I wish I could meet some smart fags.
:sigh:

So...back to IE6. I wish I had some smart tags.

ie6 - any important moves in stadards-compliance, or is that an old topic now seeing there is only One Browser(TM)?

Ryu - good legal information.

I guess I should rephrase that to say that it should be my right as a consumer
to consent to when and when-not my "delete" button should work,
and when it should say it worked only to not have.. that was somewhat
off tangent

At any rate, shooting people down for asking their software to act like
it says it does I cant find right.

But I have also factored in that if this "compress" option works, it is simply
my own lack of knowledge, and in which case will accept the award
for "jackass of the topic".

But, I run linux anyways, so my comments on this post are somewhat
irrelivant as they dont affect me.. oh well, 12:47 - time to sleep.

Peace etc.. until the next topic arises

Mindwarp

Well I didn't write that silly privacy crap.

Thus far the name calling I've done:

Ryu: Naive and Jackass (hothead would be more accurate usually, but I haven't been able to get him too riled on this thread -- maybe next wednesday)
McTwin2k: Idiot

But good grief, I'm a troll, I said as much (YHABT -- You have all been trolled).

Cheers

Originally Posted by mac_bug
gasp, you are right Ryu, there does seem to be a compact option in IE6.

That exactly conforms with my earlier post about how I would program the software to manage the database...

Unless of course this compact option does not do what I said mine would do.

[q]I disagree with you. I find Ryu a gentleman. I'm not aware he routinely or even often, disses those of opposite opinion.[/q]

I appreciate that, but feel it necessary to say I am no saint nor anything other than human.

I have used vulgarity, I have flamed people, I can be very scathing and hostile, and I of course can be a smart ass and rude.

I even have a tendency from time to time to be wrong. (gasp!)

I tend to get the impression though that my willingness to hang out in the "trenches" so to speak brings out a group of people who are willing to attack me to boost their own self-esteem.

It's one thing to disagree, hell, you don't even have to like me. It's quite another to attack my character or my intelligence. I don't let it bother me too much though, as most individuals give hypocrisy a new name. For example.

AG#41

[q]just FYI, your about the most ignorant person that is able to get posted @ tech-report.

Last I check america had a constitution, which provided humans basic rights. Privacy used to be one of them. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? If that was true, then why do they need to preemptively store my data?[/q]

While I appreciate his "constructive" criticism I think somone should point out to him that the Constitution only protects the people from Government intrusion, not from private individuals.

Protection of our civil liberties from private individuals would require secondary laws or extenuating circumstances. Of which I only know of a few, one of them is by proving that a private individual was working as a agent of the state during their collection of incriminating evidence.

I am not very familiar with corporate law, but I imagine there are a variety of laws that allow them to sue each other (civily, perhaps even criminally) if they can prove espionage.

Certain states might have stricter privacy laws, but I don't know of any federal law that disallows corporations from collecting information about consumers. Many privacy groups are large enough to throw some weight around in Congress and get most corporations to back down before they execute something particularly grevious. See Intel's Processor ID as an example.

I have seen some wonderful legal arguments based upon the idea that the fifth amendment should have a larger reach, but I imagine any ruling made by a judge granting such a application would never survive the appeals process. One never knows though, the Fourteenth Amendment has blurred the line between private and government, but even today it is not a all encompassing law (and much of that has probably come from secondary laws). The Augusta National, a large and affluent private club, still holds to grossly discrimnatory practices in its recruitment. They are a private entity though, as such they cannot be regulated by the fourteenth amendment.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/conlaw/materials/chapter10.pdf

I suggest you check out that PDF it does an excellent job of clearing the air.

http://www.isteve.com/golfrace.htm

An interesting piece about golf and discrimination.

And to think, I was the ignorant one here.

As for the hotly debated topic of the information on f$#$microsoft.com. I started making a batch file in order to purge the data. Thing is the further I get into the article the more mistaken I believe the author is.

I get the impression that if he would use the Archive or Compress All option in Outlook, these mysterious cached e-mails of his would disappear. It also appears that content.ie5 is Temporary Internet Files.

The matter appears to be a non-issue.

Originally Posted by mac_bug
67: might wanna read what I wrote again, and then read it again. Lately it would seem everyones been reading what I meant totally backwards, and my consequent attempt at explaination only seemed to make them believe in what they believe in even more. Like what the hell? What you said is EXACTLY what I meant. Sheesh, talk about getting killed by friendly fire. Might wanna modify your addressing to #64?

back to #66:

Since when is he my associate? Is somehow pointing out how insignificant your info is on that IBM harddrive of theirs is \'taking his side?\' Please, why do I keep on getting myself into the arguments where people have the mentality of \'if you are not with me, you are against me\'.

Looking back, maybe its because my glasses havent arrived yet, but I can\'t seem to find Ryu here insulting anyone using the words \'ignorant, idiot, moron\' etc, where as the other camp made no qualms about using them. But seeing as how you appear to be addressing me, I\'ll respond

So no everyone else is not wrong (and I don\'t think I am either), this isn\'t zero sum. But you and Ryu ridiculing others views is stupid.

I merely pointed out that if you think that somehow info reguarding stuff like how big a house you live in is vital and MS can\'t live without it, you are delusional. Since you are not, why worry?

. Ryu is a well known jackass.

It is often easier to label someone jackass, but I guess its pretty hard to go and use the word jackasses.

You appear to want to join his ranks. Congratulations

Maybe I\'m delusional and self elevating to think you want to call me a jackass and assume you are addressing me. ONOS MS is going to find out and get the government to lock me up! :)

#66: I disagree with you. I find Ryu a gentleman. I'm not aware he routinely or even often, disses those of opposite opinion.

BTW, I am of opinion MS is up to no good in this matter (as in most other matters).
MS has finally, after years of long hard work, conducted with truly admirable single-minded dedication --- honestly earned my complete distrust, general loathing.

Macbug, you dissed 64, because his opinion is minority opinion. When was it decided that the "the truth of a matter"
is decided by Gallup Poll?
History often shows, the one who said X when the mob was saying Y (and labeled by the mob as paranoid or crank) was often later proven correct.
Truth is not governed by Gallup.

Well, let's catalog some of the things you and your associates have been wrong about thus far:

- how hard drives work
- how file systems work
- the contents of the mbx files
- how mbx files are updated
- the usefullness of the information in those files
- what source code tells you
- what source code cannot possibly tell you

I don't contend that MS is stealing the data, only that "cache"ing it is "sketchy". That is what my first post said, and I still believe it.

So no everyone else is not wrong (and I don't think I am either), this isn't zero sum. But you and Ryu ridiculing others views is stupid. Ryu is a well known jackass. You appear to want to join his ranks. Congratulations

Originally Posted by mac_bug
#64: here we go again

\"Look at the number of people saying you are wrong, EVERYONE IS WRONG AND YOU ARE RIGHT, IS THAT IT?\"

I imagine the look on their face when they do get proven wrong, and they certainly can\'t speak for everyone in the world.

And of course Doctors are known to be the most technology savvy people in the world, so if its good enough for a doctor it must be good enough for me.

Does boots == Ryu Conner? It's hard to believe there could be 2 people in the world that think their opinion is the only one that can possibly be correct.

Originally Posted by mac_bug
If I was to write a program that utilizes a database...

I would keep everything in there, even if you deleted it.

I would give you an option that says compact database, which cleans the marked for deletes out of the database and shrink it.

This would be a simple tool to use, I would imagine if one complain enough about it, MS will whip up a program that does the database compacting for you in a week.

And then we\'ll move on to why should we give permission for any executables to run at all on our computer, after all, they all have the potential to invade our privacy and send along our info without our consent after we double click it.

Originally Posted by boots
I remember when Iwas working as a computer technician, a doctor had us upgrade their harddrive, and so we copied all the data to the new drive, etc. Then we took the old one, and smashed it up real good. Lots of fun. :) Even a Doctor with patients information isn\'t as paranoid as you silly gerbils. sheesh.

Ok since people wish to keep bringing up points that only they find relevant to the situation, to the tool that said that the email data is marked to be overwritten. Its not. I think we all know how a computer works, etc. and that data is really not deleted immediately. But when you delete the mail from outlook, it is not even marked to be overwritten. That is the issue. Read. Research. Dont just cut and paste without analysis.

Mindwarp

And the guy who said that ignorant could use work.. your right, I like your version better :)

<picks self up off floor, pants wet from laughing so hard...>

Random commennts:
Ryu, you sure do take a lot of abuse here. Mostly unjustified, too.

Mindwarp/AG41, keep the insults to yourself. You may have any opinion you like, but there is no reason for you to resort to blatant name calling. Also, as long as the "English Card" has been played, that would be "You are, (or you're) about the most ignorant... If you must name-call, at least try to be creative. Say something like, "you seem not fully able to comprehend the intricacies of the OS..." or something well barbed like that...

See also: poor TwoFer, PhD in Astrophysics and still makes an error.
It's a message board, not a term paper!
A little stream-of-consciousness that is readable is hardly cause for you english Nazi's to come out of the woodwork. (Heh, now there is a funny thought English Nazi's... I wonder if there were any during the bombing of London...)

OK, time to quit rambling. Take two Ritalin ;-)

McTwin2k is not an idiot.

M2k though it seems like simply overwriting a drive would work, it is important to understand some of the differences between physical and electronic media.

Im particular, the platters on your hard drive are physically altered everytime they are written to, however each mag/demag changes the nature of the disk. Thus it is possible to reconstruct what series of 0s and 1s have been written to a location and reconstruct what data used to be there. In theory there is some level of randomness you could use (writing random blocks with random data, a random number of times) to lose that information. In practice, you can brute force the answer too quickly, unless the disk was written to so many times that it no longer "holds a charge".

Writing that many times is way too time consuming, so DOD shreds the disks. However truly sensitive data was never written to the disk in a non encrypted format anyway (you can thank the idiots at Los Alamos for finally making this sop).

Zero filling a drive erases the existing data??? You ought to protect yourself from your own ignorance.

You, sir, are an idiot.

Originally Posted by mctwin2kman
Diss,

Can I get a hat, I want to protect myself from ignorance??? Sorry but how many people must tell these AG\'s that this stuff is actually supposed to be there???

Originally Posted by mctwin2kman
People are just paranoid and want to make MS out to be more evil than they already are. Not really understanding how a computer works and how data is stored on a hard drive. The only way to get ridof data on a hard drive is to zero fill it. For the slower people that is filling the hard drive with all zero\'s, that is how they are shipped from the factory, or you can low level format it. All os\'s from Windows to Linuz to Novell to OS/400 don\'t actually delete any data, the pointer that marks where the data is, is just removed. Then when the space is needed the data is overwritten. It would be too much stress on the drive to always wipe out data completely. And why bother, it is less efficient and we users want fast and efficient drives. As for the files listed on that site, they are all normal and that is where you data is all stored, nothing wierd about them. The reason they are hidden so well, is to keep stupid people from deleting them and then losing there e-mail or other information that was important. I mean were do you think e-mail is stored, in some mistical place so no one else can ever get to it. No it is on the HD just like all your other files.

Originally Posted by dissonance
So why aren\'t people complaining about deleting files in general... I mean they\'re still there, you can still get them unless you wipe your hard drive with a cleaning utility that overwrites things several times with 1s and 0s.

*passes around tinfoil hats*

What is exactly is the problem?

People are surprised that email programs and browsers are making files?? Where do you think these programs store your data? When you have an email, where do you think that email is kept?

In a file. On your harddrive.

In this case, those files serve as a database. When you "delete" an email, the program marks that data as deleted - and therefore no longer sees it when looking at your data. It also allows the data to be overwritten eventually. It does not actually "remove" the data because there is really no point in removing the data. The data isn't hurting anything - it's not taking up space because it is marked to be overwritten. Actually removing the data would be pointless and inefficient. Programs have been working like this for years.

When you delete a file in Windows, the file is not "removed" it is marked as deleted. The file is still there. Anyone with the right software can find it and do anything they want with it. It's no different in Linux. It's standard practice.

These databases are no different... When you "delete" an email you are telling the program to ignore that data. You're not removing anything. It has worked like this for years, and it will continue to work like this for years, regardless of what paranoid ramblings people come up with.

Originally Posted by mac_bug
Dis: Just talked to my now favorite eye doc today, and he says his friends company in Vancouver got bought over by MS and they moved down there, became overnight successes and is still quite happy as milionaire. Remember whats that company\'s name that was suing MS? They are reportedly in fiancial ruins, and that has nothing to do with MS taking their product and using it, I guess a lot of these the lawsuits really are desperate acts to get absorbed, not that they don\'t have a right to sue if MS did violate their virginity :)

Originally Posted by dissonance
Gerbil #43...

Microsoft raping and pillaging companies? Buying them out? Buying their ideas? Who do you think is selling themselves to Microsoft?

A year or so ago, probably more, I read an article on startups in Wired. The gist of what several were saying was that it was essentially their dream to bust their asses on their product, and then sell the idea and their company to a Yahoo, or a Microsoft for a few million, work for a few years, and retire comfortable enough to never have to work again with a modest lifestyle.

Raped? Hardly. These companies are like drunk sorority girls, throwing themselves at Microsoft, begging to be taken upstairs for a little nookie.

YHABT.

Originally Posted by mctwin2kman
Hey then delete all of them. Then if you use Outlook Express don\'t go crying that you lost all of your e-mail. This has been debated on many forums, it is all BS. The files exist yes, but they are supposed to be there. Get it. Delete the .MBX files and loose your e-mail, I do not care. That is what .MBX stands for MAILBOX.....

A company I used to work for had access to a database where, from your incoming http request we could find out your phone number. If you looked at a site that ran our adserver, we could have called you up, no problem. Last time I checked Naviant still had VC and was improving their profile db all the time. Can't remember the name of the company that we could look addresses up in their database. Something kind of like Visiant.

#45 - I am not saying that MS is wants any of my information. What I am saying is that it should be our right to delete emails etc. and have them be actually deleted, rather than stored. I would guess that the NSA/government have more to do with the need to store emails than microsoft would.