TR Forums

just brew it! wrote:

Will you still be rolling when a lot of those same people realize... holy crap, maybe I should just switch to Linux, or get a Mac?

Yes, and I will laugh my ass off.
They'll have no idea what they'll be missing.

Meadows wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

Will you still be rolling when a lot of those same people realize... holy crap, maybe I should just switch to Linux, or get a Mac?

Yes, and I will laugh my ass off.
They'll have no idea what they'll be missing.

For a small (but increasing) percentage of users, the "things they miss" will actually be a good thing...

If Microsoft wants to remain relevant 5-10 years down the road, they need to address this.

Krogoth wrote:

When will this thread die?

Vista is most certainly not the ME 2.0 or disliked by the majority despite all of the FUD.

It is just a tiny, very vocal minority that attempts to keep the FUD alive. I know that change is annoying, but it is a fact of life.

Oh, PLEASE. With respect Krogoth stop being an annoying asshat who just goes around screaming FUD! all the time. Wonder why I posted what I did weeks ago? This is exactly why - "FUD!" when the point is not only one that they simply don't agree on but one THEY CAN'T PROVE ANYWAY.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1132

Try reading for a change, instead of yelling "FUD!" like a damn broken Tickle Me Elmo doll, by clicking on the "View Results" link. The MAJORITY of people DO think that Vista sucks, while the minority think that while Vista does not suck it does indeed have a serious market image problem. I am not fully satisfied with this poll, as the symantics of the questions are not ideal, but the base validity of the responses may still stand. Note the commentary from the writer: that a large number of industry writers and pundits DO think that Vista "sucks" and this can be proven by a simple Google of "Vista sucks" (which is how I found that article in the first place). The Google results will show page after page of industry articles covering the "Vista sucks" topic including personal OpEds (fundamentally) saying "yes, Vista does suck".

Vista has problems but, thanks to people like you who believe any major critizism of Vista is "FUD", many fundamentals of the Vista package's failures may possibly never be addressed. Then again...considering that Microsoft has ALREADY shown early Windows7 demos apparently MICROSOFT, backhandledly, is admitting Vista is at the minimum a disappointment by showing the replacement just over 1 short year after Vista's market release - the shortest announcement and display of a replacement in Microsoft OS history.

That says a HELL of a lot for MICROSOFT'S confidence in Vista's long term market abilities.

I am asking, extremely respectfully, to stop using the term "FUD" - your continous use of the term simply degrades your continued believability to your opponents. If you have a point, make it with factual evidence via outside sources and refrain from using the [expletive] "FUD" for its continued overuse simply depreciates your arguments.

^
Oh my, 65% of 4,300 people think (or claim) that Vista really sucks.

Colour me impressed.
Meanwhile, millions (literally) are enjoying the system without issues. You really know how to drive a point home.

Meadows wrote:

^
Oh my, 65% of 4,300 people think (or claim) that Vista really sucks.

Colour me impressed.
Meanwhile, millions (literally) are enjoying the system without issues. You really know how to drive a point home.

Yet another one who can't RTFA. Did you bother to do the Google? No, I'm sure.

But what is 507,000 Google results of "Vista sucks" count for, anyway?

All of you, read this before you type any replies to the above posts.

Stop talking in circles. Find something new in Vista to bitch about. Say the new Ultimate downloads (new Dreamscene content?) for example.

Thank you for listening.

/mod

Meadows wrote:

^
Oh my, 65% of 4,300 people think (or claim) that Vista really sucks.

Well, if nothing else, this says Vista has a serious image problem, even if it doesn't *really* suck. Unless you can somehow prove that those 4,300 are woefully unrepresentative of the population at large.

Meadows wrote:

^
Oh my, 65% of 4,300 people think (or claim) that Vista really sucks.

How about 61% of 18,000 people.

Or how about this poll with 44,000 votes
http://www.pcstats.com/NewsViewRss.cfm?NewsID=68736

Overwhelmingly you answered - Do Nothing, WinXP Still Works!! (51.03%)

The rest answered along these lines:
Tried Vista, But I went Back To XP (23.35%)
Upgraded to Vista Ultimate and am happy (10.20%)
Upgraded to Vista Home Premium and I'm happy (7.75%)
I'll Try Vista Out, Then Decide (6.07%)
Upgraded to Vista Home Basic and I'm happy (1.61%)

A total of 44,702 votes were recorded in this multi-week po

Or how about this very mutli-page thread?

Plenty of proof out there to be found. Microsoft's on "Mojave Experiment" is the ultimate proof that they are having trouble pushing Vista.

Meadows wrote:

Yes, and I will laugh my ass off.
They'll have no idea what they'll be missing.

Other than gaming (which a console can easily fix) what will they be missing? Linux and Mac have more than enough applications for the majority of people.

just brew it! wrote:

This should not come as a surprise to anyone. All Windows versions and service packs since Windows 2000 have basically been incremental improvements (with temporary steps backward in some areas).

Will you still be rolling when a lot of those same people realize... holy crap, maybe I should just switch to Linux, or get a Mac?

I think that Vista was more than just "incremental" over Windows XP. It was a step forward by leaps and bounds.

Linux will always only have a small niche. At most it will have a home on netbooks. It has at least helped drive open source technology.

Mac is merely a fad. People who have money to throw away for something pretty at most. Mac OS is nothing special and certainly not very secure.

Flying Fox wrote:

All of you, read this before you type any replies to the above posts.

Stop talking in circles. Find something new in Vista to bitch about. Say the new Ultimate downloads (new Dreamscene content?) for example.

Thank you for listening.

/mod

Do people read these days?

Should I start nuking posts?

Maybe we need a new "OS Religion" forum"?

JonMCC33 wrote:

Mac is merely a fad. People who have money to throw away for something pretty at most. Mac OS is nothing special and certainly not very secure.

That is an extremely narrow minded view of the subject. The only reason Mac is not considered on many internet forum discussions is due to the fact that the average demographic of frequent forum users belongs to gamers - an area classically weak for Mac with no particularly stong interest in being developed, either.

Go walk into the graphics arts industry one day - from photographers to graphic design professionals, Mac is the computer of choice. PC is the minority in this situation and has been for a large number of years. Macs are very strong in the graphic arts industry and will probably continue to be for quite a while longer due to providing exactly what the graphic artists needs for high productivity and user experience.

Simply because Macs are not "in" with the gamer crowd does not mean that they are to be completely dismissed.

just brew it! wrote:

Maybe we need a new "OS Religion" forum"?

Tell me about it!

Face west in the mornings, young man!!

Flying Fox wrote:

Stop talking in circles. Find something new in Vista to bitch about. Say the new Ultimate downloads (new Dreamscene content?) for example.

You should just close this thread really. Dreamscene looks nice but has nothing to really offer. If they can make it something beyond just a looping video on the desktop it might be nice. I have Vista Ultimate x64 on my desktop and I don't even use Dreamscene.

Snake wrote:

Krogoth wrote:

When will this thread die?

Vista is most certainly not the ME 2.0 or disliked by the majority despite all of the FUD.

It is just a tiny, very vocal minority that attempts to keep the FUD alive. I know that change is annoying, but it is a fact of life.

Oh, PLEASE. With respect Krogoth stop being an annoying asshat who just goes around screaming FUD! all the time. Wonder why I posted what I did weeks ago? This is exactly why - "FUD!" when the point is not only one that they simply don't agree on but one THEY CAN'T PROVE ANYWAY.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1132

Try reading for a change, instead of yelling "FUD!" like a damn broken Tickle Me Elmo doll, by clicking on the "View Results" link. The MAJORITY of people DO think that Vista sucks, while the minority think that while Vista does not suck it does indeed have a serious market image problem. I am not fully satisfied with this poll, as the symantics of the questions are not ideal, but the base validity of the responses may still stand. Note the commentary from the writer: that a large number of industry writers and pundits DO think that Vista "sucks" and this can be proven by a simple Google of "Vista sucks" (which is how I found that article in the first place). The Google results will show page after page of industry articles covering the "Vista sucks" topic including personal OpEds (fundamentally) saying "yes, Vista does suck".

Vista has problems but, thanks to people like you who believe any major critizism of Vista is "FUD", many fundamentals of the Vista package's failures may possibly never be addressed. Then again...considering that Microsoft has ALREADY shown early Windows7 demos apparently MICROSOFT, backhandledly, is admitting Vista is at the minimum a disappointment by showing the replacement just over 1 short year after Vista's market release - the shortest announcement and display of a replacement in Microsoft OS history.

That says a HELL of a lot for MICROSOFT'S confidence in Vista's long term market abilities.

I am asking, extremely respectfully, to stop using the term "FUD" - your continous use of the term simply degrades your continued believability to your opponents. If you have a point, make it with factual evidence via outside sources and refrain from using the [expletive] "FUD" for its continued overuse simply depreciates your arguments.

Geez, you are really out of touch with the reality of the market. The mainstream (a.k.a majority) does not give a flying crap on what OS comes on their system as long it runs whatever they want without issues. Businesses are other hand only care if their upgrade has any significant ROI which Vista lacks in most segments. Hell, you could argue the same thing to this day with XP.

The only groups of people who are crying "OMFG VISTA SUCKS and MADE OF EPIC FAILURE" are a vocal minority of anti-M$, pro-*nix/pro-apple zealots. They are the source of current batch of FUD.

The image problem is not new at all. I remember the same BS with XP, 98, ME expect it did not get anywhere near the amount of online media exposure.

If Vista was such a failure, then why it is selling so well and adoption rate is rather solid despite some of Vista's known shortcomings?

Sorry, the whole "7" being the quickest project to be announced after release of the newest one is bogus. I remember Longhorn being announced not long after XP made its official depute, hell NT 5.0 a.k.a 2000 was on the board shortly after NT 4.0 was done. Major software companies always make plans for the next big step after completing a project.

Blog link (Zdnet = IT-related worker audience) and its voting counter are ironic. It proves how much of an impact the anti-Vista FUD has. IIRC, Zdnet were one of the big IT news groups that lambasted Vista in their review over tiny shortcomings that almost scream anti-M$ FUD.

I posted this in another thread but I don't remember anything like this before. The whole "downgrade program" giving virtually everyone a chance to ditch Vista and go to XP.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/win ... =205101355

If sluggish performance and numerous bugs in your shiny new PC running Windows Vista have got you down, you can downgrade -- at no additional cost -- to Windows XP. It's not hard. Here's how.

Snake wrote:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1132

The problem with polls is that it could be very inaccurate. Most people could be just voting that Vista sucks because it's cool to bash Microsoft. I'll bet many of those votes are from Mac and Linux users, while many more are from Windows XP users who have never even used Vista.

JonMCC33, I find Dreamscene really nice but I've had a few instances where it locked up my system. I've seen reports from other people on this problem.

NeXus 6 wrote:

The problem with polls is that it could be very inaccurate. Most people could be just voting that Vista sucks because it's cool to bash Microsoft. I'll bet many of those votes are from Mac and Linux users, while many more are from Windows XP users who have never even used Vista.

I agree with you on the poll thing. I base my view of the situation on multiple articles and forum posts, plus the huge public relations campaign MS has going on. Vista has problems. Maybe another SP or 2 will smooth things out. XP needed a few, I won't disagree with that.

JonMCC33, I find Dreamscene really nice but I've had a few instances where it locked up my system. I've seen reports from other people on this problem.

My problem was that a system crash would disable dreamscene.... WTF.

I did like the one with Vernal Falls as I hiked up there before and it's a really nice view.

PRIME1 wrote:

I posted this in another thread but I don't remember anything like this before. The whole "downgrade program" giving virtually everyone a chance to ditch Vista and go to XP.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/win ... =205101355

If sluggish performance and numerous bugs in your shiny new PC running Windows Vista have got you down, you can downgrade -- at no additional cost -- to Windows XP. It's not hard. Here's how.

Well, installing Vista on a system that just meets the requirements is going to run 'sluggish'. Dell and other OEMs were selling machines that could really only handle Vista basic.

As for bugs, that article was posted pre-SP1.

PRIME1 wrote:

I posted this in another thread but I don't remember anything like this before. The whole "downgrade program" giving virtually everyone a chance to ditch Vista and go to XP.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/win ... =205101355

If sluggish performance and numerous bugs in your shiny new PC running Windows Vista have got you down, you can downgrade -- at no additional cost -- to Windows XP. It's not hard. Here's how.

LOL! It really is a downgrade to go from Vista to XP!

JonMCC33 wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

This should not come as a surprise to anyone. All Windows versions and service packs since Windows 2000 have basically been incremental improvements (with temporary steps backward in some areas).

Will you still be rolling when a lot of those same people realize... holy crap, maybe I should just switch to Linux, or get a Mac?

I think that Vista was more than just "incremental" over Windows XP. It was a step forward by leaps and bounds.

Linux will always only have a small niche. At most it will have a home on netbooks. It has at least helped drive open source technology.

Mac is merely a fad. People who have money to throw away for something pretty at most. Mac OS is nothing special and certainly not very secure.

Wow talk about spreading FUD ! Mac is not very secure ? Must be all that spyware Mac users keep complaining about, oh wait..

You know, trying to use the argument of SECURITY against Mac OS while defending an MS os has to be one of the lamest things i've seen in a while. But hey, this thread must stay alive, right ?

Adi

adisor19 wrote:

blah...

Great, the resident Mac advocate is joining the party.

adisor, since you are new here I would just let you know about the rule of this thread. You are supposed to find something new in Vista to bitch about. UAC, Superfetch, Start Menu, Explorer have all been beaten to death. Fueling the flamewars is not supposed to happen.

Krogoth wrote:

Geez, you are really out of touch with the reality of the market. The mainstream (a.k.a majority) does not give a flying crap on what OS comes on their system as long it runs whatever they want without issues. Businesses are other hand only care if their upgrade has any significant ROI which Vista lacks in most segments. Hell, you could argue the same thing to this day with XP.

The only groups of people who are crying "OMFG VISTA SUCKS and MADE OF EPIC FAILURE" are a vocal minority of anti-M$, pro-*nix/pro-apple zealots. They are the source of current batch of FUD.

The image problem is not new at all. I remember the same BS with XP, 98, ME expect it did not get anywhere near the amount of online media exposure.

If Vista was such a failure, then why it is selling so well and adoption rate is rather solid despite some of Vista's known shortcomings?

Because, my good man, it is the usual problem - you making a claim with no solid facts to back it up.

Try this on for size:

Google results for Vista versus XP sales

Vista was claimed to be a sales "hit" by its maker...meanwhile, in the same sales quarters, XP sales SURGE and not only outsell Vista during the time when Microsoft claims "high initial demand"

http://news.cnet.com/Running-the-number ... 07375.html

simultaneous industry studies conclude that a major number of Vista users are returning ("downgrading") back to XP. For example, not only the 23.35% claimed in the aforementioned survey but 35% as per InfoWorld's Windows Sentinel data collection network

http://weblog.infoworld.com/sentinel/ar ... he_vi.html

So quoting Microsoft's claim of "100 million sales" only shows one side of the equation: that is, what the competition to Vista (read: Windows XP) was doing at the same time. And now, of course, continued statistical analysis is 'flawed' due to Microsoft forcefully removing the statistical competition from the marketplace - that is, forcefully killing XP and removing consumer choice in the matter.

Proving to you the Benjamin Disraeli / Mark Twain's classic: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics" when you do not utilize or understand both sides of a statistical equation during your search to find the truth.

Sorry, the whole "7" being the quickest project to be announced after release of the newest one is bogus. I remember Longhorn being announced not long after XP made its official depute, hell NT 5.0 a.k.a 2000 was on the board shortly after NT 4.0 was done. Major software companies always make plans for the next big step after completing a project.

There is a difference between "development announcement" and "initial product displays", one you should well recognize as the intelligent person you are. They are showing early Windows 7 developments now, at a time when Vista is only a year old. Announcing a replacement, which is years away in development is one thing, showing the replacement's components and parts of its upcoming functionality now AND rolling out pre-Beta releases is something completely different, never mind the rumors of Win7 being released as soon as next year.

Please do not play us for ignorant in understanding the level of difference there. The (professional) blogsphere already can read the implication: Vista was such a disappointment the replacement is being both rushed to market and dangled as a carrot

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wi ... rt=10&sa=N

Blog link (Zdnet = IT-related worker audience) and its voting counter are ironic. It proves how much of an impact the anti-Vista FUD has. IIRC, Zdnet were one of the big IT news groups that lambasted Vista in their review over tiny shortcomings that almost scream anti-M$ FUD.

See what I mean? Every opinion that is counter to your belief in Vista is labeled as "FUD". Please - just stop it. NOW. If you have nothing but the belief of "FUD" to counter arguments with the broken record turns excessively tiring.

Vista's main problem was with early adopters RE: the performance issue. The early release of Vista had a huge problem: users upgrading OS where accustomed to downgraded computer performance due to OS bloat. It was a given. The adopters of said new OS'es were used to having to upgrade hardware as well in order to achieve parity in new system performance versus their old systems.

However, Vista had a serious problem: some users would upgrade their hardware by two generations but Vista would perform no better than XP, and sometimes continue to perform worse.

This (seemingly) has been fixed with SP1 but the public relations damage has been done - Vista, in the marketplace for 1 year with seemingly poor performance for a goodly number of user implimentations, was branded as a loser.

Vista may not deserve that moniker now, thanks to SP1, but it is now fighting an uphill battle to overcome that intial market stigma. And make no mistake: market perceptions are just as important as reality in the consumer field. Those who do not believe or understand otherwise are FOOLS as history has constantly repeated itself in regards to this.

Note that Microsoft is now making perceived performance a target during the development of Windows 7; Microsoft will not make the same mistake twice in the initial rollout of the new OS.

Anyway, we are supposed to be adding new ideas to this discussion. I believe a redirect to Windows 7 is in order, as Vista's replacement is already being openly and widely discussed on the internet as well as pre-Beta versions being in the hands of testers. Therefore, the debate on Vista's validity and quality are all moot...the replacement is well on its way to hitting the market, maybe earlier than originally announced. Vista just may indeed end up being, historically, seen as "ME II" - simply a stopgap on the way to later OS's and a "questionable" market success at that, if the rumors of early Win7 release come to fruition.

Snake, is that a copy+paste from say, 20 pages ago?

I hope you get what I mean, and read my warning a few posts up. *wink* *wink*

/mod

adisor19 wrote:

Wow talk about spreading FUD ! Mac is not very secure ? Must be all that spyware Mac users keep complaining about, oh wait..

You know, trying to use the argument of SECURITY against Mac OS while defending an MS os has to be one of the lamest things i've seen in a while. But hey, this thread must stay alive, right ?

http://news.cnet.com/2100-7349_3-6178131.html

Like I said, not very secure. Not FUD but truth. Deal with it.

Now...back to Vista.

Flying Fox wrote:

Snake, is that a copy+paste from say, 20 pages ago?

I hope you get what I mean, and read my warning a few posts up. *wink* *wink*

/mod

Sorry. Was editing (adding the last paragraphs) as you spoke!!

Flying Fox wrote:

adisor19 wrote:

blah...

Great, the resident Mac advocate is joining the party.

adisor, since you are new here I would just let you know about the rule of this thread. You are supposed to find something new in Vista to bitch about. UAC, Superfetch, Start Menu, Explorer have all been beaten to death. Fueling the flamewars is not supposed to happen.

Thanks for the heads up ! I saw this in on the first page for like the 3rd day in a row and decided to see what's up. Low and behold, uncalled for Mac bashing was present which automatically triggered a reply from me.

Adi

JonMCC33 wrote:

adisor19 wrote:

Wow talk about spreading FUD ! Mac is not very secure ? Must be all that spyware Mac users keep complaining about, oh wait..

You know, trying to use the argument of SECURITY against Mac OS while defending an MS os has to be one of the lamest things i've seen in a while. But hey, this thread must stay alive, right ?

http://news.cnet.com/2100-7349_3-6178131.html

Like I said, not very secure. Not FUD but truth. Deal with it.

Now...back to Vista.

*sigh* So let's see here, Apple makes Safari out of WebKIT, an open source HTML engine. Some hacker spent hours to find a vulnerability in the source code, got his friend to surf to a specifically craftet website and was able to break in the computer.

The article also claims that :

"The successful attack on the second and final day of the contest required a conference organizer to surf to a malicious Web site using Safari on the MacBook--a type of attack familiar to Windows users. CanSecWest organizers relaxed the rules Friday after nobody at the event had breached either of the Macs on the previous day."

So in other words, without the user actually surfing that that website, the "attack" would have failed.

On one hand, the source cde of Safari/Webkit is freely available for everyone to read and they barely found this. On the other hand, the source code of IE is CLOSED SOURCE and NO ONE can read it, yet there were and still are sooooooo many security holes that are found in it. Think about this before you claim Mac OS is less secure compared to Windows.

Adi

JonMCC33 wrote:

LOL! It really is a downgrade to go from Vista to XP!

That would be Microsoft marketing speak. Anyone who falls in line behind that...... well I feel very sorry for them at the very least.

The point still stands that it was necessary to even have such a program because of overwhelming disappointment with Vista, especially compared to what they had with XP.

Looks like we have a winner. PRIME1 is the thread stopper.

Since you guys don't seem to have found something new in Vista to bitch about, and at a nice round number of 40 this is now a good time to lock this.

So if some other gerbil needs to vent about Vista, they won't get further opportunity. You guys have ruined it for him/her. Any new threads adding nothing to this so-called debate will be faced with summary lockage.

* LOCKED *