Am I the only one upset that there are no high-end guides anymore? Yes I love the low-end guide, it's certainly of interest, but the high end is now completely missing.

It seems that the new 500 vs 800 is purely a "which way do you want to compromise" or "how much do you want to sacrifice" game. Which is fine. But I still need what I needed before.

I need a "where do I stop seeing any return from continued investment". I just bought a new machine last month. Without the monitor, I spent $4'000. It's not that the extra $3'000 of stuff was worth $3'000, it's that it was more beneficial than putting the money towards something else or towards a second machine.

I spent $2'500 on the perfect monitor. Yes anything can drive it, but some things drive it better. I needed four drives not for the capacity, but for the redundancy and for the concurrent-access speed boost and stability.

So what, now I don't get any help in the future?

Hey, everytime TR does a system guide, they fail to mention that having the full 8GB of ram for about $50 would probably help performance on lots of applications and multitasking environments, not to mention assist VM users. Also, I still dont understand why TR thinks XP x64 is a dead end. Its a dead end only if you play DX10 games. XP x64 is a good alternative if you have access to it ,and its certainly a better alternative to 32-bit XP.

Anyone building the Econobox Lite as recommended should be aware that the GeForce 7050 chipset used in the Foxconn board only has a single-channel memory controller [1]. "Single channel DDR2 800(oc**)/667 x 2 DIMMs, Max. 4GB" This means that a quad-core processor will be starved even more than usual, and if you intend to perform memory-bandwidth tasks with a low-cache processor like the Celeron 430, you can expect performance to be relatively poor.

(This is as opposed to the new GeForce 9x00 series chipsets as well as the nForce 650i, 680i, 750i, 780i and 790i series chipsets, all of which have dual-channel memory controllers.)

[1] http://www.foxconnchannel.com/product/Motherboards/detail_overview....

Also, the Econobox's Pentium Dual-core E5200 does not support SSE4.1 [2], just something to keep in mind for those people hoping to take advantage of that particular instruction set. (Then again, neither do its predecessors the Pentium Dual-core E2xx0 microprocessors, nor do the competition's Athlon X2 microprocessors.) "Besides, there is one more peculiarity that draws our attention: Pentium Dual Core E5200 doesn’t support SSE4.1 instructions. It is not a mistake in the CPU-Z report. Although this processor formally belongs to Wolfdale family, it doesn’t support these instructions. Intel simply disabled the corresponding feature in its low-cost dual-core CPUs." (This is also supported by Intel's data sheets for the E5x00 series as opposed to the E7x00 and E8x00 series processors.)

[2] http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core2duo-e7300-pdc-e52...

If the motherboard you choose doesn't have more than one PCI Express x16 slot, there's no reason to go P45 over the cheaper P43. The major difference between them is CrossFire support. [3] "And finally, P43 is the Low-End chipset in the series -- the same PCI Express 2.0 x16 graphics interface as in P45, but it cannot be split into two ports for CrossFire. [...] In fact, this is the only difference between P43 and P45. As a rule, the line of discrete chipsets from Intel used to have only two models (High- and Mid-End) and sometimes entry-level products. But now we have two Mid-End chipsets. No wonder motherboard manufacturers pay much more interest to the cheaper P43, announcing models on this chipset in the first place."

[3] http://www.digit-life.com/articles3/mainboard/i43p-i45p-chipsets.html

For the Utility Player, why go for the slower E8400 when the Core 2 Duo E8500 is only $25 more [4] [5]? Granted it's only 166 MHz faster, but when you need the performance, it's good to have it already, and $25 isn't much more when you consider the whole box costs $830. And if CrossFire isn't a priority, you could just use the GA-EP43-DS3R to offset the cost of the more expensive processor a bit.

[4] http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037
[5] http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115036

Speaking of the -DS3R, the Ultra Durable 3 boards cost the same or less than the -DS3* boards before them. Why not just opt for the -UD3* boards instead? e.g. Newegg currently carries the GA-EP45-UD3R for $7 less than the GA-EP45-DS3R -- and the former is a higher-quality board to boot.

Similarly, in the Utility Player alternatives, why go for the slower Phenom X4 9850 BE (125 W) when you can get the 125 W version of the Phenom X4 99 50 BE for $15 more [6] [7]? Granted it's only 100 MHz faster, but at those clock speeds, even 100 MHz matters.

[6] http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103249
[7] http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103291

The Antec NeoPower you recommend, made by Channel Well, is widely known to use Fuhjyyu capacitors, a cause of the capacitor plague [8]. I'd be loath to recommend any Antecs aside from the Earthwatts. I'd prefer a nice Seasonic M12-II 500 W or S12 Energy Plus 550 W power supply instead -- Seasonic potentially makes the best consumer-grade power supplies in the market today (and in fact Antec's Earthwatts series power supplies are manufactured by Seasonic), using a combination of aluminum solid capacitors and high-quality Rubycon electrolytic capacitors. Alternatively, there's the Corsair HX Series 520W power supply, also Seasonic manufactured, and it comes with modular cables, although it is on the more expensive side.

[8] http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDArticles&file=print&nda...

Your builds could therefore definitely be better than they were this time around.

I still can't recommend Vista to my friends in good conscience.

I have a perfectly good box, Quad, gobs of ram, fast disks, high end GPU, the works.

Vista thrashes the PISS out of my boot disk for 10-15 seconds right at the end of bootup. Makes an ungodly noise, seeks like a mofo.

That's cosmetic.

When I'm using the machine, at semi-random intervals, my box will slow to a crawl and beat the snot out of my boot disk. I have a gadget that shows disk usage and drive C: PEGS out and won't come down for 5-10 minutes. As far as my research can tell, it's the Windows Search service marking the previous index bad and rebuilding it. No reason why.

The boot time holy whoopass is unknown to me or MS's KB, and nobody can explain it. A clean reinstall did not correct it.

Not posting here looking for answers, but with questions like these I just can't recommend Vista over XP.

Man I love this site. I know it's late in posting a comment, but I'd like to say that the repositioning of the system's was LONG OVER DUE.

I was hoping it was coming, ever since Scott made an off-the-cuff remark about such a change being necessary in the Podcast. The thing of it is, while having only $500 in my world is certainly an appropriate budget for a budget "econobox" fifteen hundred dollars is definitely wayyy, wayyy overkill imo to be called the "Sweet Spot.

I've always felt that the Sweet Spot--to me at least--was $1000.00 ... or what TR perpetually called the "Grand Experiment." idk about you guys but if my poor-bum is going to plunk down a thousand bucks, I'm by no means "experimenting."

Typically, when I have built PC's in the past, I have spent $800 or so, and been just out of reach of the mythical $1000 sweet spot.

But now I have a Mac, so those days are over... and incidentally I'm a much happier man for it.

Three comments:
1. Thanks!

2. There are a TON of ways to make a good econo box lite. I think this price bracket changes the most. The competition is fierce. I would, like a lot of people, ditch the Celeron.

3. I'm amazed at how far your money goes these days! I remember when the double stuff workstation build would barely power through the top applications of the day... now there isn't any need for them at all! The consumer is winning here.

I really don't understand this, where TR comes up with that the 260 "Reloaded" and the HD4870 1GB are the mid/high end only options. Understandably they are both nice cards but as previous TR articles have pointed out, graphics cards these days do not need 1GB of ram to get the job done, 512mb is perfectly fine. With that fact, why would you compare the HD4870 vs. the 260 "Reloaded", it should be the regular HD4870 vs teh 260 "Reloaded", which in that case the HD4870 would be a "virtual tie", but for a way better price than any 260 "Reloaded". Just sounds like a way to say that Nvidia and ATI have meet at the same level on a playing field, when in-fact ATI still has got Nvidia, just TR is focusing on a more expensive, yet similarly performing model of the HD4870.

*As an after thought, I love TR, one of my fav sites and my home-page on all my comps, just this one things has bothered me about the recent reviews/lists Ive seen produced by them.

I got to the first page of the econobox before I felt compelled to comment.

I thought the realms of PC hardware would be safe from the unholy words that are Joe-Sixpack. Palin has dealt a devastating blow which goes far deeper than I ever imagine it could in our society. Our nation will never truly recover from the wound of Joe-Sixpack.

Back to reading I go!

I realize the Celeron 430 was chosen for its 35W power usage, but might you still consider the Celeron E1200 instead?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116064

Yes, its TDP is 65W, but unless the Budget Lite is insteaded as an HTPC or something, I don't think the low wattage of the 430 is worth sacrificing the much, MUCH, higher productivity a dual core will provide you (and its only $10 more).

Amazing what you can get for your coin nowadays.

I must say I was happy to see some Asus board recommendations too, I've had nothing but misery with Gigabyte and will continue to badmouth that useless company until the day I die, I hope they lose at least a few sales due to me.
(trying to charge me to swap a fault component still under warranty? sorry guys - your loss!)
I would have liked to see more 4870 recommendations but it's your choice guys, also I can't see much point in a quad core in the top end machine, to be honest - the E8500 is an overclock monster and there's STILL no real advantage to multi cores ifor most users :/

I haven't read all of the article yet but I just felt compelled to mention this.

when discussing the econobox computer if your going to be adding a better video card why choose a more expensive motherboard with integrated graphics.

it's a budget system..... I don't get it.

their are so many rock stable and reliable 690g motherboards selling for notably less than the 780g's and your putting an add in graphics card......

hybrid graphics are irrelavent at the moment and shouldn't be factored given the budget and immediate use of an add in video card....... the cpu's in question won't drive them throw the money at a better graphics card....... you chose a 4670 but had you shifted your board choice you may have squeeze a 4850 after MIR or the newly released 8800 or 9800..... I mean really a compelling case for the 4850 alone could be made..... and if graphics are wanted which would seem to be the case then throwing an additional $50 when the room is available makes sense...... or use it for 4gb's of ram or better cpu but throwing an extra $20 at a motherboard in a budget segment seems like a less than optimal choice.

Floppy drives are 100% dead.

Motherboards finally support bootable USB thumb drives and can directly flash their BIOS off them. (hugs his EP45-DS4P for this feature alone).

Vista and later flavors of *nix installation programs can load 3rd-party drivers from non-floppy sources as well.

I would also recommend ~$50 In Win cases (c.f., Arstechnica). The included 300/350W Power Man power supplies are only 79% efficient at best, but that is okay for the price.

I would be hesitant to recommend that Koutech floppy cf reader thing. it sparked my interest after reading the article. The reviews on the first page all talk about the power connector frying the line on the psu, Yikes! That is not a good sign.

Articles like this are what make TR the best. Excellent work. I am not building my own PC's right now but when the kids get a little older and I have some more time on my hands I'll get back into it. :)

It's a shame there aren't any alternatives on the Econobox lite, if possible I'd rather have an Intel chipset than an nVidia one, and I wouldn't mind Intel's integrated graphics as I don't game.

I'm seriously disappointed with the Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3R, I've had nothing but problems with it and wouldn't recommend it at all. If I could take it all back, I would go with the ASUS P5Q Pro, it has a very similar configuration, isn't that much more expensive and I doubt that it's NEEDED 10 BIOS updates in the short time it's been on the market.

You know, for $39.99 the ultra econobox could have an X2 4400+, right? Overall the system price might go up by $10-12 to add a cooler but it's still under $300 (which is ultra econo IMO)

I'd like to see TR make more concrete recommendations for monitors.

At the low end, the $150 Acer X203Wbd (with free shipping) may be worth a look. You get a 20" 1680x1050 LCD with DVI input and HDCP for a bargain price. Yes, it has an ugly TN panel, but that's all that you will find at the low end.

For folks with a more substantial budget, is the $700 DoubleSight DS-265W a reasonable alternative to the $619 Dell UltraSharp 2408WFP?

Ironic that the Zotac 216 comes with a free copy of GRID...a game where it gets owned by the HD4870 :)
To quote TR:The exact same Radeon HD 4870 GPU with 1GB of memory, however, produced performance easily superior to any of the GeForces.

Flame on! I wounder will nVidia ever do a 'The way it's meant to be Reviewed' scheme? hehe ;)

First, I like the idea of an upgradable super-budget system that can make the core of a decent system for a longer time than an Atom box.

Second, regarding the mention on page 7 for RAID1 is fine but the statement that RAID1 'can' improve read performance isn't fleshed out enough. Afaik from personal and other user's testing RAID1 on an ICHxR (10R for the recommended mobo,) those controllers do not do simultaneous reads in RAID1 - the RAID1 and single drive reads are the same. So an add-in controller card would be needed to have that advantage of RAID1. You could also mention Matrix RAID which allows different array types on one set of drives. RAID0/RAID1 would probably be a good mix on that machine.

Third, the Radeon 4830 is coming out soon (today? I remember reading it would be out on the 21st.) If there won't be another system guide for a whlie and if tat card is a viable alternative or a superior one to any of the recommendations you may want to add that in to the guide.

Long time reader (I love this site by the way) but I figured I'd register an account now since I feel this is kind of important. Under the alternative for the EconBox you suggested the 5400+ X2 BE which does not come with a heatsink and fan, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of an after market CPU cooler. At that rate you're already spending at least $20 (~$15 on a cheapo cooler plus shipping) so why not bump the processor up to a 6000+ X2? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103233

yes yes excellent site and this latest system guide has also pushed me to finally register and shower the TR team with accolades. Thx for the addition of the Utility player, exactly what I needed! Love the Podcast!

*reads*
Edit: I am the sweeter spot. lol
C2Q Q9300 | P5W DH | 6GB's DDR2 667 | Radeon HD 4870 512MB / Theatre 650Pro | Intel PCIe NIC | X-Fi | ~1.6TB SATA2 'cuda's | Dell 2005FPW | LG GSA-4160B | Ultimate x64
Wait, the bragging thread is over here...
Too bad I paid more for my system then that. :(

Hey, perfect timing.