receive a warning. Continued posting of such things will result in a ban. This includes unauthorized file sharing of copyrighted materials as well as linking or mentioning sites/sources whose primary purpose is to share such materials.

slowriot · Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:16 pm

Deanjo wrote:
slowriot wrote:
riviera74 wrote:
If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything, which Mac would be best for somebody who has never used one? IOW, what is a the best Mac for beginners (assuming they are indifferent between desktop and notebook)?

I wouldn't. But if I were I'd ask what are you trying to accomplish? Trying to learn OSX? Then I would just suggest loading it in a VM with Virtualbox. If you're wanting a new piece of hardware it depends on whether you desire to run the latest OSX release and if you want a desktop (Mac Mini for cheap) or laptop.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11214

1.) No posting links/hints/suggestions/etc for warez/serials/no-cd cracks/keygens/etc. This includes using virtual CD programs or other things to get around copy-protection. There are other places on the Internet where you can get help with those kinds of things. Any post containing such things will be deleted or edited and the poster will receive a warning. Continued posting of such things will result in a ban. This includes unauthorized file sharing of copyrighted materials as well as linking or mentioning sites/sources whose primary purpose is to share such materials.

Hahaha. Oh please. This was OPENLY discussed in the Friday Topic about virtualization.

Deanjo · Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:07 pm

slowriot wrote:
Hahaha. Oh please. This was OPENLY discussed in the Friday Topic about virtualization.

Sure, if you already own a mac. He doesn't and since he does not own one, which is the only way to get it legally, you are suggesting he pirates OS X. It's no different then you saying to just download windows and bypassing the key validation.

Your justifying piracy just because it's Apple. Substitute OS X with windows and all of a sudden it's piracy.

slowriot · Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:25 pm

Deanjo wrote:
Sure, if you already own a mac. He doesn't and since he does not own one, which is the only way to get it legally, you are suggesting he pirates OS X. It's no different then you saying to just download windows and bypassing the key validation.

Your justifying piracy just because it's Apple. Substitute OS X with windows and all of a sudden it's piracy.

I'm fairly certain you don't have the rights to run OSX on non-Apple hardware regardless if you own a Mac or not.

I have a bigger moral issue with suggesting someone waste their money to just try OSX. And I'd suggest the same to someone trying Windows (It really, really annoys me you would suggest I would have a problem with that, frankly). Label it what you want in either case. What's clear is I've annoyed you in some other way, which just makes me happy.

Deanjo · Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:43 pm

slowriot wrote:
I'm fairly certain you don't have the rights to run OSX on non-Apple hardware regardless if you own a Mac or not.

I have a bigger moral issue with suggesting someone waste their money to just try OSX. And I'd suggest the same to someone trying Windows (It really, really annoys me you would suggest I would have a problem with that, frankly). Label it what you want in either case. What's clear is I've annoyed you in some other way, which just makes me happy.

The license allows running VM's on Mac hardware. The process of obtaining that copy to run it on non mac hardware is piracy. Your "morals" have no real relevance in determining if it is piracy or not.

drsauced · Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:45 pm

We've got a whole butt load of 20" iMacs coming for work. The new boss wants all-Mac and doesn't really consider them as impractical as I do. And so starts my support nightmare, sigh. Macs are fine in small numbers but get rather dangerous in large numbers.

But to respond to the OP, in my view, the 27" iMac is the only desktop really worth considering. The 20" iMac is just plain too small for work space, and there's no 24" version. The Mac Pro is pretty new, looks like a trash can, and I'm hearing that they aren't particularly reliable. Sorry word of mouth, so no sauce on that rumour. The Mac mini is long in the tooth (I think it's getting a refresh at the end of this year) at this point and also pretty limited in terms of connectivity. Then couple that with the only monitor Apple sells with the coveted logo on it is the 27" display. So, just get a 27" iMac.

Secondly, compared to the garden variety Windows PC, Macs are very difficult to work on. Case in point, one of our shiny new 27" iMacs lost its HDD. I could replace it and get it up and running in a jiffy with a PC, but the iMac requires suction cups. Not exactly a tool I would think of having on our work bench. I'm thinking Apple support? Meh. I can just see myself on a weekly trip down to the geniuses for a routine pickup and drop-off.

Sorry for the bellyaching.

slowriot · Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Deanjo wrote:
The license allows running VM's on Mac hardware. The process of obtaining that copy to run it on non mac hardware is piracy. Your "morals" have no real relevance in determining if it is piracy or not.

The discussions in the Friday Night Topic were clearly in reference to running it on non-Mac hardware. You didn't express any grievance then. Or are you suggesting there's no issue violating the license agreement but there is one with pirating it? :roll:

derFunkenstein · Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:40 pm

I'm an unrepentant Hackintosher, but I've been an on-and-off Mac user since the dark old days of Performa 6300s in the music tech lab in college. It's up to you to decide if an EULA is enforceable as law, but Apple GIVES AWAY the OS. You do have to have a machine running OS X to download it, but that's why I bought a DVD of Snow Leopard on eBay. No piracy here - I boot that DVD off of another boot132 CD and then install Snow Leopard, upgrade to 10.6.8, and then use Apple's app store to download Mavericks. As far as I'm concerned or care, it's as free as Ubuntu, and we've talked about it in this forum multiple times in the past.

Both my desktop and my wife's are running Mavericks using Clover as a boot loader. Completely unmodified installs - any "unsupported" hardware is patched in or has a kext on the EFI partition.

Mine is an i5 3570K, Gigabyte Z77-DS3H, GTX 760, 16GB of memory, and a 1.25TB fusion drive (256GB Toshiba SSD, 1TB HDD)
My wife's is an i5 4570, Gigabyte H87M-D3H, GTX 660, 8GB of memory, and a .625TB fusion drive (128GB Sandisk SSD, 500GB HDD)

Enough real Macs have problems waking from sleep that I don't mind that I have to disable sleep on mine because the video driver apparently quits and the machine restarts sometime between midnight and 1am if I don't. My wife's sleeps and wakes just fine, though.

So if you want to dabble with a Mac you might already have the right hardware and all you need is a spare hard drive and a Snow Leopard DVD.

Wife's Hackintosh by derFunkenstein, on Flickr

Buub · Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:57 pm

geekl33tgamer wrote:
riviera74 wrote:
If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything

Can I stop you there? I wouldn't take a Mac over a Pc for anything at all. I was forced to use one for a while at work on a client's project (2013 MPB 13", non-retina). Sure it felt nice, and I'm not so inept I couldn't learn OSX.

But I had some interesting compatibility problems with it trying to co-exist (and share files) between it and my PC's. It also needed very expensive software to replace windows equivalents. It was also wildly overpriced and under-spec for the money - but that's no shock neither.

Unless there's a killer software product you need that is only on OSX, I don't really see the appeal. Sorry, I was glad to give mine back.

Can I stop you there?

Not trying to start a flamewar here, but these are your experiences.

I wouldn't buy another PC, myself. And I explicitly requested a Mac for my work computer, at my third company in a row. Because it Just Works Better. IMHO of course. (And just to forestall the fanboy assertion, I've been building my own Windows PCs for decades, so I've got feet firmly wet in both camps.)

You don't need expensive Windows software replacements if you're not using it to "replace" Windows. If you just need office apps, iWorks is much cheaper than Office. But Office is available (and comparably priced). If you're working with Unix/Linux, well then you don't need to buy anything else, unlike Windows. You don't even need to download or install anything. It has native Unix shells, ssh, real xterms, VNC, etc. built right in. X is a simple free download away (used to be built in, but it's much less needed these days). OS/X coexists with Unix/Linux MUCH better than Windows right out of the box. And it coexists fine with Windows for simple file sharing.

If you really need Windows occasionally (I do for the occasional WIndows package I need to run, and I do mean occasional). Install Windows in a VM using VMware Fusion or Parallels. It runs very well.

And yes, the MacBook hardware costs more, because it is better. Literally. I have yet to find a PC laptop with the build quality of a MacBook.

But to each his/her own. Try it. If you like it, good for you. If not, use what makes you happy.

Deanjo · Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:58 pm

slowriot wrote:
Deanjo wrote:
The license allows running VM's on Mac hardware. The process of obtaining that copy to run it on non mac hardware is piracy. Your "morals" have no real relevance in determining if it is piracy or not.

The discussions in the Friday Night Topic were clearly in reference to running it on non-Mac hardware. You didn't express any grievance then. Or are you suggesting there's no issue violating the license agreement but there is one with pirating it?

Friday night I was busy watching the football games (and when I did comment in there it was about the title not matching what a the discussion as presented was actually about.

Again, you are talking about piracy. Straight out obtaining a copy of software to which no license has been granted to do so. That is theft, and that is piracy. Even when purchased if you do or not agree with the terms, the options are straight forward and simple, agree to follow the terms or don't use the software at all. It is just like these forums, there are a set of rules that are in play when you use them. You can choose to follow them and use the forums, or don't use them if you cannot abide by those terms.

Buub · Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:07 pm

Back to the original topic, IMHO the best mix of technology is in the MacBook Pro (the MacBook Air is nice if you want small and light, with less memory and CPU). If you're just getting started, I would find a friend who's familiar with Macs and investigate getting a used one off Craigslist, rather than paying full price for a brand new one. The software/OS are going to be the same, but you can save a few bucks by getting one a couple years old.

If you go MacBook Pro, stick to the Unibody models. The pre-unibody models are getting older and long in tooth. They don't have the fantastic glass touchpad, and are generally have lower memory limits.

IMHO...

Deanjo · Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:16 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
It's up to you to decide if an EULA is enforceable as law, but Apple GIVES AWAY the OS.

Actually the legality of running OS X on a non Apple machine has been deemed illegal and appeals to the Supreme Court to over turn that decision were denied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psystar_Corporation

On November 13, 2009, the court granted Apple's motion for summary judgement and found Apple's copyrights were violated as well as the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) when Psystar installed Apple's operating system on non-Apple computers. A hearing on remedies was set for December 14.[26][27]

On December 1, 2009, Psystar agreed to pay Apple $2.7 million for copyright infringement, breach of contract, violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, additional damages and attorneys fees in the California lawsuit. The payments were deferred until all Psystar's appeals are exhausted.[28]

On December 15, 2009, the judge in the California action issued a permanent injunction barring Psystar from manufacturing, distributing, or assisting anyone with any sort of device or technology "that is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure". The ruling applies to all current and future versions of Mac OS X and Judge Alsup made it clear that "Psystar will be selling Rebel EFI at its peril, and risks finding itself held in contempt if its new venture falls within the scope of the injunction."[29] The ruling also requires Psystar to destroy all of its equipment and material that it used in the circumvention of Apple technologies by December 31.[30]

On January 16, 2010, Psystar announced that they would be appealing the lawsuit put in place on December 15. [31]

As of August, 2010, Psystar's web site, store, and content delivery network are unreachable.

On May 14, 2012, the Supreme Court denied Psystar's appeal. [32]

Apple gives its operating system free to Mac users, not to everyone and only under the terms of the EULA.

As far as I'm concerned or care, it's as free as Ubuntu, and we've talked about it in this forum multiple times in the past.

It is not even close to being the same as Ubuntu. Ubuntu's EULA expressively grants you rights to do so, Apples does not.

Now seeing how any talk about ripping a DVD or Bluray is banned in these forums because of it being a violation of the DMCA act, the same rules apply to hackintoshes and piracy of OS X software.

The Egg · Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:46 am

If you want the most bang for your buck, get something used, possibly a Mac with some sort of mild issues (assuming you're handy enough to resolve them). Mac users are typically not handy at all, and often just buy a new computer rather than deal with it.

Case in point, a few years ago someone handed me an Intel-based iMac for nothing. The guy was having problems and didn't want to deal with it or pay Apple support to diagnose/repair it. Turned out to be a dying hard drive (which was a bi**h to replace), but after that worked flawlessly. I did a bit of messing around with the OS (Snow Leopard), and then eventually sold it. I imagine there are plenty of other Mac users who are frustrated with a mild issue and in the same boat as him.

Deanjo · Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:14 am

The Egg wrote:
If you want the most bang for your buck, get something used, possibly a Mac with some sort of mild issues (assuming you're handy enough to resolve them). Mac users are typically not handy at all, and often just buy a new computer rather than deal with it.

I actually beg to differ on that. I find most Mac users are more capable fixing their issues than the typical PC guy.

Case in point, a few years ago someone handed me an Intel-based iMac for nothing. The guy was having problems and didn't want to deal with it or pay Apple support to diagnose/repair it. Turned out to be a dying hard drive (which was a bi**h to replace), but after that worked flawlessly. I did a bit of messing around with the OS (Snow Leopard), and then eventually sold it. I imagine there are plenty of other Mac users who are frustrated with a mild issue and in the same boat as him.

Care to guess how many PC's I have received over the years because the user did not want to have to reinstall Windows or replace a drive?

Flatland_Spider · Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:27 am

Deanjo wrote:
slowriot wrote:
I'm fairly certain you don't have the rights to run OSX on non-Apple hardware regardless if you own a Mac or not.

I have a bigger moral issue with suggesting someone waste their money to just try OSX. And I'd suggest the same to someone trying Windows (It really, really annoys me you would suggest I would have a problem with that, frankly). Label it what you want in either case. What's clear is I've annoyed you in some other way, which just makes me happy.

The license allows running VM's on Mac hardware. The process of obtaining that copy to run it on non mac hardware is piracy. Your "morals" have no real relevance in determining if it is piracy or not.

OS X can be virtualized using vSphere 5. VMware even gives out instructions on how to install it.

There used to be a requirement for ESX(i) to be run on Apple hardware, XServe, but Apple doesn't produce server hardware anymore. I've looked, and I'm pretty sure the requirement, in regards to vSphere, was dropped.

Guest Operating System Installation Guide: OS X 10.9
http://partnerweb.vmware.com/GOSIG/MacOSX_10_9.html

Flatland_Spider · Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:50 am

riviera74 wrote:
If anyone here were to suggest a Mac over a PC for anything, which Mac would be best for somebody who has never used one? IOW, what is a the best Mac for beginners (assuming they are indifferent between desktop and notebook)?

I would suggest a Mac over PC for everything, unless you're wanting to run Linux on bare metal or need IE. Macs are nice pieces of kit, and they aren't hindered by software like they used to be. There are some niche applications that are Windows only, but the majority of mainstream stuff is cross-platform these days.

The best Mac for a newbie would be a cheap one with lots of RAM. Seriously, OS X loves RAM, and I wouldn't invest a ton of money into something the person may not like.

Refurbed Macs can be found all over the Internet, and I would look at a Mac Mini, a MacBook, or a MacBook Pros. The older Mac Pros are huge, and the iMacs have built in screens. With the iMac, you might as well get a laptop. The laptop will take up less room, and you can take it to coffeeshops to impress the intelligentsia there.

I browse Craigslist from time to time to see what's out there, and the Apple Store has a refurb/clearance section (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac). Then there is Powermax (http://www.powermax.com/) which is one of the older resellers.

Deanjo · Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:58 am

Flatland_Spider wrote:
Deanjo wrote:
slowriot wrote:
I'm fairly certain you don't have the rights to run OSX on non-Apple hardware regardless if you own a Mac or not.

I have a bigger moral issue with suggesting someone waste their money to just try OSX. And I'd suggest the same to someone trying Windows (It really, really annoys me you would suggest I would have a problem with that, frankly). Label it what you want in either case. What's clear is I've annoyed you in some other way, which just makes me happy.

The license allows running VM's on Mac hardware. The process of obtaining that copy to run it on non mac hardware is piracy. Your "morals" have no real relevance in determining if it is piracy or not.

OS X can be virtualized using vSphere 5. VMware even gives out instructions on how to install it.

There used to be a requirement for ESX(i) to be run on Apple hardware, XServe, but Apple doesn't produce server hardware anymore. I've looked, and I'm pretty sure the requirement, in regards to vSphere, was dropped.

Guest Operating System Installation Guide: OS X 10.9
http://partnerweb.vmware.com/GOSIG/MacOSX_10_9.html

From your own link:

Ensure your physical system is an Apple-labeled computer. This is required to install or run OS X 10.8 and OS X 10.9 in a virtual machine.

As far as server hardware goes, Apple sells both a server version of the Mac Mini and also considers the Mac Pro a Xserve replacement. The OS X EULA also still requires it to run on Apple hardware.

(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple
Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own
or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software
development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using OS X Server; or (d)
personal, non-commercial use

superjawes · Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:37 am

Okay, this thread seems to have derailed a bit...riviera74 has not responded to any of the questions (yet), so maybe it would be better to leave this conversation alone until we can get some clarification, specifically about the reasoning for getting a Mac at all.

Arvald · Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:48 am

Deanjo wrote:
slowriot wrote:
I'm fairly certain you don't have the rights to run OSX on non-Apple hardware regardless if you own a Mac or not.

I have a bigger moral issue with suggesting someone waste their money to just try OSX. And I'd suggest the same to someone trying Windows (It really, really annoys me you would suggest I would have a problem with that, frankly). Label it what you want in either case. What's clear is I've annoyed you in some other way, which just makes me happy.

The license allows running VM's on Mac hardware. The process of obtaining that copy to run it on non mac hardware is piracy. Your "morals" have no real relevance in determining if it is piracy or not.

Actually the process is just walk into a apple reseller (yes those still exist) and drop the $30 on the latest OSX.
You can acquire it legally without piracy.
The running of the system on non Apple hardware on the other hand is the license violation in the USA and a few other countries. Apple is one of those companies whose EULAs violate laws in many countries.

As to the OP... for the cheapest options are a MacBook Air or the Mac Mini. I love my little Mac Mini and it was great while I was playing around writing apps.
If you just want to try out an Apple machine might I suggest a refurb MacBook Air... they are very reasonably priced as a refurb. With OSX you don't need latest and greatest hardware for just using it as a regular user.

The Egg · Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:02 am

superjawes wrote:
Okay, this thread seems to have derailed a bit...riviera74 has not responded to any of the questions (yet), so maybe it would be better to leave this conversation alone until we can get some clarification, specifically about the reasoning for getting a Mac at all.

He might just be curious and want to mess around with a different OS.

Deanjo wrote:
I actually beg to differ on that. I find most Mac users are more capable fixing their issues than the typical PC guy.

Gotta disagree. I know many Mac users. Of those, a much smaller percentage have any substantial amount of knowledge compared to the PC users I know (which are generally of the same demographic). Many people specifically choose Mac because they believe it requires less knowledge to use. They're also designed to be almost non-servicable from a hardware perspective, which lends to users taking a hands-off approach to problems.

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