it is good

[b]Threshe/b] (post 38)

[q] All this is to say that over all, QC in the PC world is atrocious. If our washing machines, vcrs, or cars had this record of reliability or delivery, we wouldn't stand for it. Apple is just as bad as the rest and should be ashamed of allowing that to happen. If any car were released with the bugs that Windows has with every new version, there would be multiple class action suits.[/q]
Indubitably. Reminds me of a joke about an electrical engineer, a chemical engineer and an MCSE stuck in a car that just stalled. I forget most of the joke, but the punchline is "Just close all the windows and try to start it again" :)

[q]We accept too little from the software and hardware industries and we shouldn't. We should demand the same level of quality that we demand from other products. However, the industry has been able to isolate themselves with favorable legislation. Additionally, EULAs have largely been found as enforceable and all of them have some sort of "Hold Harmless" language in them that makes it very difficult to sue. This I don't understand, as a contract of adhesion (one party has the power to dictate the terms to another), usually terms like these don't stand up very well in court. Furthermore, in most contract law, contracts that limit an individual's right to sue are almost always thrown out (like those releases you have to sign to be able to bungie jump). They aren't worth the paper they are written on. Somehow, software and hardware manufacturers have been able to convince legislators and courts that they are different and that any rules that tie them to the rest of the world would harm progress. Bullshit. We need guarantees of quality and security. Warranties need to apply to software that is defective, just like hardware.[/q]
Hmm, ever wonder why computer piracy is such "big business"? Please tell me any other industry where one has to buy products sIght unseen, knowing full well that they might be defective (from an engineering standpoint) or simply very poorly written, and you the consumer are stuck footing the bill. No returns or refunds here! And they (the software industry) have enough clout in the form of their various lobbyist groups (RIAA, Hollywood, BSA, etc.) that any kind of draconian law that restricts our usage or their responsibility is more likely than not to pass quite easily.

[q]In summary:
Computer industry is not accountable to anyone.[/q]
They've made that clear again and again.

[q]Have fun.[/q]
Feh.

[besteves2[/b] (post 13)

[q]Why is this newsworthy??? What is next... pretty color bar graphs in the corner?? How about a 'feature' section with dogshows and recipes for 'Grandma's' Lemonade... [/q]
I'd buy that for a dollar!

Mmm... lemonade :)

As M$ has proven time and time again, paying 10x for it does not guarantee bullet-proof software.

If you want bulletproof software, be prepared to pay tens of times as much for it. That's the compromise the general public has made.

Originally Posted by A Non Moose
Preach on, Thresher , preach on.

3 months and several \"fire lighting\" ceremonies later, I am finally getting results:

30 days to get parts (max) I can live with, but 2+ is insane.

When I finally *do* get them, well:

Order 10 processors.
1 x 1.4Ghz Xeon
5 x 800Mhz P3\'s
4 x 750Mhz P3\'s

I get a 1.5Ghz...ok, cool, but wait!!! No Heat Sync. WTF?
I spend $370 on this chip, and you are shorting me a $20, or cheaper, piece of metal? Forget that it is not what I ordered, but I *can NOT* fix this because of the ***propritary*** heat sync config on the board. (insert knife, twist)

3 of the 5 p3-800 were in perfect working order, cool.
2 of the p3-800\'s were not making proper contact with the heat sync (one was 1/2 off, the other was 3/4 off)

Same with the p3 750\'s...not making proper contact.

Literally at the wides point you could fit the dull side of an xacto knife in there.

So, out of 10 processors, you have a 30% success rate?
Is this *good*?

Oh, and a 530 WorkStation that could do 3D modelling for (by user accounts) 3 weeks after purchase?
Turns out, after NT, 2000, and 20 different driver revisions, direct X that the FireGL card (1000 dollar video card) fscked up somehow.
Put in a different box, same error.
Could you do it once more, the D/Hell tech asks...
What? the previous 50 times giving the same error on 2 different OS\'s was not enuf?

Apparently, not....one more time.

Same error, I say. Can I get an Nvidia card?

No you get the same card.

(fight this for 20 mins, then give up)

(sigh) Fine.

What do I get? Nvidia card and....suprise!!! It works!

Mental Note:
The PowerVault techs are reading the same manual you are...if you can\'t figure it out yourself, you\'re screwed.

If your PowerEdge has a raid card, and the tech says \"Let\'s try a few things...\" STOP, ask for another tech, or hang the hell up.

D/Hell is getting more propritary than Apple:
Powersupplies, heat syncs, motherboards and Memory (exception of Rambus, IIRC).

So, One fsckup...bah, when we get to 10 or more of this incident repeating....then there is an undeniable pattern.

Dalamar70: The difference between the Katmai P3 and the G4, is that the P3 was, and if you look hard still is if you look hard enough, an easy and cheap off the shelf part to find. In that case, you had the option of buying a retail or OEM processor for the HP, there is no such viable option for an Apple. There are some companies that make some "upgrade" processor for the Apple PC's, and in some cases these can be about as expensive as buying parts straight from a vendor. Vendor prices are always higher than retail prices. Paying almost a grand for a G4 motherboard is excessive, but I'll admit it's not the most expensive part I've ever seen. That part would have to be a Dual Pentium Pro Motherboard for an Acer PC. It was terribly hard part to find, and our 3rd party parts vendor wanted around $2500 for it.

In general the Apple parts are usually a few hundred dollars more expensive than PC parts, when it comes to desktop system components. In regards to laptop parts, Apple is just about on par with the other vendors I've dealt with. Which is good, considering I rarely see Apple laptops anymore. Apple must have done something right with their Titanium line of Powerbooks. I used to see Walstreet and Bronze Keyboard Powerbooks all the time, but I've seen very few Titaniums. Even the new line of iBooks seem to be built better than old Colored Frisbee versions.

Wow, look at the prices for the replacement mobo & cpu!

On the other hand, the HP parts ordering form at http://partsinfo.hp.com for the Pavilion 8570c shows that a "Intel Pentium III Processor Module - 450MHz (Katmai, 100MHz FSB, Slot 1, SECC-2, 512k Level 2 Cache)" goes for $1712.50.

Whee!

AG35

Man, I wish more people would just keep their hands out of the case.

I used to tech support. More often then not, a person with a little computer knowledge has actually done more damage by trying to "fix" something than whatever damage the intial problem caused.

Hmmmm.

I have to agree, it's a screw up and should never have happened. I don't personally think it's front page news, but that's a matter of opinion.

However, Apple is hardly alone in this.

My first Dell came with a bad motherboard. Contrary to what has been said here, no one came to my house to replace it. I had to send it in (thankfully, they paid the shipping).

My third Dell came with a bad soundcard. It wasn't much of a problem since I was planning on replacing it with one I had anyway, so I mailed it back for credit.

Dells four and five arrived without a hitch, but I started building my own desktops and didn't buy another Dell for a while. So, when I was looking for a laptop........

My sixth Dell (the only laptop in the bunch) came without a NIC, despite the fact that it was clearly on the order form and on the paperwork in the box. I went through hell trying to get anyone from Dell to help me. They kept saying I ordered it without the NIC. Nevermind that I had the paperwork in hand, there is also the fact this model could not be configured without a NIC on their webpage. Just plain idiotic. Then they switched tactics and said that I had one, I just didn't realize it. Huh? I have an RJ11 socket with an RJ45 cut out, no wires in it. I had to take digital photos and send email them before they would take my word for it. I kept the Inspiron and they finally credited me for the missing NIC.
Award winning service my ass.

This brings me to my iPaq. Thankfully, I am not the only person who has had trouble with the damn thing. There is a petition on line to get HP to either take the thing back or give us some sort of credit. I have had all sorts of backlight problems with it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It locks up all the damn time. Soft resets don't work sometimes. This product was defective when it came out. I gave up trying to get service on it and just kept the damn thing. When it works, it's really cool and I can't work without it. Here's the petition for the iPaq problems in case anyone else is having trouble:

http://www.ipaqpetition.com/

All this is to say that over all, QC in the PC world is atrocious. If our washing machines, vcrs, or cars had this record of reliability or delivery, we wouldn't stand for it. Apple is just as bad as the rest and should be ashamed of allowing that to happen. If any car were released with the bugs that Windows has with every new version, there would be multiple class action suits.

We accept too little from the software and hardware industries and we shouldn't. We should demand the same level of quality that we demand from other products. However, the industry has been able to isolate themselves with favorable legislation. Additionally, EULAs have largely been found as enforceable and all of them have some sort of "Hold Harmless" language in them that makes it very difficult to sue. This I don't understand, as a contract of adhesion (one party has the power to dictate the terms to another), usually terms like these don't stand up very well in court. Furthermore, in most contract law, contracts that limit an individual's right to sue are almost always thrown out (like those releases you have to sign to be able to bungie jump). They aren't worth the paper they are written on. Somehow, software and hardware manufacturers have been able to convince legislators and courts that they are different and that any rules that tie them to the rest of the world would harm progress. Bullshit. We need guarantees of quality and security. Warranties need to apply to software that is defective, just like hardware.

In summary:
Computer industry is not accountable to anyone.

Have fun.

Yes, I agree it is a pretty big oversight on Apple's part, but, as some people already have said, it isn't exclusive to Apple. I remember when I went to get an AthlonXP 1700+. I brought it home from the store, opened the box and saw that a few of the pins were bent... straight out of the box. I am not saying Apple is not to blame here, nor should they get off so lightly.
I think it was good of y'all to post the story on the main page... it will serve as a reminder to everyone that it isn't 100% gaurenteed that you will get a working part right out of the box (especially if you shop at Fry's :) )

AG 35 : If you ever worked in a retail tech shop, you would never make a comment like that.

Something to consider --
Perhaps PCs tend to attract the consumers who would be more able to repair their computer themselves or have the boy next door do this for them? More macs might be in the shops not due to lower quality construction but because PC owners are more prone to giving troubleshootig a try.

lol, Ryu...did the spider jar get too quiet?

I'm surprised no one has commented on the price.

Lol funny how many retards here miss the point of the story.I feel sorry for Angrymonkey 'cause now he has to endure the wrath of Macolytes. If it was a Dell/Compaq etc we'd all have a laugh and thats the end of it.

Come On... It could have been one pissed of employee throwing in a bad part. It could have been somebody on an assembly floor with a hangover. TOP STORY: Computer Manufacturer ships bad part!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like the first modem I bought back in the 2400 days... It was bad and after it caused several perfectly good computers to puke, the tech-support told me that they sell thousands and thousands of modems and they have never had one go bad. The only news here is that apple's PR department trying to find something to say that it can still do better (QC). Event if greasemonkey's repairshop services 3 times as many apples, it's not a large enough sample to mean anything. What would be interesting would be to contact a number of stores in different areas and get some hard data.

I'm afraid this is front-page material. It just happens to be a bonus that it's Mac-related to piss ReSteves (Jobs) off.

If it were Dell, IBM, Compaq, whatever....it would still be front page material, I reckon. A processor with DEAD written on it still making it into a new machine. Something is mighty fukt up.

But then again, Apple contract all their work out to Asian firms....they don't make anything themselves. So who made it? Who's responsible for this one? And how did it pass QC? What does this say about the level of QC? That is the question...

Nothing new here, my sis bought not 1 but 2 iMac's that had a dead processor. And she laught everytime I crashed Windows.....you know what..girls are evil....

Originally Posted by DiM-
Oops, need to edit my eyes ability here. Over 2.5 weeks. Still frustrating, no? Especially considering the cost of the system. If it was a 400 Emachine, I could understand.

Originally Posted by DiM-
Ok, everyone come and imagine with me for a minute. Well, not everyone, just ReSteves and a few others.

Imagine this was a Dell, who has a damn good reputation for QC.

Imagine the shiny black case, with the pretty silver Dell logo on it. I can see it, can you? Yea, that\'s it.

No, take every word of Mac out, and insert it with Dell, yea, we need to space things a little different cause Dell has 4 letters where Mac only has 3.

Ok, now in a different context doesn\'t this story seem interesting? How a major computer manu would send out a bad machine, take over a month to diagnose as bad, before recommending it go to a service shop? When I was a compaq/dell/etc tech, we\'d be out the day after the machine was unpacked most of the time, and generally with replacement parts in hand. I think a big portion of this story is not the fact that they did sell a bad proc in a system, but it took [bver a month[/b] before they suggested a tech look at it.

A month, imagine how po\'ed the customer is?

[qut it ain't worth a front page post[/q think it's worth a front-page post - the macolytes make their charge in the front-page comments that apple qa is just [i/i] much better than that for pcs.

good on yer, ryu! an' yer, AngryM0nk3y!

resteves as usual misses the point, and the totally awesome (that's 'merkin, ain't it?) scoreboardguy get three cheers for insight.

This deserves
[b1: Trol/b]

Seriously Ryu, this really should have just gone in the forums. It [iooks lik/i] a pretty stupid f*ck up by Apple, but it ain't worth a front page post.

Originally Posted by MrFreeze
AngryM0nk3y,

I am not in the least bit surprised that this has happened. I have to expect that from Apple. This is one of the reasons that Apple only gives you a year parts and labor warranty on their stuff. I used to be an Apple tech during the days of the beige PowerMacs and my experience has taught me that Apples are not more reliable that other PC kit. Matter of fact, they had dismal reliability. What was even worse was that if you were an Apple vendor, you had to fix the stuff and resell it, Apple would refuse to take back most of their defective stuff unless it had be repair at least once. Other PC companies like IBM and Compaq would take their defectives back without issue. The only company that I knew of that had similiar policies and track record was Packard Bell. Needless to say that my shaken confidience in Apple has never been restored. I have since moved on from being an Apple tech, but every time I think about buying Apple, I check with the local stores that sell Apple and on the track record of Apple kit, and I go back to assembling my own PC.

MrFreeze

Originally Posted by scoreboardguy
it has \"dead\" written on it in big english-like letters yet was still installed in the system, yet resteves flips out and makes a comparison to a [iead lcd pixel??[/i]

No trolls yet, so they can\'t earn points on this one, but I think we can solve this anyway:

[b]Trolls: 4
Resteves: -1[/b]

resteves = big fat llama who just got his ass put in the know...
damn mac llamas

resteves -
The store that I work at is the only Authorized Service provider for HP, Compaq, Toshiba, AND Apple computers in the area. We get all the work. We get all the dispatches to go onsite to fix those company's issues as well. The ratio sticks. If anything, it's even more uneven, if you want to count computers purchased at a location other than mine. Did I mention we're the only people in the area that sell Macs too?

I wouldn't bitch about a dead pixel, it's not an uncommon occurence on LCD's. That, and it doesn't keep the whole machine from booting. Now if I recieved an iBook that someone had scrawled DEAD into, well that would just be funny.

For further clarification. The machine was purchased on June 25. It was brought in for service on July 12, and was dropped into my Que and diagnosed on July 16. I'm sure that that was just a miscommunication between Ryu and myself.

Next AngryMOnkey bulletin

"TR BEWARE!! I found a *dead pixel* on an Apple iBook" (sad part is that TR would make an article out of it...)

Hmmm.. in your area, how many places are there that will service PC's?? Now, how many that service Mac's??

Can you figure out the importance of this ratio??

BTW... the machine was brought in on the 12th, but you "just now" got around to working on it?? Sounds like a great shop. [/cheap shot]

Well said...AngryM0nk3y

Okay, I'm gonna give a little background information to maybe make a few things easier for you guys.

This machine was purchased new from Apple, a month before it was brought in to me. The Serial Number shows no prior work, so unless Apple changed it's SN before it was sold (which I've never ever seen) this machine was brand spanking new.

From day one the customer said the machine exhibited stability issues. Sometimes it would power on, sometimes it wouldn't. Sometimes it would lock up immeadiately, other times it would run for extended periods of time. There are several Apple Case Numbers related to the serial number of this machine documenting numerous odd occurences.

The customer dealt with the machines odd behavior for a little over a month before Apple told him to take it to a repair shop.

This is not the first time I have ever seen a G4 or G3 tower with a dead processor or any dead component for that matter. It is, however, the first time I've ever seen a bad part had the wordm, "DEAD" written in bold text on it.

In my experience, we seem to get a disproportionate number of Apples to PC's in our tech shop. Several PC's are sold for every Mac that is sold. But we have nearly the same number of Apple units in our shop as we do PC units. I should also reitirate the fact that now all of these units are iMacs. On my shelf right now I have 15C PC's of different makes and models, but next to those I have 6 CRT iMacs, 3 Flat Panel iMacs, 2 G4's and 3 apple laptops. Thats just one shelf. If you figure that the a store sells 1 mac to ever 4 PC's, then you'd see that the occurences of faults in Apple computers exceeds the fault in PC's. Now this is all conjecture, but it is based upon my experience as an Apple Technician.

This is the first time I have ever had a diagnosis been written on a part the minute I opened the machine. I did troubleshoot the machine, to make sure that the part was bad. When this part was installed in another G4 Quicksilver, that machine would not boot.

On a side note, I come to TR to read interesting articles and discuss computer and technology related topics. If all you can say is "This is newsworthy?" Please point your keyboard in a different direction.......Just my opinion.