flying hippo: I am #48, and I didn't post since the FYI in #50. But I think you're reading things incorrectly. #53 reads to me more like agreement with you, and criticism of China or others.

Just DON'T go comitting rape and go pillaging

Ag 53,
Is this addressed to me? If it is, I did not call you an immature kid. Please read my post again. Ignorance is not a crime. I myself didn't know what an "Islamist" was. I don't understand why you have "lost face" and are angry with me. I just disagree with your views (assuming that you are the same person who posted ag48). Just do go comitting raping and pillaging now.

Perhaps because the U.S. of A. has moved past all that -- to being what it is today, we expect others to do the same. Telling me that I was just as immature and unenlightened as a kid does not excuse an adult from behaving like a brat.

Umm...Weren't we talking about China and search engines?

AG 48, 50
Sorry, the word "Islamist" is not in my dictionary.

No, really...I'm using the American Heritage dictionary 3rd edition, and a quick web search in the American Heritage dictonary 4TH edition for "Islamist" gave me this definition for Islamism:

1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life.
2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam.

No where do I see the words "radical," "terrorist," or "militant" but a militant radical terrorist group would be very conservitive and very literal about their beliefs of Islam.

I stand corrected.

I guess it's time to upgrade my dictonary...

FYI, the term "Islamist" is the current term of art for radical, murderous Muslim terrorist. Islamic, on the other hand, just means Muslim-type.

AG 48,

I think an important distinction should be made as I believe you are refering to the MINORITY of extreme fundimental "Islamists" who blindly war in the name Allah and not the majority of peace loving "Islamists" who just want to go to work, make a living for their families, pray and be nice to other people. And last I checked the correct term is "Muslim."

I also believe, the Japanese concept of "face" has more to do with respect for another persons social standing or prestege rather than as an excuse to commit atrocities. Much of Japan's modern culture evolved from its highly structured fuedal class system. At the top were the ruling aristorcats, then the famed Samurai, then the farmers, smiths and tradespeople, and so on... Face dictated the guide lines on how the classes would interact together to form a functioning society.

To a certain extent, it still exists today in Japan. The Japanese are certainly more group oriented than the Americans, however, even the Americans, or any other society, have a sense of face and social standing that people recognize or adhear too. In America we have our class of leaders and aristocrats and movie stars, just like we have our class of untouchable homeless. Face is just class etiquette.

I doubt either face or etiquette was involved when the Japanese soldiers raped and then violated then raped and then slaughtered then raped and then buctchered and then raped and raped again the women and men of Nanking for weeks and weeks on end. This is more an example of how fear and hate, turns into evil. Unfortunately, neither Japan nor Asia has a monoply on atrocities. The Nazis, without any traditional Asian concept of "face" were completely capable of dishing out their own brand of evil as well. Defying the group mentality wasn't any easier in Germany than it was in Japan. I would submit that this is a human failing that we all have, rather than one exclusive to the Japanese.

However as a side note, I will point out that the Germans as a country apologized for the Holocost whole hardedly and record the event in their high school history books, whereas the Japanese goverment has yet to even admit any involvment in Nanking, or World War 2 for that matter. Legally they are exempt from it, thanks to MacArthur and the American goverment...

Why another long winded post? Well with 9/11 comming up, a lot of anger and fear pervading yet again, it is dishearting to see people once more reverting to the "us" against "them" mentality. Christains against the Jews, the Protestants against the Catholics, the Croats against the Serbs, the Koreans against the Japanese, the Blacks against the Whites, rich agains the poor, the Americans against everyone else, etc etc.

It all starts with dehumanizing and demonizing someone or some group of perfectly honorble educated peace loving people like the "Islamists."

Oh and Deth, you're right.

Can't believe this thing is still going... so I'll help it along. :-)

The Near Eastern countries are often a problem, but they're nothing compared to China, in my opinion. My reasoning for that is because while Islamists are bad, they're still internally guided by rules of conduct they learn, or (rarely) discover for themselves. Their rules define non-Muslims as unworthy of human consideration. But that can be changed with honest evaluation of reality.

While in general this applies to all, the thing that I find troubling about many Far East cultures is their external, group-based thinking, such as the idea of "face" where if the group thinks its OK, it is literally OK. That's how Japanese permitted themselves to do what they did in China with bayonets in Nanking, for example, and against Americans, with children piloting suicide missions.

[quote]Why do people always seem to justify their current bad behavior by pointing out what others have done in the past?

"China's not so bad, look at what you did the the Indians.." [/quote]

Because some other people (you) can't follow a thread

Because some other people (bertman) declares US of A to be kick ass and China to be the suck when both suck.

FYI, 'China's not so bad' is based on BertMan's logic (read: USA is not so bad, look how crappy your country is), your inability to perceive my parallel / mockery and selective filtering to zoom in on me instead, well, let's leave it at that.

[blying hipp/b] (post 16)

[q]If the pesants were given internet access, access to infomation about labor laws, how the economy works, how corrupt the Chinese city officials are, or if they had information on the labor protest that occur in neighboring cities that have been squelched and quietly swept underneith the carpet, or if they had the ablity to exchange information with each other and get organized, imagine how threating that would be to the Communist Chinese. It is small wonder why Google got blocked. Ironically, the Commuist party, under Mao, gained its power through a revolution, by the pesants...the very same people who the communists are oppressing now.[/q]Show me a single "communist" state of the past century that hasn't been started as some sort of peasant uprising, then turns around and squashes said revolutionaries with dictatorial fervor. Odd how the idealistic communism of Marx turned into the same old oppression, violence and hatred of mankind that's been around forever.

[q]Aids is becomming a very serious problem. There is a popular goverment sponsered program where if people donate blood, they can get cash. The blood is deposted into a central vat and mixed together. The plasma is extracted and red blood cells are injected back into each donors body. It is bad luck, maybe a buddist belief, to loose blood so the mixed blood put back in their bodies. Aids screening is unheard of so if someone donates blood with Aids, the entire vat of blood is infected and everyone who donates blood gets infected. Aids education is non existant, and thanks to the 1984 Orwellian style political culture, Aids education will probably will continue to be non-existant in the near future. Entire villages are going to be wiped out in a genearation or two.[/q]As above, heavy handed oppression and progress are concordant opposites. Just look at all the lovely little dictatorships in central Africa where AIDS is running wild now.

It's really sad how we fixate on these small middle eastern nations, which granted pretty much want nothing more than the extintion of all non-Islamic states, but they're small potatoes when compared to China. Over 1 billion strong, and with a government which isn't afraid to spit in our face... that's even scarier than AOL/Timewarner trying to own all known media :)

This is an open forum, WHAT is said is more important than WHO says it. If you want to have a personal arguement, the are better places for that.

Why do people always seem to justify their current bad behavior by pointing out what others have done in the past?

"China's not so bad, look at what you did the the Indians.."

because I can?

lol, im one of those mac lovers? no i dont think so, although nothing wrong with macs except the price...

Then what's the point of having it? Just so you can tell people you have one when they bitch at you for being a gerbil? I don't see why you bothered.

http://www.alltooflat.com/geeky/elgoog/

I have an account, I just don't use it

Man, get an account. All the gerbils look the same to me.

[quote]Was that the same gerbil I was arguing with or is it another? [/quote]

That wasn't me, I thought you'd figure out my signature by now

Was that the same gerbil I was arguing with or is it another?

You've dodged the argument. Now America is like every other form of government? Discussion over.

[q]OBEY and STFU.[/q]

You're right, to some degree spoken by every government. Only in US we are guaranteed certain rights to ignore them when they say 'OBEY' and 'STFU'. We can say no YOU STFU and sue 'em for civil rights violations. And that, my friend, is not fascism. It's attempted fascism.

The word is spelled "fascist." When the people who adopted that stealth form of socialism realized everyone could tell what they really were with ease, they decided it was no longer proper to use the term at all. It is, however, the form of every modern government in one way or another on the face of the planet. That is because they all have a regulatory state, all have executive agents doing legislative and judicial functions, and all take from the productive to buy votes from the unproductive, seeing human beings as tools for their own ends rather than ends in themselves.

And how they act in America, like everywhere, is that they're the ones doing the flag-burning, and demonstrating against their government. When they gain power, however, suddenly this iconoclasm and dissent disappears and the state religion is OBEY and STFU.

[q]Please show me oh great one, discounting present argument with an American, how facists in America treat those who demonstrate against their government and burn their own country's flag [/q]

The U.S. veritably INVENTED flag burning as a modern form of peaceful protest! Just because some people in the US don't want it to happen only means we have healthy system of dialog that allows differing points of view. Our supreme court has stated that we are guaranteed the right to burn flags by our constitution (1st amendment, symbolic speech). China? ehm well sorry your fucked.

[quote]Oooh. the everyone thinks so argument. Very cleve/quote]

I'm going at it at a level Bertman can understand, and I was being subtle about it until someone blurbed it out :eye:

[quote]You imply United States, but the reverse is true... ignorance... [/quote]

Reverse is true? Please show me oh great one, [iiscounting present argument with an America/i], how facists in America treat those who demonstrate against their government and burn their own country's flag

[q]I'd say a lot of people think US is the biggest evil.[/q]

Oooh. the everyone thinks so argument. Very clever

[qoyal citizens (termed facists) would obviously kick whoever burns their own country's flag and their president's high school photos out[/q]

You imply United States, but the reverse is true... ignorance...

[quote]If I remember correctly, you're one of those stupid Mac lovers. If so, take your useless Mac with you when you leave this country for good. [/quote]

Bystanders take note, this is what Bertman want AGs to register for - so he can insult them later on in any argument because well, he lack anything constructive to say about the topic at hand.

Your epidermis is showing.

[quote]Last time I checked, the American Indians haven't been "killed off". Yes, that period of history was a sad time for everyone involved. Not cool at all. But if you think that's the first, last, or only time something like that has happened in this world, you're wrong.[/quote]

Hey so it's perfectly normal for China to kill 10 million babies a year, because not all the babies have been 'killed off'. Yes, this period of history is a sad time for everyone involved. Not cool at all. But if you think that's the first, last, or only time something like that has happened in this world, you're wrong. (translation, so what if we did this and this and this, you still suck and we kick ass)

[quote]Notice Gerbil that I am not saying they can't take care of themselves. If you look closely and think really hard (don't hurt yourself), you'll see that I did not make a statement, but rather asked a question.
[/quote]they are 'fucked up' and US kick ass because they were

So even though China is 'fucked up', and China sucks because once 'fucked up' but no longer 'fucked up', China can take care of itself and therefore they are not 'fucked up'?

I should remember this line of reasoning next time we have an American bashing session on TR. Whenever you say 'oh yeah? you can do better?', I'll just say 'I'm not here to help you unfuck yourself' (translation, I can't do any better, but I still kick ass and you suck, on the other hand, I did the exact same things but I still kick ass and you suck)

[quote]Oh well, forget it. After all, this is America, and many Americans have died defending your privacy and rights that people in other countries don't always have. [/quote]

Welcome to the human race. FYI, I don't live in 'your' America. Privacy in America? Dude have you asked Dissonance about how many companies sell your info for 40 bucks? Like to be detained indefinitely without charge, coerced and beaten and denied lawyers and family? But hey, it's still better than Iraq so I shouldn't complain! If I don't like that, I should just move to another country!

Facist.

AG 27:

Last time I checked, the American Indians haven't been "killed off". Yes, that period of history was a sad time for everyone involved. Not cool at all. But if you think that's the first, last, or only time something like that has happened in this world, you're wrong. And how far does anybody or any nation get in life by always meekly asking, "Please kind sir, may I do xyz?" If that's the way you go about your life, that's your choice. Just don't expect someone else to stand up for you if you're not willing to stand up for yourself. It doesn't always work out in your favor.

Please allow myself to quote... myself.
"China is fucked up. What are we supposed to do, unfuck them? If they're so great, why can't they take care of themselves?"

And now you AG 27.
"Notice you are the one saying they can't take care of themselves."

Notice Gerbil that I am not saying they can't take care of themselves. If you look closely and think really hard (don't hurt yourself), you'll see that I did not make a statement, but rather asked a question.

Am I really asking you to give up any privacy or rights by suggesting that you come up with a Username so that I don't have to keep referring to you as AG 27? Oh well, forget it. After all, this is America, and many Americans have died defending your privacy and rights that people in other countries don't always have.

dmitriylm Post 17:

If "patriotism" isn't in your vocabulary, and you don't love America and what it offers you that other countries can't, go ahead and find yourself a country that you love. Go be another slave bitch in Communist China. Sing the praises (in Chinese) of your new home country.

How about France? You seem to be the type to surrender, retreat, and stick your bare ass in the air to be sodomized. You'd fit right in. After all, you're a lover (of the path of least resistance) and not a fighter (for anything at all).

I hate a lot of the stupid political decisions made in the USA too. But it's not like America has a monopoly on that. And yes, there are sooo many things wrong with this country. I can think of one right now - the fact that cowards like you live here!

If I remember correctly, you're one of those stupid Mac lovers. If so, take your useless Mac with you when you leave this country for good. Then again, maybe you're not allowed to, since we don't want to let other countries get their hands on any of our "supercomputers".

[quote]The last thing anyone needs is more uninformed & ignorant opinions such as your worthless thoughts.[/quote]

Score another for redundancy, he's not only uninformed, he is ignorant!

[quote] Go get yourself an education. [/quote]

Where did you get yours?

[quote]Then - and only then - come back and talk with us. [/quote]

Waving the middle finger while mouthing tsk tsk tsk = priceless

[quote]Kinda sounds like what the USA has done for itself huh? [/quote]

You mean killing off the Indians and take their lands, among others? Cool?!

[quote]Not perfectly of course, but much better than what China has done for itself.[/quote]

Why should any of us do anything at all then? If you can read this you are better than about I donno at least half the population in the world. who gives a fuck if I kill couple of people over 5 bucks, people in third world countries kill for a lot less.

[quote]China is fucked up. What are we supposed to do, unfuck them? If they're so great, why can't they take care of themselves?[/quote]

Notice you are the one saying they can't take care of themselves. Nowadays every European is an idiot because they try to critique American politics, and most importantly because they don't tend to offer any sort of constructive criticism - pot kettle black? Oops, I forgot the 'so what, we're still better than protists' argument. You win by default!

[quote]I'll tell you why! To put it in simple terms that even YOU can understand, some nations suck, and some kick ass. China sucks. America kicks ass.[/quote]

Osama's donkey is probably full of bullet holes instead of boot prints, but whatever. Arguing on my own level, at least China doesn't blow like Monica.

[quote]Quit making excuses for the failures of other people or other countries.[/quote]

LOOK AT IRAQ, IT IS SO BAD EVEN BUSH THINK SADDAM SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT BEFORE THE COMMUNISTS IN CHINA. Uh, Iraq sucks, China kicks ass?

[quote] You have your own problems to take care of first - like your failure to think.[/quote]

Score for insulting.

[quote]Oh, and quit being a sissy AG. Damn, can't you at least think hard enough to create a Username for yourself? [/quote]

Score another for no respect of people's privacy and people's rights. Double score for the classic 'get a name AG' insult standard from 'running out of argument about topic' manual. Very American of you!