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I have liked dell monitors a very long time. The first one I fell in love with was the 2000FP. I bought a 2001FP in 2004 for school. It served me very well until I needed to sell it to help finance an engagement ring (which I am 2 months from paying off!).

My dad and I built a computer for my mom. We pulled out all of the IQ stops and bought a 2007FP monitor. I still haven't seen a monitor I like as much as that one, but I strongly desire a 1920x1200 monitor after spending countless hours with them in the labs at school.

The 2209WA looks great, but I don't like buying monitors, so I want to do it very rarely. It's hard to buy a 1680x1050 monitor when I know I want the extra space. I do like how they've cheapened IPS to that low of a price though. A cheap IPS will always beat an expensive TN for my use, and I always recommend against a TN for people who don't play games on a low budget. I expect my monitors to last 5+ years of great use, so I'm a little more inclined to buy a decent monitor than, say, an expensive processor.

And then there is the U2410. WANT! It's out of reach though at $600. So Mr. Dell, I urge you to put this monitor on discount like you often have offered in the past for your other top notch monitors. I am sad that your discounts are fewer between these days, so here's a hope for a nice black Friday.

Is this more like a BP thread? I am not sure so I'll leave it for now.

SpotTheCat wrote:

And then there is the U2410. WANT! It's out of reach though at $600. So Mr. Dell, I urge you to put this monitor on discount like you often have offered in the past for your other top notch monitors. I am sad that your discounts are fewer between these days, so here's a hope for a nice black Friday.

The U2410 had a 20% discount ($479) for about ten days earlier in the month, right after it was available (and before most people had heard of it or knew how good it was). There will be another sale eventually. You could also keep your eye on the Dell Outlet for refurbished models; they have a Twitter feed as well.

SpotTheCat wrote:

...but I strongly desire a 1920x1200 monitor after spending countless hours with them in the labs at school.

Dang, it's definitely been a while since I have been in the labs where you go to school.... Last time I had a class in there, we were using gigantic CRTs!

The price breaks and coupons are bound to happen and, if history is any indication, the first revisions will have kinks that need to be ironed out anyway. In the mean time, the 2408WFP has the same screen real estate and has dropped under $400 on occasion. It's not IPS but VA panels are still better than TN ones.

torax wrote:

SpotTheCat wrote:

...but I strongly desire a 1920x1200 monitor after spending countless hours with them in the labs at school.

Dang, it's definitely been a while since I have been in the labs where you go to school.... Last time I had a class in there, we were using gigantic CRTs!

I haven't been there in a while either, I graduated in the summer of '08.

My intention was half BP half visual haven.

UberGerbil wrote:

SpotTheCat wrote:

And then there is the U2410. WANT! It's out of reach though at $600. So Mr. Dell, I urge you to put this monitor on discount like you often have offered in the past for your other top notch monitors. I am sad that your discounts are fewer between these days, so here's a hope for a nice black Friday.

The U2410 had a 20% discount ($479) for about ten days earlier in the month, right after it was available (and before most people had heard of it or knew how good it was). There will be another sale eventually. You could also keep your eye on the Dell Outlet for refurbished models; they have a Twitter feed as well.

I think I would need to see it a little bit lower than that to bite. I was thinking $450 was a lot of money, let alone approaching 500. Thanks for the links though, very helpful.

SpotTheCat wrote:

UberGerbil wrote:

SpotTheCat wrote:

And then there is the U2410. WANT! It's out of reach though at $600. So Mr. Dell, I urge you to put this monitor on discount like you often have offered in the past for your other top notch monitors. I am sad that your discounts are fewer between these days, so here's a hope for a nice black Friday.

The U2410 had a 20% discount ($479) for about ten days earlier in the month, right after it was available (and before most people had heard of it or knew how good it was). There will be another sale eventually. You could also keep your eye on the Dell Outlet for refurbished models; they have a Twitter feed as well.

I think I would need to see it a little bit lower than that to bite. I was thinking $450 was a lot of money, let alone approaching 500. Thanks for the links though, very helpful.

Monitor is a longer term buy, skimp everything else to stretch your budget. To me it gives more utility than things like a faster video card because you stare at the thing whenever you use the computer, while gaming is only a portion of the time.

So why don't you go for the 2408WFP? I have one and it's awesome. It has a myriad of inputs, IPS panel and 1920x1200 res. What's even better is that they occasionally dip under $400 on Dell's website. What's not to love?

Synchromesh wrote:

So why don't you go for the 2408WFP? I have one and it's awesome. It has a myriad of inputs, IPS panel and 1920x1200 res. What's even better is that they occasionally dip under $400 on Dell's website. What's not to love?

I'm pretty sure that all 2408WFPs are PVA screens. To me at least, the jump from PVA to IPS is well worth the extra cash. Not that I can afford either of those monitors, mind you...

MixedPower wrote:

Synchromesh wrote:

So why don't you go for the 2408WFP? I have one and it's awesome. It has a myriad of inputs, IPS panel and 1920x1200 res. What's even better is that they occasionally dip under $400 on Dell's website. What's not to love?

I'm pretty sure that all 2408WFPs are PVA screens. To me at least, the jump from PVA to IPS is well worth the extra cash. Not that I can afford either of those monitors, mind you...

Ah, looks like you're right, it's is PVA. Is SIPS that much better?

Synchromesh wrote:

Ah, looks like you're right, it's is PVA. Is SIPS that much better?

Everyone's eyes are different. The 'black crush' issue of PVA monitors is really problematic for me when looking at darker pictures, and a lot of shadow detail is lost in movies and video games (I'm sure there's a Doom 3 joke or two in there somewhere). Plus, some colors shift dramatically if viewed from an off-center angle. Other people may not be as sensitive to it or just don't use their monitors in a way that highlights the issue that much, though.

MixedPower wrote:

Synchromesh wrote:

Ah, looks like you're right, it's is PVA. Is SIPS that much better?

Everyone's eyes are different. The 'black crush' issue of PVA monitors is really problematic for me when looking at darker pictures, and a lot of shadow detail is lost in movies and video games (I'm sure there's a Doom 3 joke or two in there somewhere). Plus, some colors shift dramatically if viewed from an off-center angle. Other people may not be as sensitive to it or just don't use their monitors in a way that highlights the issue that much, though.

Agreed. I've used all 3, and to me, *VA is hardly better than TN (and in fact, there are several TN panels these days which are a lot better than many *VA monitors).

Definitely don't like the black crush, it's especially problematic in dark games like the FEAR series, L4D, Dead Space, Riddick, etc. The horizontal contrast shift is also annoying. And don't forget the input lag on *VA, which is usually a non-issue on IPS and TN panels. The simple answer (which turns out to be not so simple) is that you can't judge a monitor by panel type alone. It always helps to compare them side by side - sadly, that's often impossible.

I have a pair of the HP LP2475W monitors. The Dell U2410 uses a new revision of the same basic LG IPS panel used by the HP. From what I've heard -- haven't seen one yet, but have several friends who've already made the U2410 purchase -- it's a beauty and well worth the financial pain. Do NOT scrimp on your monitor. Drop down a GHz or so, buy only 2 sticks of memory -- whatever it tales, but do NOT scrimp on your monitor. Your eyes will appreciate it.

I have the DS-245W(s-pva), no major issues. plays games fine.
However, it's probably 73% ntsc?, and not using W-CCFL backlighting.
I've been wanting a second one, but prices have skyrocketed, with supply dropping off.
Now it's either the HP LP2475W, or U2410.
Don't know which is better, hopefully there'll be a sale black friday or something.

edh wrote:

Do NOT scrimp on your monitor. Drop down a GHz or so, buy only 2 sticks of memory -- whatever it tales, but do NOT scrimp on your monitor. Your eyes will appreciate it.

Well, within reason of course, no way should we recommend dropping from 2.4GHz to 1.4GHz (Atom omgwtfbbq), or worst, getting a DEER power supply.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Now it's either the HP LP2475W, or U2410.
Don't know which is better, hopefully there'll be a sale black friday or something.

From what I've read the U2410 uses the same panel as the HP2475W, although I'm not sure if the HP uses the newest revision like Dell does. The Dell has an sRGB mode that pretty much eliminates the color issues with wide gamut displays.

MixedPower wrote:

l33t-g4m3r wrote:

Now it's either the HP LP2475W, or U2410.
Don't know which is better, hopefully there'll be a sale black friday or something.

From what I've read the U2410 uses the same panel as the HP2475W, although I'm not sure if the HP uses the newest revision like Dell does. The Dell has an sRGB mode that pretty much eliminates the color issues with wide gamut displays.

Strictly from memory, but I found separate reviews that showed the U2410 as having very little input lag, versus another showing the 2475W having significant input lag. Input lag is a big deal to me, and makes the Dell worth it, should I not want to spend more and go for a 26" Planar. I'd rather have ghosting and very little input lag than little ghosting and significant input lag, like the PVA panels and HP/NEC IPS, any day of the week.

Flying Fox wrote:

Monitor is a longer term buy, skimp everything else to stretch your budget. To me it gives more utility than things like a faster video card because you stare at the thing whenever you use the computer, while gaming is only a portion of the time.

This is very true. I spent close to $1K back in '94 for a 21" CRT that was capable of (at the time unbelievable) 1600x1200, and had to buy a top-of-the-line Matrox card to drive it at that resolution (about the only card then that could), but it lasted me more than decade while I replaced every other component multiple times (even the desk it sits on). I don't regret that purchase at all.

Voldenuit wrote:

Agreed. I've used all 3, and to me, *VA is hardly better than TN (and in fact, there are several TN panels these days which are a lot better than many *VA monitors).

Can you give some examples? Every TN panel I've seen has suffered from violent and (to me) unacceptable color shifts from off-axis viewing, especially along the short axis (up and down on a widescreen). This is exacerbated by larger panels, since the corners are at enough of an angle when your eyes are at the center of the screen that it shows up even without moving your head. (And it makes most TN panels useless in the portrait orientation for anything but B&W text).

Input lag can be as much about the internal processing as the panel type, so the same panel can have different lag when used by different mfrs (or from revision to revision by the same mfr).

The simple answer (which turns out to be not so simple) is that you can't judge a monitor by panel type alone. It always helps to compare them side by side - sadly, that's often impossible.

Yes, especially when you're dealing with mail-order companies like Dell. I used to go into Fry's and compare monitors but it's hard to find anything but TN there anymore. Ultimately you have to go by reviews (factoring in biases of the reviewers), take a deep breath, and buy from a company that has a liberal return policy.

I dropped $400 on my last monitor and honestly wish I would have spent more and went with an IPS panel screen (though at the time I had other features I needed more). The U2410 is looking like the perfect replacement. $400 and 3 years of use... MUCH better value than any other component in any computer I've had. Monitors are always worth spending the little extra for in my experience.

UberGerbil wrote:

Can you give some examples? Every TN panel I've seen has suffered from violent and (to me) unacceptable color shifts from off-axis viewing, especially along the short axis (up and down on a widescreen). This is exacerbated by larger panels, since the corners are at enough of an angle when your eyes are at the center of the screen that it shows up even without moving your head. (And it makes most TN panels useless in the portrait orientation for anything but B&W text).

I'd love to strictly use IPS panels, I'd settle for VA panels in a heartbeat, but for 99% of all users out there the 'violent' color shifts are hardly even noticeable. If you're doing color-accurate work, you already know and have what you need, but otherwise, the expense outweighs the benefits tremendously. But to give an example, I have a co-worker using two wide-screen Dell TN panels in portrait mode side by side, and for the life of me I can't see a downside to his setup, it works great. Another example would be my Hanns-G 28" panel at home, which would fit your bill of being big enough to show the color shifts from one position, and while it certainly does, I don't find this to be a real problem, and I'm not distracted by it while gaming or otherwise.

Input lag can be as much about the internal processing as the panel type, so the same panel can have different lag when used by different mfrs (or from revision to revision by the same mfr).

Definitely; the HP 2475W has been shown to have significant input lag, in line with PVA panels like Dells 2408 and Samsungs 244T, with an excellent IPS screen attached. NEC's uber-expensive professional IPS monitors reportedly suffer the same problem, but Dells new U2410 and Planar's 26" IPS, as well as most 30" IPS screens, seem to escape excessive input lag. This is why I'm excited about the U2410, as it's now the cheapest IPS 1080P+ monitor that doesn't suffer from high input lag, making it a very nice screen for all flavors of work and entertainment at a reasonable cost.

UberGerbil wrote:

Can you give some examples? Every TN panel I've seen has suffered from violent and (to me) unacceptable color shifts from off-axis viewing, especially along the short axis (up and down on a widescreen). This is exacerbated by larger panels, since the corners are at enough of an angle when your eyes are at the center of the screen that it shows up even without moving your head. (And it makes most TN panels useless in the portrait orientation for anything but B&W text).

TNs have historically poor vertical viewing angles. However, my experience with modern TN panels (using a Dell S2309W as we speak) is that their vertical viewing angles are much better than they used to be. While there is still some color shift with vertical travel, colors no longer invert, and it is not noticeable until I move more than 30-40 degrees off axis. Also, whites no longer turn yellow with vertical movement as they did in the old days.

My old monitor (on a previous build) was a Gateway FPD2485W, which used an S-PVA matrix, and the gamma level would change depending on horizontal angle. This is quite a common occurence on *VA matrices, and is colloquially called 'gamma shift'. As the monitor is wider than it is tall, it is more noticeable in daily usage than the vertical contrast shift of TN matrices, and it wouls show up when my head was static across the width of the panel, and even more markedly whenever I moved my head. It also scored poorer on gamut and gradient testing (using the lagom test page) than the Dell 2309W, despite using a 8 bit panel. Banding was quite evident in colour gradients on the Gateway, and the black level test had the darkest 4 squares indistinguishable from each other (part of the black level crush common to *VA matrices). Lastly, despite the Gateway having one of the lowest measured input lag of *VA matrices, it was still slightly laggier than the Dell in gaming.

By contrast, the Dell (despite a really poor calibration menu system) managed to resolve all colour bands on the lagom test, and produces a smooth gradient with no visible banding or dithering (quite a feat with a 6-bit panel I'll have to say). It also does much better at the black saturation test, although it fails the white saturation test quite badly, failing to resolve 5 squares. It also shows visible colour change on the viewing angle test, but as I mentioned, it is not obvious in day to day use.

In closing, the Gateway cost twice as much as an equivalent Dell TN (I didn't get a 24" this time because of limited desk space), but it was of comparable quality. After using a *VA matrix for 2 years (and appreciating what a vast improvement it was over my old TN monitor), I was expecting to have to drop my standards down when I bought the Dell, but to my surprise, the technology had improved by quite a bit during the interim. Since I was buying the new monitor primarily for my parents' computer, I figured the extra quality of an 8-bit panel would have been lost on them, so I was pleasantly surprised to find that it met my own needs very well (gaming, hd movies, picture viewing, web, office work and coding).

I still wouldn't use or recommend a TN monitor for any colour accuracy sensitive tasks, but I'd be equally leery of using a *VA matrix for such a task. We had a 30" Dell (3007 iirc?) at work, and while we haven't used it for any colour sensitive work either (mainly used for CAD), it is a very nice piece of kit. Of course, it is also far out of the budget of mot users. While I used to universally recommend that people get an 8-bit panel over a TN (usually meaning a *VA for cost/availability reasons, and often meaning second-tier brands like Doublesight even then), I am no longer so blithe about which constitutes the superior experience.

but Dells new U2410 and Planar's 26" IPS, as well as most 30" IPS screens, seem to escape excessive input lag.

It hasn't been a problem I've noticed on my 3008wfp. It offers a gaming mode that disables all the post processing, but frankly it looks terrible and I'm failing to see the benefit I get.

Voldenuit wrote:

TNs have historically poor vertical viewing angles. However, my experience with modern TN panels (using a Dell S2309W as we speak) is that their vertical viewing angles are much better than they used to be. While there is still some color shift with vertical travel, colors no longer invert, and it is not noticeable until I move more than 30-40 degrees off axis. Also, whites no longer turn yellow with vertical movement as they did in the old days.

Interesting stuff, thanks. I guess I haven't been keeping up; I had looked at TN from time to time in the past and didn't think there was room for improvement.

That Dell S2309W is also on sale this weekend (in the US) for $169, BTW.

The SP2309W is significantly more expensive, but it is 2048x1152 (and includes a webcam. Uh, woo). That's pretty nice, actually (tight .249 pitch) but probably not worth the extra money. I could've sworn the Dell page was showing the higher resolution in a cheaper model without the webcam, but I guess I was misreading it.

Meanwhile the 24" 1080 (which may or may not be as good) is $219 -- which is pretty remarkable, because a year ago it was a sensation when a bare-bones 24" TN monitor dropped to $300.

Ryu Connor wrote:

It hasn't been a problem I've noticed on my 3008wfp. It offers a gaming mode that disables all the post processing, but frankly it looks terrible and I'm failing to see the benefit I get.

If the 3008's gaming mode is like the one on the U2410, it's using an inferior color profile to reduce input lag. Assuming this is the case, if you don't notice a difference in lag between gaming and sRGB modes you should just stick with sRGB.

FYI: the U2410 is currently $50 off ($549) and most of the other panels have discounts as well ($100 off the 2408, etc).

I wouldn't consider these "hot deals" but those of you who expressed interest in these monitors might want to keep your eyes peeled -- I suspect Dell will be doing a lot more of this over the next couple of months.

black friday and the shopping season is coming up
if you can wait do so

I can and will. Here's to a good IPS monitor season!

I will say though, although the Dell U2410 is probably the best monitor I'd be able to afford if I decided to ditch my Hanns-G 28", or needed the extra capability, the monitor I'd really like to have would be LG's 30" IPS panel .

Seeing this topic is in play I wonder if you guys could elaborate on the U2410's 16:10 aspect ratio.
I'm currently using a 16:9 20inch TN panel.I plan to buy the U2410 for my next rig.
I've seen comments here from time to time that 16:10 is sweeter.
Regards

Adi ..er woops
FP