Am I crazy? New SFF build

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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:27 am

Airmantharp wrote: and that makes it very hard to recommend for an SFF/mATX solution focused on silence.


Where did I ever say that this had to be silent? ...still waiting.

Airmantharp wrote:More than likely you'll be having to use custom profiles to spin up the fan to control the heat, as the card will probably be recirculating it's own hot air to cool itself, causing it to heat up.


Already had to do this with an 8800 GTS in my SN25P. Poor drivers were never spinning the fan up to cool it. Cooked the first one. RivaTuner and some custom settings solved it the second time around.

Airmantharp wrote:If you do want a reference cooler, you might as well spend the extra $10 for the 4890. Otherwise your best solution would be just to grab a GTX260, as they don't have these cooling or noise issues.


Where are you finding it for 4890? Cheapest listing on newegg is $250, $60 more then the 4870. The GTX260 is under consideration but Nvidia has soured on me lately.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:07 pm

z-man wrote:The GTX260 is under consideration but Nvidia has soured on me lately.

It won't be that sour anymore if you try to drink some of that Koolaid. 3D vision! :lol:
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:18 pm

z-man wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
chasscF1 wrote:With the placement of the CPU socket on that board, I think you might be better off with a CPU cooler setup like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835608007 that would hopefully blow out the side venting of that case. I don't think you'll have issues with heat, but be prepared for noise and lots of dust in your heatsinks and fans. I used a 125W processor in my Shuttle SN26P that used to be my main rig, but that had a slightly better cooling setup than the sugo case.


These guys are talking about low-profile and mATX cases, would that Noctua fit? I admit it would be perfect if it did, there is none quieter that also comes as an effective all-in-one package for LGA1366.


In a word: no



My point was that the setup should look like that. I wouldn't go with a cooler blowing towards the top of the case, but rather something drawing air in one side and out the other, since there is a lot of ventilation on the sides.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:41 pm

chasscF1 wrote:My point was that the setup should look like that. I wouldn't go with a cooler blowing towards the top of the case, but rather something drawing air in one side and out the other, since there is a lot of ventilation on the sides.


Understood, unfortunately it wasn't designed for that, nor do I want to spend a lot of time and effort modding a case. If the CPU was placed in the front I could see it, but in the back like that the GPU is going to be blocking air flow from the other side.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:03 pm

Flying Fox wrote:It won't be that sour anymore if you try to drink some of that Koolaid. 3D vision! :lol:


lol, wow, I totally missed that thread. Glad that I did.

It's their drivers that have soured me. I could care less about the rest. Granted I did consider the 260 since it was in my price range.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:51 pm

z-man wrote:Still if I don't go i7 I am looking at that SP45H7, the one you linked has onboard vid which I don't need.

I was going for parity with the Gigabyte board (which also has onboard video). :)

Best of luck to you in your build. My opinion: you're crazy! (hey, you asked! :))
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:18 pm

Generally when I talk about a 4870, I refer to a 4870 1GB with the reference cooling design; when not overclocked, this is the best possible cooler available for a variety of reasons. If noise isn't an issue and the user will be using a well ventilated case, things that usually go together, then I would recommend the Saphire that JAE has, it's cheap and effective if you don't mind keeping it ventilated. Also keep in mind that generally, more heat creates and issue that usually has to be addressed with more cooling, which usually means more noise. My building philosophy is to reduce heat and noise as much as possible, and to me the ideal computer is the one that you cannot tell whether it is on just by noise alone.

Here is the 4870 I am talking about, at $239: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150352
It's the cheapest 4870 available that has the stock cooler. 4890's, with their slightly louder stock cooling, cost only $10 more, and the GTX275 only $10 more than that... the GTX260 is only $180, $50 cheaper than the other solutions mentioned, and seems to be the best choice. But, if you are having issues with Nvidia's drivers, I understand going with an AMD solution and even paying more for it, I also value products that just work, but I believe driver issues with Nvidia's products, outside of the cooling issue you mentioned, and that may be a special case, are very rare indeed. I haven't had any driver related issues with my GTX260, nor the 8800GTS 640MB that preceded it, and neither have several people I know that have that card and other Nvidia cards before them. AMD tends to have more reported driver and compatibility issues, but I admit that there's no real way to prove that.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:45 pm

Airmantharp wrote:and to me the ideal computer is the one that you cannot tell whether it is on just by noise alone.


Did I say I wanted loud? Listen I recall all to well the 60mm fans on 1Ghz Athlons, **** screamers, I went through a lot of trouble to get 90mm fans on them to bring the noise levels to a very tolerable level. Considering the fact that I am thinking quad here. I expect some noise. Heck my SN25P, 8800GTS AMD X2 isn't silent, but what noise it does make doesn't bother me. It hums but doesn't scream.

As for the Nvidia issue, how the hell do you write a driver that doesn't spin up the fan when the unit comes under load?!? Seriously, heat is the biggest issue with GPUs but the fan stays @ 30% of top speed when gaming? Not to mention I had to fuss with Rivatuner until I could get it to work with my driver rev, so I could see the temps. Add to the fact that my previous 7800GT died (I presume from heat over 2 years of use) due to the fact that it was a single slot card and cooler, in an SFF case. When I replaced it I put in the dual slot 8800GTS, only to have it die of overheating in less then 2.5 weeks. Hence my reluctance to buy them right now. Plus the last two ATI cards I have owned never had an issue, and one is still in full time operation 6 years now.

Oh, add to that, I have a PCIe 2.0 card in a 1.0 slot. BIOS updates, firmware updates, etc have not solved the issue that when I fully power off my box I have to remove the video card, replace it with an old ATI x300, boot, shutdown, swap cards again, and boot. Otherwise the system refuses to post with the GTS in it first time around. Fortunately for me I hardly ever shut the darn thing off. But no amount of work or support calls have been able to resolve it.

So while I am not saying no to Nvidia, they aren't exactly tops on my list.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:01 pm

eitje wrote:I was going for parity with the Gigabyte board (which also has onboard video). :)


lol, you're right. I missed it because if you look at the spec list on newegg it doesn't list a video chipset. But it does list the ports. That is why I wasn't thinking it had one.

eitje wrote:Best of luck to you in your build. My opinion: you're crazy! (hey, you asked! :))


Never claimed I wasn't. :wink:
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:38 pm

You took that statement out of context :).

The ideal personal computer, to me, is silent. If I can take a step in that direction or one away, I will take a step in the direction of silence, and my recommendations will reflect that, unless the post I am responding to is from someone that specifically states that silence is not their goal. And yes, I remember the loudness of coolers past, specifically a thing called a 'Thermoengine' that had a 7000RPM 60mm fan on it. It went alongside those 1GHz Athlons, and the Durons that were based on them that we overclocked the hell out of. History is something that I am not bereft of :).

I am interested in what you're doing, like many here, trying to put a lot of power into a small space the best way possible. The SN25P you mentioned was a case that I wanted, but decided it wasn't worth the cost and troubles, and had gotten away from the lanparty scene that would make it's size advantageous. I do not look forward to moving my P180, I should put it on a scale, lol.

I honestly wonder which would be best- beyond theory and in practice- for an SFF environment. I do think that Nvidia has an edge with the GTX260, based on price, but I wonder if the stock cooled 4870 would fare better. They're both hot cards that suck a lot of power compared to a few generations back; about the same really, even with the difference in die sizes. They're so evenly matched as to be almost interchangeable; so it really comes down to nitpicking. But I'll stop here, let us know what you choose and how it fares!
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:58 am

Airmantharp wrote:You took that statement out of context :).


No I didn't. I understood your goal of having a slient computer. I simply replied that in this case (placing a quad and a beefy GPU in an SFF case) some additional heat removal is going to be necessary. I expect some noise, don't mind it, but as long as it isn't stupid loud I am fine with it. I think I made that perfectly clear. Your suggestions are appreciated but silence isn't the main goal. Cramming a lot of hardware into a small space is, compromises will have to be made.

As for the SN25P, I've liked it, but I think the single slot cooler on the 7800GT being in such a small space didn't give it enough air flow and it slowly cooked the card. It did last 2 year but that was the first time I have ever had a failed vid card.

Lastly I found a user on a SFF forum who is running an i7 920 in a SG01, I have emailed him to find out what exactly he is using and how the experience has been. I'll post more when I have it.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:05 am

I agree, just saying that I was sharing my perspective :). Applied here it means just trying to find quiet ways to do stuff if you can! If you're not careful, going for cooling first may wind you up with a setup that's much louder than you're willing to deal with. As I said, it's a philosophy. And please let us know what your contact says; If I could fit all of that into an mATX footprint, that might be irresistible for my next build!
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:01 am

UberGerbil wrote:
z-man wrote: My concern would be gaming performance in a VM.
You're thinking about gaming in a VM?

Just finished some Ballance in Virtualbox, works great. They use Wine to wrap DirectX to OpenGL and have their own OpenGL acceleration already built-in. It works pretty smooth actually. :)
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:04 am

sub.mesa wrote:Just finished some Ballance in Virtualbox, works great. They use Wine to wrap DirectX to OpenGL and have their own OpenGL acceleration already built-in. It works pretty smooth actually. :)


Skipped the part where I am using VMware did we? Licensed for it at work so bringing VMs home will be much easier. Not saying anything bad about virtual box, but I am going to go with the tools I already have.

Build update. The dude is doing it with a stock intel cooler!?! :o

His gear:
SST-STO1f
X58T3H6 Lan Party Jr mobo
6gigs OCZ1333Ram
Silverstone750Strider PSU
Intel i7 920cpu
XFX Radeon HD4870 1gig GFXcard
Sony BD-DVD

He hasn't had any heat issues and the box has been running for around 3 months. So I am going to do it. I might adjust the GPU simply cause I know the issues I had prior with substandard cooling and I might put a little bigger PSU in there. But we are going full boar I should have the order in by tonight.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:12 am

z-man wrote:
sub.mesa wrote:Just finished some Ballance in Virtualbox, works great. They use Wine to wrap DirectX to OpenGL and have their own OpenGL acceleration already built-in. It works pretty smooth actually. :)


Skipped the part where I am using VMware did we? Licensed for it at work so bringing VMs home will be much easier. Not saying anything bad about virtual box, but I am going to go with the tools I already have.
I think his point is that if he can play the stuff on VirtualBox there is no reason you can't play some games in a VM (in general). I have seen 3D support working in VMware so you should be fine.

z-man wrote:He hasn't had any heat issues and the box has been running for around 3 months. So I am going to do it. I might adjust the GPU simply cause I know the issues I had prior with substandard cooling and I might put a little bigger PSU in there. But we are going full boar I should have the order in by tonight.

So you are going with an i7 in your box?
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:28 am

Flying Fox wrote:I think his point is that if he can play the stuff on VirtualBox there is no reason you can't play some games in a VM (in general). I have seen 3D support working in VMware so you should be fine.


I got his point, but I think I am going to pass on the gaming in a VM

Flying Fox wrote:So you are going with an i7 in your box?


Yes, yes I am. :D
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:10 am

Good fun, let us know what parts you wind up with and how the build goes!
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:36 pm

Looks like I might be staying with the green team. The GTX 260 runs 10 degrees cooler (on average) under load than the 4870. Consider what I am about to do this could mean a lot.

I guess I could always look on the bright side. I am already familar with Nvidia quirks as apposed to ATI. :D :roll: :wink:
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:01 pm

My recommendation for the GTX260 is based on price; I'm not sure that the card itself registering a higher temperature actually means that it would heat up your case more (or less). I don't question your sources, but, as I understand it both GTX260's and the 4870 1GB's draw about the same amount of power, the GTX260 a little less at idle, and that would mean that their potential heat radiated should be about the same. I guess if the numbers you are referencing are correct, then maybe the 4870's are radiating more heat instead of exhausting the heat, relative to a GTX260? We should be comparing with the stock cooler on the 4870 1GB, as the only custom cooler available that fully exhausts air used for cooling also has reports of it radiating quite a bit of heat as well as being louder for no apparent reason, which should allow us to find multiple sources for 'card temperature'. I'm responding mostly because in the reading of your thread and contemplation of your goal I considered using the different card's heat outputs as a point to argue one way or the other, but I wasn't sure it was a reasonable distinguishing variable. What do you think?
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:35 am

Sorry was a little busy this weekend. As for the heat thing, not sure. I was just looking over some reviews that had temps in them. TR being one and noticed that the 260 was coming in cooler.

It isn't a determining factor just food for thought. I am going to look at it more today now that I have time to again.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:47 am

FYI the 260 is pretty long so it may not fit in a SFF.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:20 am

PRIME1 wrote:FYI the 260 is pretty long so it may not fit in a SFF.


Pretty long doesn't give me any specifics, but how much longer can it be over a 4870? Which will fit in the case that I getting. FYI it is a little longer and wider then the typical XPC shuttle makes.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:27 am

General reports put it an 10.5"? About an inch longer than the 4870 I believe.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:40 pm

Airmantharp wrote:General reports put it an 10.5"? About an inch longer than the 4870 I believe.


You would be correct. Though finding dimensions proved tricky. 9.5 for a 4870 and 10.5 for a 260.

I have been able to find pictures of an 8800 GTS in a SG01 which is 10.5 in length, with room to spare. Plus the case is wider to allow the card to miss the drive cage. Not to mention the case is 15.5 inches deep. Take an inch off for fluff and I should still have room.

I'm thinking this the way I am going to go.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:29 am

You know, when I first saw the mATX X58 boards I started thinking about doing this, and this morning I tried putting a wishlist together at the Egg. Aside from trying to decide between the Silverstone and Thermaltake cases, price leaning heavily in Thermaltake's direction, I had a really hard time looking for a cooler!

If you search for just 1366 HSF's, there are nine options that come up and many that look like they will fit; but none look like they would outperform the stock HSF that Intel provides. If the PSU is the CPU HSF vent, then I would just leave the stock HSF, but maybe turn the fan around so that it blows up?
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:35 am

The heatsink suppliers are starting to update their products for the LGA1366 socket. If you're seriously researching this, it might be worth going down the list of low-profile heatsinks over at FrostyTech to see which, if any, are now compatible. (Though "compatible" and "sufficient to keep an i7 cool in a SFF case" are too separate things, of course). There are some around, and CoolerMaster apparently has updated its brackets to work with the i7, so the low-profile GeminII S might work. But I'd do a lot of research, and hopefully find someone else who has successfully done this, before jumping in. Unless you're willing to (potentially) blow some cash being the pioneer (and suffering the arrows of misfortune that go along with it). I'm sure others here will be interested in whatever you discover.

(For someone who really wants to be a pioneer, I'd suggest trying to use a rig like this, probably by cutting a vent hole for it at whatever place on the case that works).
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:16 pm

UberGerbil wrote:The heatsink suppliers are starting to update their products for the LGA1366 socket. If you're seriously researching this, it might be worth going down the list of low-profile heatsinks over at FrostyTech to see which, if any, are now compatible. (Though "compatible" and "sufficient to keep an i7 cool in a SFF case" are too separate things, of course). There are some around, and CoolerMaster apparently has updated its brackets to work with the i7, so the low-profile GeminII S might work. But I'd do a lot of research, and hopefully find someone else who has successfully done this, before jumping in. Unless you're willing to (potentially) blow some cash being the pioneer (and suffering the arrows of misfortune that go along with it). I'm sure others here will be interested in whatever you discover.

(For someone who really wants to be a pioneer, I'd suggest trying to use a rig like this, probably by cutting a vent hole for it at whatever place on the case that works).


One of the Newegg reviewers quotes a max clearance of 70mm in the Silverstone case- the Gemenii IIS you linked above is 88mm! I think that finding something decent other than the stock Intel HSF is going to be difficult, unfortunately, and if the stock one works, I'd honestly just stick with that. You can certainly get some moderate overclocking out of it, but if you don't, it's still one of the quietest around. As for that self-contained water cooling system, that would be nice, but I think there would be significant issues fitting that in an SFF case- you'd need a 120mm vent nearby and I don't think any of the cases I've see, of the mATX 'Lanbox'/Shuttle configuration variety that the OP is considering.
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Canon EOS-M|11-22/4-5.6 IS STM|22/2 STM|EF-M 18-55/3.5-5.6 IS STM|
Airmantharp
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:06 pm

Airmantharp wrote:One of the Newegg reviewers quotes a max clearance of 70mm in the Silverstone case- the Gemenii IIS you linked above is 88mm!
Which is why I emphasized research. It may be doable, it may not be, I don't know.
As for that self-contained water cooling system, that would be nice, but I think there would be significant issues fitting that in an SFF case- you'd need a 120mm vent nearby and I don't think any of the cases I've see, of the mATX 'Lanbox'/Shuttle configuration variety that the OP is considering.
Which is why I specifically mentioned cutting the case -- there are cases where you can find a 120mm square area, such as on the top. Or you could mod something like the Silverstone Sugo SG05: put the radiator at the front, with the fan blowing out, and then mount additional 120mm fans along the side vents blowing in (since the PSU is also venting out). Or if that is too weird, you could probably put the radiator along the side vents with a bit of metal work.
UberGerbil
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:01 pm

I was thinking of actually buying everything sans the heatsink. Then see how much room I actually have, then by one. Like I said worst case scenario I can always fall back to Silverstone's TJ08 mini tower. Also in the case of the SG01 I was planing to have the PSU pull air up away from whatever heatsink I use. If I have enough room I figured to use an additional fan over the heatsink

And trust me I've been scouring heatsink sites like crazy.
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Re: Am I crazy? New SFF build

Postposted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:18 pm

z-man wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:General reports put it an 10.5"? About an inch longer than the 4870 I believe.
You would be correct. Though finding dimensions proved tricky. 9.5 for a 4870 and 10.5 for a 260.
Take a look at this photo:
http://www.techreport.com/image.x/hd489 ... h-1600.jpg

Radeon HD4890 cards (and Radeon HD4870 1 GiB) are 9½" long. GeForce GTX 260 cards (and GeForce GTX 275 and Radeon HD3870X2) are 10½" long. The latter cards are too long to fit into my Asus TM-210 micro-ATX case.
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