Originally Posted by Tdean
To the Gerbil guy....
YOU sound like the fat comicstore dude in the Simpsons!
Get a life and stop commenting about your precious MAC P.O.S.\'s!
Get a job.
Get a girlfriend.
Get a life!

Mr. Brown, you obviously don't know much about computers because it is ridiculous that you see mhz as the only factor in which determines how fast processors perform. Sadly most people see computers this way and that is partly why macs sell so poorly. I myself am a pc lover, but in this situation where there is a ton of misinformation I must tell the facts as they are. Any person in the computer industry should realize that a mac cpu is different from a pc cpu, notice the name difference. They are designed differently, so different that you can't compare a mac cpu to a pc cpu in terms of mhz. There is even a performance difference in pc cpus, just look at the p3 and thunderbird, it isn't significant but its there. I disagree that a dual 500 mhz mac cpu can perform at the level of a p3 2gig(if there ever will be such a thing), but I must say that your stupid remark about how 500 + 500 = 1000 shows how intelligent you are. First of all what kind of idiot would think that if you use two chips you get double the performance. Look at celerons, does a dual celeron pc performance at twice the speed of one? NO! Also what you forgot was that you must take into account that only certain programs can utilize this feature and most programs will only be using one chip, if you are a journalist READ UP on this material instead of writing all this biased bull. But if both chips are being utilized I believe that the performance would surpass that of a 1 ghz pc cpu easily and near the performance of a 2 ghz pentium 3. Mac cpus are powerful and can beat a pc cpu mhz for mhz and more. Macs perform better than pcs, and even though a 500 mhz g4 probably can't perform at the level of a 1 ghz pc, but I bet it can perform near that level. Next time get your facts straight and stop being so biased towards pcs.

In Response to # 82

"The G3 most certainly did not make P3's lok like snails."

Maybe if you were paying attention to the snail ad you would notice that they compared the G3 to the Pentium II!!!!!!! Goddammit, get your fact straight.

I've noticed a lot of yelling on both sides. I use both Macs and PCs everyday, without fail. I will agree that a lot of the newer PCs are quite fast and will show that in just about every comparison. Watch an AMD 800 vs a G3 400. You'll SEE the difference. Although it's not amazingly different, it is a visible difference. Ok, PC people, are we satisfied yet?

Windows, on the other hand, is NOT as user friendly as the Mac OS. I've noticed that the only people can truly blaze around Windows, avoiding all of the little pitfalls, are the people in the higher end of the computer industry. By that I mean system administrators. There are many little odds and ends that people just accept on windows.

So, who is perfect? Neither. So keep screaming, both of "you," your attempts to convert the Protestants to Catholcis and vice versa will be in vain. :)

I think Captain Kirk is best in the books, Captain Picard is the best in the TV series, they're both equally good in the movies, and anyone that thinks otherwise is just plain loopy! :)

You are all IDIOTS! Go get some fresh air; you've been arguing about stupid things on the internet for way too long. The fat comicbook store owner from the simpsons is brought to mind. While we're arguing about Macs and PCs, why don't we argue about Captain Kirk versus Captain Pick-hard and have "crappy" be every other word like so many of you have done on this forum. Sheesh. I am now going for a hike OUTSIDE! Goodbye.

In regards to #84...

Things like this with ATI show all to well that Apple is concentrating too much on security and stoping leaks. What did Apple loose by ATI's early release of the statement, regardless of whose at fault? Apple is starting to win back alot of support from the general populace and even some from the business world. But just what do they think their gaining by having more secure secrets than the Pentagon? It would be nice for consumers, not to mention developers, to see a future plan for Apple's product lines. Think of what might happen if developers were ready the next time Apple decided to change it's hardware in a way that required the user's software to support it (i.e. the Velocity Engine, or, more recently, multiprocessing). OMG! They might actually have software upgrades and products available for it within a month or two instead of waiting for suport from third party developers.

To their credit, they are being alot more open on the OS side of things, making 4 revisions of OS X available to developers and a public beta sometime in Sept. (Delayed again, grrrr...). And, you can't say they didn't try to open their platorm up to competition, but when they licened their OS the competition's price was so low compared to Apple's that it almost put them out of business.

Basically, Apple makes good products, I like them (except anything that starts with the letter "i"), but they're rather stupid on the marketing and business end of things.

Oh, and by the way, I use both Macs and PC's, and I prefer Macs, but I try to stay objective, both the MacOS and Windows are good patforms overall... use whichever you like.

I noticed there a some Amiga users here. So... -Amigas Rock-!

Can't wait until the new Amigas come out! The SDK for it looks intreasting.

Apple lost the only chance they had to fix it for gamers

read below:

ATI suffers Wrath of Jobs

Apple yanks graphics cards from its new systems in apparent retaliation for the chip makers loose lips.

NEW YORK -- A leak from chip maker ATI Technologies Inc. that revealed details of Apple Computer Incs. unannounced Mac models has enraged Apple management and interrupted the promotion of ATI products by the Mac maker, sources told MacCentral. The incident began Monday when ATI, which supplies graphics cards for all Apples current models, issued a four-paragraph news release that stated its Radeon processor would be featured in three new Mac models -- none of which were announced by Apple (Nasdaq: AAPL) until CEO Steve Jobs Wednesday morning keynote address.

In the ensuing debate -- the blame game, as one person close to ATI called it -- ATI said the statement was not to have gone out until late Wednesday and Business Wire Trade Show Services was at fault. Business Wire Trade Show Services denied responsibility, according to sources, and said ATI was fully aware the statement would be released before Jobs speech.

Steve did not care who was to blame, an ATI staffer said. It leaked, and that was all he cared about. He was so upset, he would not even directly talk to anyone at ATI. Everyone talked through mediators, and that made the whole thing just an even bigger mess.

quadras rule! 32Mhz, baby! And they can actually run a decent OS(be it linux or MacOS8).

~#79

78, well said, except those extra 2.7 fps cost a whole hell of a lot less. As far as the holy war between platforms, there are two reasons why we pc people hate the mac platform, as I see it:

Reason#1: Apple's Marketing
Reason#2: Mac Users

Apple's marketing is a combination of over the top cutsey-ness, and straight out bullshit. The G3 most certainly did not make P3's lok like snails. Oh, sure they do, when you shut off the P3's L1 cache and SIMD and all the other extras, and run tests that are designed to do better on the mac. And that whole "Yummy." ad campaign made me want to vomit. Also, read my post down at #65. More marketing lies.

As far as the Mac Users go, there are some real Zealots out there. The sky is available in iMac colors to some of them. I am continually frustrated by Mac Users who (having never used a PC and refusing to do so) call ME closeminded because I hate fixing Macs. I've USED the Mac platform. Far more than I would like. I don't like it, it's unintuitive. These people call me closeminded, yet they refuse to sit down and learn Windows. It's not a 2-way street with 80% of the MacUsers I've dealt with. The other 20% did try the PC, and now they use it exclusively. Also, they bitch about Macs worse than I do. =)

In my ever-so-unhumble opinion, the Macintosh is Microsoft's worst product. (heh, that should start the fires raging)

Amiga rulez! 7.14Mhz baby!

Originally Posted by SuperRob
Well said, Gerbils 78 and 79. You guys need to get accounts here. :)

I always have loved 'fights' like this one for these reason...

1) I like to feel sorry for anyone that has so little of a life they find themselves on the internet touting their platform of choice.

2) It doesn't matter to me how you spend YOUR money.

3) Apple is still around because the Wintel world needs them to innovate and push the limit. We all know this.

The ball's been tossed back and forth and I don't think it will be dropped anytime soon. I don't think that this site did a good job of reporting. They were really reporting on an article written by CNN? Ever play "telephone" when you were little? I think this is the case with CNN. They picked up the 'fone' and heard what they wanted and did a half assed job of reporting themselves. Then again here. If you're going to quote something that was said in the CNN article, don't exclude bits and pieces at will. Somewhere you let your love of your OS take over and you decided to leave out things that made a difference in my perception of the CNN article.

It's all about perception. You see yours as best. You can't stand it that someone else may have a difference in opinion? I'm sorry, if Apple were dead there'd just be one less choice and one less company voice. Without competition you'd see the same products getting re-iterated every quarter with very slight improvments. There'd be no drive to make the most widely used platform or the easiest to use or the most stable...or what Apple's doing..shooting for all three with OSX(rumors still flying that it may be ported for x86 - if so, not soon I'm sure).

Twist my words and the fact still remains that the more computer makers/sellers and chip manufacturers there are the better. Just because Apple doesn't use x86 in their boxes doesn't exclude them from this. I'd like to see some other company with balls enough to go toe to toe with the x86's. You must give them that much.

I've used both platforms and go back and forth on which is better. Like I said, "I don't think the ball will be dropped any time soon". The price on a mac is a little on the inflated side..con. The hardware lasts..pro. The price on the PC side is very small..pro. The hardware is effected by the price and doesn't last...con. case in point; I have a quadra610 still running. It's literally been running for 3 years. And before that 3 years it literally ran for 2. I had it down for about 2 hours in between time scales there so I could upgrade the OS and drop in 8mb ram and some more storage.

There needs to be more people out there saying, "work together! move forward! Build a great product!" and less saying, "Oh, well, that sucks. The price is too high! Mine can do that too!, Dumbass (choose your OS and insert here) user!".

have at it! twist away!

For the record, I own a Macintosh. I have used and do use PCs as well. I also own an Amiga.

I am sick to death of all the time that people waste arguing over their platform of choice, and just the general speed of their computing experience.

Example: Person A talking to Person B: "Hey, I can get a frame rate of 96.7 on Quake 3, you can only get 94!!!"

I am sure that Person B is really missing out on that complete gaming experience without those 2.7 frames.

Again, with the Steve Jobs Photoshop "performance". I agree that PS is not the be all and end all, unless all you do for your employment is run the same filter over and over again 24/7.

We should not be concerned with how many milliseconds faster we can check our email, rather we should be looking at what we each want to acheive with our computer. Once we know that, we can take a look at how much money we have wish to spend and then make our OWN choice. Instead of bashing other platform users because we feel insecure about our own purchasing decision, we should collectively work together on order to achieve what we initially desired before we handed over our money.

The Internet is meant to bring us closer. If all I hear from it the lines is noise, then please sign me up for the next season of Survivor.

Some of you use PCs. Great! I don't want to hear the fps of Quake on your machine, or how much cheaper a PIII is compared with a G4. Rather, tell me what level you have reached on Quake, or show me the latest chapter of your book.

For the Mac users, I don't care if you ran the Blur filter 2 seconds faster than a 1Ghz PC. I want to see the finished product. What are you going to do with the picture. Its for the above PC user's book cover? Cool!

ok, this a fairly typical problem in Mac v. PC discussions... people actually start believeing the advertisements on both sides. Advertisements are ment to to one thing: sell that companies products. In essence the Macworld Expos are just giant ads for the Mac platform... but similar "Expos" exist in the Wintel world. Naturally Steve Jobs is going to portray the Mac Platform in the best possible light, and even embellish a bit (ok, alot) at Macworld... It's his show! I'm not going to comment on anything technical because I don't know enough on anything that hasn't already been said to make a comment. I just wanted to point out that you can't make an argument (well, an intelligent one anyway) based solely on an ad.

BTW, it is a known fact that many Apple perphials (i.e. monitors, that fancy new-fangled keyboard and mouse set, and even at times their computers as well) are overpriced, it's just company overhead I can buy a replacement remote controll for my sterio from the same company who made it for $60, or get a universal remote that'll work just as well for about $15 at Wall-Mart. It's the same thing.

Also, lose the colors, its revolting to walk in to a computer store
and see all this funny looking plastic shit. what ever happened to having a black case and monitor being cool????

#74

Its people like you that make pc users (like me) hate macs and their users

if you like macs so much go find a mac message board.

now shut up and leave.

P.S. macs do have good points but I'm too damn cheap to buy something I cant play games on, and since photoshop isn't the only app i use, a mac would be slower anyway.

AMD ALL THE WAY!!!!!
ASUS ALL THE WAY!!!!!
NViDIA ALL THE WAY!!!!!
CREATIVE ALL THE WAY!!!!!

apple down the shitter with the rest of the trash they think up,
marketing sells computers to idiots, performance AND value sell computers to the rest of the world.

your fucking stupid, the g4 cube does have a handle IDIOT its on the bottom retard, if you flip it over thats how you open up the case, to add more stuff, and any person who spills something on the top of the cube deserves to be shot for there own stupidity, and anybody could spill something on the top of there peecee tower and have it go into the fan causing the computer to fuck up, so you cant bitch about there design, pcs arent exactly water tight or water proof either so shut the fuck up, and i do think steve knows what the fuck he is talking about if he is the CEO, and dual 500mhz G4 is faster than a P3 2000mhz, who cares if adobe photoshop is geared towards macs, you know why that is, cause macs are better, pcs dont have what it takes to do those photoshop filters, too bad, you can add all the gighertz u want, but they will never be as fast as a MAC your just writing this article cause your just unhappy with your pc

imac has an apple stuck in its ass

Sorry this is so late but idiocy has no statute of limitations.

From #9
The only good thing Apple has ever made in their soon to be ended life is that 22-inch LCD display . . . I doubt it has the capabilities to run at high resolutions with refresh rates above 60hz.

Refresh rates on a TFT display like the new Apple Cinema display do not need to be higher than 60 Hz. Active matrix LCD displays do not have to scan like a CRT because there is no electron gun. Each pixel updates simultaneously so there is no flicker, even under fluorescent lights.

If what you say is true about ima'c why has the apple stock rebouded and what single factor brought back the company from the brink of extinction?

that's it, i'm now sick of all the colors that mac's come out with, i think the feds should do something about apple offending pc users through the use of colors! does anyone realize that the imac's resemble womens undergarments? ha ha ha! and what outdated idea is it that customers dont care about what is inside? jeez even a 5 year old would soon want to mix and match hardware inside as he pleases or as he needs!! Steve get a life! port your os to run on intel/amd systems, and ofcourse you dont have to give up making those silly computers in all shapes and sizes and colors.

free wisdom

Originally Posted by SuperRob
Now ladies ...

I\'m just going to say that I\'ve used both Macs and PCs in my lifetime. I\'ve found PCs (running Windows) to be more user-friendly, and easier to muck-around inside of, than a Mac.

That\'s why I use a PC. Period. I\'m not going to get into the bashing any further because it\'s quickly becoming pointless.

AG #67:
so blow it out your scrawny, mac defending A$$.

Me from post #48:
let me know when Cadence VHDL and Verilog run faster on a Mac with 4 processors (oh wait they don't make those!) running OS X than a Sun Sparc Station with 4 UltraSparc III processors...better yet just let me know when it runs on OS X at all :-)

Ummm...yeah...me and my mac defending a$$.
BTW: at home I run Linux on a celeron 300A.

AG#67, I don't necessarily defend mac, but I will point out discrepencies of other people when they spread false information. If a totally new Mach based kernel with new interface API's to maintain backwards compatibility does not constitute a complete re-write of the system, I suppose you are correct.

And if you think you can get OS X out faster than the OS guys at Apple (some of them are the most respected guys in the industry, such as Avadis Tevanian, Jr.) why don't you go join the team. I am not defending Apple here, but rather all operating system authors. OS's are the most complex systems level software and to expect anyone to be able to put out a quality system on the timescale that most business manager types expect is horribly impossible. Go take an advance computer science class on operating system design and you will see what I mean. I have spent many allnighters trying to finish projects for that class. Hardest one in all my college carrer. I find microchip design to be a breeze compared to trying to create an operating system.

I wrote #60:

Veritas -

I'll believe OS X is a total rewrite when i see it, or if I even see it
released before I die, based mostly on the fact that apple has never redone the mac OS, and even if it is a totally redone platform and works good, companies (esp. GAME MAKERS)
still won't make games for it becuase apple has fucked large numbers of them in the ass as far as support goes so in the end I'll still be using my Athlon 800 (faster than any G4 Made)
with my Creative GF2 (faster than any mac video chipset)
except maybe for radeon but how long will you dumb mac users have to wait.

so blow it out your scrawny, mac defending A$$.

#41 wrote:
"And 2nd, he's more bias and one sided than Regan on Russia."

The russians killed more innocent civilians than the nazis, by far. I guess Winston Churchhill was biased against Germany, too?

This is typical of Apple. I was at a Mac product demo/sales pitch at my place of employment recently. This is some of the crap they tried to shove down our throats.

"ColorSync is exclusive to the Macintosh" - So I guess the ColorSync control panel on my machine when I was running Win98 w/ a G200 was a mirage

"The Macintosh offers better visual quality than the PC. The G4 supports 16.8 million colors." - Ooooooooooh! That's AMAZING!! Heh, visual quality my ass. ATI simply blows.

"Mhz isn't important" - Don't get me started.

"The case can be opened while the computer is running. A user can add memory or change video cards with ease." - OK, so they didn't say it directly, but it was STRONGLY implied that you can change hardware while the machine is running. Boy, that would have been hilarious to see.

Oh, and to whoever said that iD is switching over to Mac, once again this is the mac community twisting the facts. Carmack said he may, if OSX turned out to be better. Well, I think we know how that will go. Apple never lives up to their marketing.

Also, they kept pushing FireWire. The PR guys' reactions were a riot when a coworker of mine listed off the specs for USB 2. They essentially resorted to 'Uh-uh!' and 'Shut up you big meaney!' style rebuttals.

AG #61:

Before you say something you should make sure you have your facts right. OS X is not based on Linux, but rather on BSD. BSD is a another flavor of Unix, but is definitely NOT Linux. It is based on the Mach Micro kernel rather than Linux's monolithic kernel. That is a huge architectural difference. Now, as to whether or not a micro kernel is better than a monolithic kernel is still a topic of much debate...(but I digress)

AG #60:

OS X != OS 9

Sheesh...X is a total rewrite of the Mac OS.

All your whining and complaining is really moot.

Mac lovers will buy the new Macs because they're Macs. They don't care if it's faster than a Wintel machine or not, because they don't want a Wintel machine, they want a Mac.

If ya don't like em, don't buy em, it's that easy :)