What about Symbian?

I love my Nokia E71x cell phone.

There, I said it. Question me all you want, but I’ve tried everything else out there and stuck with Nokia. I’ve used the iPhone—almost half of my co-workers and even my mom has one. I’ve used Android on both the G1 and myTouch, and yes, I’ve used the Palm Pre and multiple Blackberries, too. I’ve even spent far more time with Windows Mobile than I care to admit… yet after trying all of these alternatives, I’m so thankful I got a phone that was inexpensive, well-made, and running Symbian under the hood.

Canalys market share data for the second quarter of 2009. Source: Wikipedia.

If you live in North America, you may be surprised to hear that Symbian, the operating system on all Nokia phones (and a handful of others), is by far the world market-share leader in the smart phone arena. Nokia doesn’t seem to market quite as aggressively in this part of the world, though. Perhaps our hodge-podge of competing cellular technologies (GSM vs. CDMA) is to blame, but the good news is you can still get nice, unlocked Nokia phones from online retailers as well as a few branded Nokia phones from AT&T.

The real question is, why is Nokia outselling everyone else by such a big margin? Well, I have a few ideas. First off, I believe the company’s hardware is second to none. Among their glossy plastic rivals, Nokia phones and their all-metal casings really stand out. My current E71x has plastic only on the buttons. My previous E62 was almost as plastic-free, too, although it did have a plastic battery cover on the back.

Second, Nokia doesn’t seem to cater to any single type of user. Sure, I hate touch screens with a passion, so it makes sense that I love the E71x’s hardware keyboard. Other people aren’t as crazy as me and would probably prefer the N97. If flip phones are your thing, Nokia has you covered there, as well. While all of these devices will feel quite different in your hand, they’re all very similar under the hood. They all run Symbian, so if you’re familiar with one of them, picking up and using another will be a breeze.

Symbian’s most popular incarnation, the S60, has also been around over eight years now, so Nokia has had a long time to get things right. Installing, switching, and removing applications is all pain-free, and customization options are available in spades. The built-in browser was great four years ago when I first used it, and it continues to impress reviewers. The latest revision even supports Flash to some extent. I have no complaints with the Personal Information Manager programs, Office-compatible document editors, or included utilities, and I enjoy the trouble-free syncing to Gmail and Google Calendar.

Combine this solid platform with a device that has all the hardware features one could hope for, and you might start to understand why I’m raving about my phone. The E71x is an AT&T-branded version of the hugely popular E71, sporting an all-black look and a slightly modified version of the third-edition S60 OS. I got mine for free upon renewing my contract, which I was going to do anyway, so the price alone made me a happy camper.

For a “free” phone, the E71x really comes with a surprisingly long list of features. 3G, Wi-Fi, and a built-in GPS receiver were the big three for me, but there’s also a video-capable three-megapixel camera with flash, a 2.5-mm headphone jack, and enough battery life for a couple days of heavy use.

Some readers may now be wondering why I didn’t get an iPhone, seeing as I’m on AT&T already. Well, as I said earlier, I’m no fan of touch screens. I know plenty of people can type quickly on the iPhone, but even if I was among them, I know I wouldn’t like using it regularly. I perform standard tasks without ever looking at my phone all the time—for instance, locking and unlocking the screen, creating an e-mail, or pulling up a quick call back to the last person who tried to reach me. I also walk outside a lot in harsh Chicago winters, and having to take off my gloves just to use my phone would be a deal-breaker.

Then there are the apps.

I’m absolutely sick of hearing about the iTunes App Store. Before Apple made it, people like me were used to another way of getting third-party software you might have heard of—Google. All I’ve ever had to do to get any program for my Nokia phones (and my circa-2003 Dell Axim with Windows Mobile) was search for the functionality I wanted and the name of the operating system I was using. I have yet to run across paid software that doesn’t have a free alternative listed in the same search results or mentioned in a related forum post. The scope is huge, too. Outside of a program that would give me mobile access to the Hamachi VPN I use, I have yet to find myself longing for an app I can’t find.

Unfortunately, thanks to Apple’s meddling in the cell phone market, that’s all changing. Every mobile phone vendor out there is working on its own app store, from Microsoft’s Windows Mobile marketplace to Nokia’s Ovi store. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not against companies making their products easier to use, but what bothers me about this shift is that users (at least most of the ones I’ve talked to) honestly think other manufacturers are copying Apple by supporting third-party applications.

Whether it’s the purist in me or the tinkerer, I’m not certain, but it simply irritates me to no end when people credit the wrong party for something. Every time someone tells me about their sweet new iPhone app, and I reply “I’ve been doing that for years,” I get a blank stare. Some people honestly don’t believe me until I show them. Apple definitely deserves kudos for the things it’s done right, especially its uncanny ability to turn common features among the elite into popular features for the masses. However, I really, really want people to know there are alternatives out there. If Apple took a less ridiculous stance with its marketing, maybe you wouldn’t see hordes of angry nerds like myself. Then again, this kind of inflated enthusiasm is obviously one of the key ingredients to Apple’s success.

That’s enough Apple bashing for now, though. Here’s a quick list of the programs I’m particularly fond of and screenshots of how they look on my E71x:

PuTTY – As a *nix admin, this is by far the most important utility for me. Sending control characters is easy, and lag surprisingly isn’t bad, even over 3G.

Nokia Internet Radio – Think Shoutcast, except actually quick to navigate. Nokia nailed this app by letting you browse through stations by genre or search by keyword. Put together with my Last.fm client, this app has basically made my entire MP3 and CD collection obsolete. I even use it to enjoy music that’s far superior in quality to the radio in my car.

MediaNet – The built-in Nokia browser. I use the speedy SkyFire sometimes, but the Nokia browser is better-tailored to the E71x’s display, and fonts are always perfectly crisp. Pages are comfortably formatted for easy reading, too, and the built-in RSS support works great for reading news in the morning.

Xplore – A file-management utility that gives you full access to all areas of your phone’s memory: RAM, ROM, and memory card. All standard file-manipulation options like copy and move are there, including an intuitive way to select large numbers of files at the same time. This app is very useful for helping free up space or quickly find that file you downloaded a couple months ago.

Mobile Weather – Everyone’s got their favorite weather app, but I like this one. Mobile Weather lets me set the update schedule, and it lets me keep tabs on as many locations as I want.

One last thing: AT&T seems to give iPhone users the hardest time when it comes to the really good stuff. As far as I’m aware, making calls using the data connection instead of the phone’s minutes with a voice-over-IP program like Skype or Gizmo only works over Wi-Fi. However, I can do it over the 3G connection anywhere with my phone. After getting a Google voice number and routing it to my Gizmo account, I can make and receive calls through Google voice, which lets me keep my minutes usage low. Nimbuzz, my multi-protocol instant messaging client, lets me access the phone’s entire contact list and call people with either VoiP or the traditional cell connection.

I’ve also heard setting up tethering on the iPhone is tricky, but I tether my Nokia every day I commute into the city. I’m pretty sure you can’t find programs in the App Store to let you send and receive text messages over the data connection, either. Naturally, all of these things are possible after jailbreaking your iPhone and thus breaching the EULA. Personally, though, I prefer to buy a cheaper, less-restricted device to begin with. Do you think I’m nuts, or have I convinced you to give Nokia a closer look?

Comments closed
    • fiilfinsagen
    • 9 years ago

    I want to buy nokia mobile upto 7500 rs, i searched n72, 6233 and 6300 with 2 mp cam, good sound quality, fm radio.

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    • boing
    • 10 years ago

    Finally Spotify is released for the S60, good shit!

    • Boslink
    • 10 years ago

    Europe Vs USA.

    For long i’m surprised how different point of view USA have vs EU. In Europe Nokia is No1 by large margin.

    All of their phones are rock sold and most of Europeans use phone for phoning or sms (could you imagine that!!!).

    And guess what. Most of the phones are not smartphones.

    Those that want to be “trendy” would buy Iphone but if you ask me Iphone is just a toy to show to your friends.

    I used Iphone and i can’t say i like it. I’m way to slow on it. But again i also don’t like touch screens.

    I used N97 and because of touch screen i didn’t like it too. Touch screen is nice to brag about but when it comes to writing sms or doing anything concrete nothing compares with good old keys. Yes N97 have keys but man, try to use them. For me too small

    Currently i have N95 8g and i must admit. 90% of time it’s a phone and 10% (maybe even less) everything else.

    I have navigation in it, i have fring so i can have damn cheap phone calls over IP, i use 3g and WiFi. From time to time check mail and when i really need use it to browse the web. But again to underline – that’s the phone. I use my laptop or desktop for mails and web and nothing compare to that.

    But the best in all this (and very few people point it out) is how robust phones nokia create.

    Not once i dropped my phone and it bounced few times with no damage. Once i even tried to catch it with my leg and in the process hit it like real soccer player. Flew loooong distance and nothing happened.

    Thats why i like nokia. They make phones that are robust so i don’t have to be afraid i will brake it.

    • Prototyped
    • 10 years ago

    I’ve got an E66 — basically a similar OS revision to the E71, with similar features, but with only a numeric keypad, a slider form factor and an additional camera only for video calls.

    And I think it’s fantastic.

    Hardware keys make using it as an actual phone a pleasure. There are tons of apps, both free and for-pay, available for it — many of them more mature than those available for newer, more hyped platforms.

    I wouldn’t mind a multitouch screen, but not at the cost of losing out on hardware keys.

    • playboysmoov
    • 10 years ago

    I don’t see why people are in a rage over his blog post. The Nokia E71 is a great phone in my opinion. At the end of the day all we are talking about is each other’s opinion.

    I had an original iPhone and loved it, of course it was jailbroken. I lost my phone on a trip to Michigan in October 2008 and was forced to buy the 3G version of the iPhone, because I couldn’t be without a phone. I charged the phone synced it with my PC and the phone was dead in less than 3 hours of regular use, checking emails, browsing the web, Google maps, and a couple phone calls. I was pissed to say the least.

    When I arrived at the AT&T store to buy a car charger the clerk informed me that if I wanted my battery to last I should turn off 3G. I was like, “Wow! But its called the iPhone 3G!” My experience was that I constantly had to charge the thing throughout the day. Not only did the battery life suck donkey _____ (fill in the blank) but AT&T and Apple changed the contract structure so I lost my included text messages and was paying $15-20 more a month for the same level of service. I also had to splurge another $30 bucks for a car charger.

    When I got back home I did some research and bought the Nokia E71. Here were my reasons at the time (OCT 2008):

    Great battery life with 3G enabled!
    Could finally get Multimedia messages again
    Free Apps like Google Maps, YouTube
    Wi-Fi
    Download Podcast without iTunes.
    A real turn by turn GPS map program
    Stereo Bluetooth capability
    Great Music Player
    Tethering via Blue-tooth or USB
    Expandable memory with Flash cards
    The ability to create MS Word and Excel documents while on the go.
    No New Contract! and I save $30 bucks a month by getting the MediaMax plan (unlimited Text and Web)
    Nokia build quality (everything was stainless steel except the keypad)

    So in my experience it did everything I needed plus I saved money. Win-Win for me. I also dropped my phone in water after some late nite cocktails and it worked for like four months after that with no problems then the camera died.

    During my warranty repair period, I tried the Palm Pre. It was okay, but I couldn’t tell you how happy I was when UPS pulled up with my Nokia.

    iPhones are great for people that need a portable multimedia player first and phone secondly, but I don’t want to be tethered to a charger when I leave the house or need to make a call.

    Now, in October 2009, the iPhone 3GS can do almost everything my current phone does but that’s after two OS updates and a hardware upgrade, so I’m happy with my decision to “Think Differently.”

      • zima
      • 10 years ago

      How on Earth can you describe Symbian music player as “great”? (especially the one included in E-series phones; and yes, I have one) Third party ones also don’t really bring anything…

        • playboysmoov
        • 10 years ago

        The player is great for me. I only use it when I’m at work and it does what I need it to do. It shuffles songs, displays artwork, and creates my recently played and top played. I can also pick up FM radio. It sounds decent over my bluetooth headset and it sounds pretty good through the Nokia headset. I wish it had 3.5 jack but that has nothing to do with the player.

        I have a 160 GB iPod if I want to carry my entire library and want more functionality for smart playlist and such. But for a quick fix of music it works for me.

        My iPhone couldn’t handle my smart playlist right because they depended on each other and I still don’t think that is fixed as of yet.

        What do you hate about it? What features are you missing?

          • zima
          • 10 years ago

          See, you’re talking about its features, asking what could I miss. And I wasn’t claiming Symbian music player lacks in those. But…features are NOT what makes any app “great”. Especially entertainment kind of app.

          Symbian music player is just…rough; especially when it comes to how you control it / it’s UI (also refreshing and small quirks with metadata are a bit annoying). And that’s saying something, from me, since I seem to be in a minority that actually likes Symbian UI. Even shuffling isn’t as pleasant as I’d like. After a while I just got an iPod (since I want to have Last.fm support; there IS a scrobbler background app for Symbian, so having Last.fm functionality for free seems nice…but the player is just too much hassle)

          iPods are great. SE Walkmans – good. Symbian music player (especially at E-series without dedicated keys) is at most nice / nice to have.

            • playboysmoov
            • 10 years ago

            I have to agree the UI takes some getting use to at first but after a while it what pretty simple. I mean compared to an iPhone, there is no phone or media device with a simpler UI.

            I just keep the player in my apps on the top and shuffle my library until someone walks up to my desk and interrupts my day.

            On the other hand, I love the fact that I can get TR podcast directly to my phone though without having to go through zune or itunes.

            • zima
            • 10 years ago

            It’s not about simple. It’s about pleasant. The latter is required for “great”.

            I suspect that Symbian UI model / guidelines, while generally quite good for what it is meant to do (and on what kind of devices), just doesn’t work that great for media kind of app. IMHO.

    • FroBozz_Inc
    • 10 years ago

    I’ve had my iphone 3gs for a couple months now, and in my opinion nothing else compares. My Blackjack2 and Nokia N80 (and anything else I’ve seen, really) were like using briefcase phones in comparison, especially if you are talking about web browsing and applications in general.

    Glove friendlyness: I cannot see wearing gloves and trying to use any smartphone at all personally. I live in Michigan, I’ve tried with my Blackjack2, it was impossible. Maybe with bigger buttons.. Locking the phone: One button, done on the iphone. Unlocking: one swipe, not multiple keypresses.

    Typing: I have gotten very fast on the iphone, much faster then any other phone (with keyboard) I’ve ever tried, especially if I set the thing on a desk. I sometimes get two fingers going and have really come a long way – for real I amaze myself lately with how fast I can type. No need to actually spend time PUSHING down each button, tapping is FASTER in my opinion – once you get used to it. Even more so in landscape mode.

    Putty: a quick search for SSH on the app store shows me like 5 different clients I can get for the iphone. Not to mention RDP solutions.

    I disagree with your point comparing the (yes, amazing and awesome) app store to google searching and downloading symbian apps. There’s a reason everyone is trying to copy the app store. When you say things like: “thanks to Apple’s meddling in the cell phone market,” it’s clear that you are anti-apple to begin with. There are tens of thousands of apps. The iPhone is more like a pocket computer then anything else.

    Radio: There’s Pandora on the iPhone not to mention many many more free apps for local rock stations that I’ve downloaded (94.7FM and 101.1FM I have on mine) and many many more. I love podcasts too – there’s a world of those out there.

    Texting over the data connection: There are like a dozen iphone apps that allow for this…

    Weather: OMG you wouldn’t believe how many weather apps there are.
    I have the default one, weather channel, and weather underground on mine.

    How about games? No mention of those in your post – there’s a reason that Sony and Nintendo are nervous. Gaming is pretty awesome on the iphone.

    I agree with these negative iphone points you made:
    – iPhone’s locked down nature (no argument at all to make here, unless you jailbreak – which I haven’t done)
    – Tethering – jailbreak needed in the US (I haven’t had the need for this yet, because I can usually accomplish what I need without a computer)
    – Expensive (Cost me $200 with a 2yr agreement, best $200 I’ve ever spent)
    – Impossible to type on without looking
    – sucks there isn’t a memory card slot

    Overall, if you hate touchscreens I can’t imagine you would want an iphone. I had doubts about this too at first, but they are long gone now.
    I think you are selling the iphone short because of your biases. I’ve noticed that the iphone seems to be becomming the platform that coompanies go out of their way to develop apps for first. With Symbian going away sooner or later, developers probably realize this.

      • Flying Fox
      • 10 years ago

      He was listing the apps he used, not trying to say the iPhones don’t have those apps. We now have more iPhone apps than most other smartphone apps (except may be WinMo).

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      You sure about texting over the data connection? I’m not talking about instant messaging.. I’m stalking about sending texts directly to other cell phone numbers.

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        Perhaps those websites that you can send SMS messages from?

        • FroBozz_Inc
        • 10 years ago

        Yes. Standalone apps, not texting form a web page

        Some of the app names I see there are:

        Textfree Unlimited
        iTxt
        textPlus
        Free SMS Unlimited
        Unlimited SMS

        I may be looking into this soon, as I’ve been texting far more then I used to with the iphone. I have a 200 text limit and I think I’ve been exceeding that.

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          Ouch! Texting the kids a lot these days? 😉

      • FroBozz_Inc
      • 10 years ago

      I forgot to mention a couple things:

      Like how awesome it is the way the apps queue up program updates automatically from the app store. Easy to always stay updated as developers fix bugs and add features. The updates are free.

      Or how good the auto-correcting is when typing, and it gets better as it learns from you – it’s uncanny.

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        I forgot if the E71 does auto-correct, but the suggestions are pretty good IIRC.

        That said, I like the handwriting recognition in the iPhone OS (iPod Touch too) for Asian characters. It is not a learning thing but as it is I can work with it.

    • TO11MTM
    • 10 years ago

    I was torn about what to get for the longest time as far as cell phones, but I eventually settled on a G1. It was a compromise, for sure, but the best for my needs. The Choice of having a flip out Hardware or (Eventually) Software Keyboard was what won me over over iPhone OS or Symbian. I’m an unapologetic ham-fisted goon, and just plain type faster on a real (if small) keyboard. Plus Flippy-thingies are always a plus, right?

    Symbian is nice for a normal phone, but really doesn’t seem to be made for a smart-phone as much as a Kludge-phone. My father’s Nokia while having a nice build quality is absolutely horrendously counterintuitive to get things done in compared to Android/iPhone.

    That said, I couldn’t stand iPhone’s lock in, and the average apple user’s Smarmyness. (Is that a word?)
    Blackberries have everything I hate about a software keyboard combined with the all the worst of a bad hardware keyboard.
    Windows Mobile scares me.
    PalmOS… well is it dead now or what? I’m kinda confused on that. Palm using Windows Mobile is not a good sign, in any case.

    Android runs Java Bytecode, and even though the hardware for the G1 supports Java acceleration, it doesn’t do any good since Android runs some ghetto VM and the G1’s hardware wants Sun’s Java. I’m fairly convinced at least one or both of these facts (Java + weird JVM) leads to the fact that my G1 is absolutely pathetic at multitasking. The thing has about as much power as a P3-500 (or so,) And yet my K6-233 could do 2 times as much in Windows, and about 4 times as much in Slack7, with about the same amount of RAM without slowing down to a crawl.

    That… and that bit where it’s Java. On the plus side, it’s not Objectionable-C! =)

      • Chrispy_
      • 10 years ago

      Smarmyness – may be the best description of your average apple user to date.

      a good portion of Apple owners seem compelled to forcibly advertise Apple products for no obvious reason. I think it’s the Emperor’s New Clothes effect of the hardware world, and the apple fanbase are sold the most expensive product with slick marketing and too [lazy/bigotted/brainwashed] admit that other products are of comparable quality.

      “I am right so you are wrong” is pretty common but it would appear that “you are right too” is not an option to most of the Apple fan base.

      So. Apple has great style (marketing) and ease of use as a theme in all of their products – that’s commendable. However, I think it’s the irrational belief that these are all that matter which blinds the fanbase. Value, flexibility, performance and diversity actually count for just as much, if not more. It’s a shame I like OSX so much, otherwise I’d probably go on a rant or something….

      /rant.

        • TO11MTM
        • 10 years ago

        I have a friend who’s a Mac user.

        Every time she hangs out she extolls the virtues of her Ipod touch, as she prettymuch uses it like an iphone wherever she has Wifi, which is most places around here nowadays.

        Evey time, I go *flip* “BAM! Hardware Keyboard!” with my G1 and she stops talking. =) If she doesn’t I start talking about stuff I can do with a G1 without having to jailbreak my phone.

        Adobe:
        Please put Flash on one platform or another and we can settle this. Thanks.

        Which reminds me, speaking of rant,
        Adobe Photoshop Zoom in and out = Alt + Mouse Wheel
        Adobe Acrobat Zoom in and Out = Ctrl + Mouse Wheel
        What the boat, Adobe?
        Come to think of it, I’m afraid to see how bad flash would run on ANY mobile OS.

          • Tamale
          • 10 years ago

          flash works on symbian.. both in skyfire and the built in browser 😀

          • Chrispy_
          • 10 years ago

          Adobe are a mess. We are one of three companies in living history who have struck up a licensing deal with Adobe and they have no clue about consistency or deployment methods. Their CS4 products fail to install on a clean, fresh install of XP Pro x64 SP2 and AdobePDF is shockingly innacurate for detailed CAD prints.

          I think the best examples of “how terrible Adobe is” can be experienced by almost anyone: The largest security hole in Firefox to date was a Flash Player exploit, and Foxit reader is orders of magnitude faster and leaner than Acrobat Reader.

            • TO11MTM
            • 10 years ago

            My day job is CAD. Every time I PDF a drawing a part of me dies inside.

      • adisor19
      • 10 years ago

      Err, maybe the reason your G1 feels slow as a dog is precisely because the ARM chip inside is just a plain old Qualcom ARM11 core ? I have an HTC Touch CDMA from work running a cooked winmo 6.5 build and it’s so slow sometimes, i wanna throw it on the wall. It has the same CPU as you G1.

      If you want power, then your options really are the : 3GS or the Palm Pre. So far they’re the only shipping devices with a Cortex A8 ARM CPU.

      Adi

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        The G1 is also version 1 hardware, which is not always good anyway.

          • adisor19
          • 10 years ago

          The HTC Hero is NOT v1 hardware and yet is still has that POS Qualcom ARM11 CPU when the 3GS has been rocking a Cortex A8 for months now. Seriously, where are you going with this ?

          Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            I can ask you the same thing. When it comes to phones, it is the whole platform. Just harping on a newer CPU is too narrow of a view. Matching software is required. Most iPhone people in my social circle stick with their 3G with the “inferior” older CPU and to me the phone works fine.

            Bashing the ARM11 like you do, to me, is unfair. When it comes to cell phones it is not always faster and newer hardware and whenever they don’t use what you want you call them POSes. Speed is only one of many factors when building a device. Power consumption, cost, intended purposes (and others) of a device are also very important. The iPhone can afford the newer CPUs because of its somewhat larger footprint compared to other bar-shaped, non-touchscreen phones. If you put the new CPU in that form factor battery won’t last as long. It is all about compromise.

            My assessment on the current Android platform is that the hardware is still predominantly 1st gen. With the Hero, HTC is focused on adding software to the platform. Design/implementation familiarity/experience is also a factor in making these choices. The manufacturers may still be waiting for Google to put out a Gen2 reference design, among other things. I haven’t seen a real G1/Hero/Magic in action yet so I can’t comment on how slow or POS-ish they are, but your view of “not CortexA8 CPU = sucks” is too blanket of a statement which I have big problems with.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            Again, how can you still be defending your point of view is beyond me !

            The ARM11 core is ooooooooold. I can’t state that enough. I have an iPhone 3G and i’ve played with a 3GS and it’s a night and day difference. Optimising the app code can only take you so far. The only way to speed thigs up is to use a faster CPU.

            Why is HTC putting out new phones with ARM11 cores ? Cause they’re CHEAP, that’s why. As a result of that, those phones are slow and totally suck on multitasking OSes. (Winmo being a prime example) Why did Nokia release the N97 with an ARM11 CPU ? For the exact same reason : it’s cheaper then the Cortex A8. It’s got nothing to do with size. Open up an iPhone 3G and a 3GS and you’ll see that everything is packed inside just as tight on both versions and yet, bat life is better on the 3GS.

            The 3GS is not only twice as fast as the 3G in general application performance, but it manages to get better battery life as well ! Where is your argument now ?

            Adi

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            You’re not listening to his argument at all.. he’s saying that the speed isn’t a big deal, thus the hardware in use isn’t that big of a deal either.

            You’re one of maybe a tenth of a percent of cell-phone users out there who actually notice when a phone is unresponsive enough to complain about the CPU it’s using.

            • MadManOriginal
            • 10 years ago

            Yes he’s treating a CED like a PC where the individual parts directly impact user epxerience because you’d be running the same software on different hardware. CEDs are about the sum not the parts. It’s not that the 3GS isn’t fast & smooth either it’s that getting all worked up about which particular CPU a smartphone uses is silly.

            Also, the iPhone OS isn’t really multitasking 😉 so it’s funny to see him harp on that.

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            q[<...getting all worked up about which particular CPU a smartphone uses is silly.<]q That is actually very prevalent in comments whenever a new phone is announced on sites that discuss cell phones. People will always zero in on things like CPUs, megapixels, xenon flash, etc.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            And i completely disagree with that. While computers in general have gotten to a point where the hardware is “good enough”, Smart Phones are NOWHERE near that. Using ARM11 with multitasking OSes like Winmo makes 0 sense. There’s a reason why Palm also went with the Cortex A8 for their Pre. The writing is on the wall. Too bad, most consumers are oblivious to that.

            Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            0 sense to you, but some sense for manufacturers. The only way to change that is to the good old “vote with your wallet”. You can scream on top of your lungs about this, but it is not going to change the manufacturers’ action with that alone.

            Note that I am actually not disagreeing with you in that we need those newer CPUs, but I wouldn’t call the older CPU architecture POS. Would you call the P6 architecture POS? It served its purpose and the market well during its lifetime, and we should give credit where it is due. It’s like you have some internal hate/rage against it or something.

            Edit: the original iPhone uses an ARM11 too, does that make it a POS? I actually prefer the look of it with the brushed aluminum look. Also, ARM11 is kind of an umbrella term. Different vendors can pick and choose other components to augment the platform, making it “less suck” in your terms. Like in the original iPhone, they picked PowerVR to help with graphics, that is the building block nature of the ARM architecture.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            I’m aware of the building block architecture of ARM based SoCs. I’m also ware that the original iPhone as well as my 3G has an ARM11 chip in it and i have identified this as being responsible for the lag i notice when doing certain operations on my phone. This is the reason why i’m advocating anyone that plans on buying an iPhone to get something with a more potent CPU so that they don’t have to suffer through the slowness of the ARM11 based designs.

            Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            q[

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            l[< Yes, it is faster, but not "night and day" fast.<]l WHAAAA ? Just the simple switching from landscape to portrait in Safari takes it from a FULLY choppy animation to full buttery smooth transition. That's night and day right there. Also, did you try opening Apps and timing that as a comparison ? Just opening Navigon on my 3G seems like an eternity, while on the 3GS, it's just a few seconds away. This is the reason why apple hasn't allowed multitasking or background processes on the iPhone. I have a feeling however that starting with iPhone OS 4.0, it will be introduced but only for the 3GS and up models. The CPU in a smart phone is more important then ever. Adi

            • MadManOriginal
            • 10 years ago

            q[

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            No. Play with a Winmo phone a bit with the same CPU and see how that feels for you.

            Adi

            • MadManOriginal
            • 10 years ago

            You’re still missing the broader point about CEDs but I guess I’ll chalk this one up to your Apple loving.

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            CPU power is one thing, battery life is even more important.

            We have “multitasking” since Windows 3.1 on puny 486’s. Running multiple programs on a single core is a matter of RAM (where the system can hold all that stuff in memory) more than the CPU because of context switching. Of course faster is always better.

            As I see it, the main problem with multitasking on modern day smartphones is battery life. Look at the jailbroken iPhone with background apps, or Symbian phones when people forgot to turn off their background apps, battery life goes to the toilet.

            Speed, power consumption, and costs are really important factors. I would say they pretty much are on equal footing. You seem to be on a different opinion, which is fine.

            Still, it is not POS as you are making out to be.

        • xtalentx
        • 10 years ago

        OMG SHUT UP ABOUT THE ARM11 ALREADY HOLY SHIT YOU BRING IT UP LIKE EVERY OTHER THREAD.

        Now look what you did you made me have an episode….

          • adisor19
          • 10 years ago

          Guess your phone has an ARM11 chip slowing it down too eh ? It’s ok, it’s ok, eventually you’ll buy another phone with a more powerful chip.

          Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            I have a feeling that he was joking, so it is either your humour detector is off, or mine is too sensitive today. 😛

    • Ashbringer
    • 10 years ago

    I thought Nokia was trying to switch to another OS, like the Android? Also, developers hate making software for it, from what I’ve heard.

    iPhone is doomed to fail IMO. It’s way to restrictive of a platform. I’d hate to have to constantly fight Apple, just to jail break my phone. Not to forget, no SD card slot.

    Windows Mobile sucks because Microsoft treats it like how they treated IE. Once they dominated a market, they left innovation alone. All of the sudden, iPhone takes control by offering real innovations. Windows Mobile 6.5 is really a pile of garbage.

    Android is the future I think. Very Open, and has all the same features as iPhone, but doesn’t suck like WM. If only Google can get developers to make more apps for it though.

      • adisor19
      • 10 years ago

      Oh boy.. not sure where to begin with your post..

      l[

        • Tamale
        • 10 years ago

        before blackberries came around windows mobile and palm OS were pretty much the only smartphone OSes.

          • dpaus
          • 10 years ago

          Uh, did you ever hear of the millions of smartphones running this thing called “Palm OS” and the thousands of apps for it?

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            whoops.. yup.

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        q[http://gigaom.com/2009/08/11/nokia-fully-commited-to-symbian/<]§

        • eitje
        • 10 years ago

        Ugh. I hated using Xcode & ObjectiveC. I much preferred developing for WinMo using Visual Studio.

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          Can you elaborate? It is not often we get a “contrarian” view.

          • adisor19
          • 10 years ago

          Wait, what ? You’re the first i hear to prefer developing for WinMO then for iPhone. What’s so bad about XCode ? I know Objective-C is the complete oposite of C++/Java but the IDE itself is way better. There are so many tools included especially for optimisation that are simply absent on Windows. DTrace/XRay comes to mind..

          Really what’s so bad about XCode ?

          Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            Visual Studio should give a pretty competitive experience. Are you sure the XCode IDE is “way better”?

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            I’ve seen the iphone xcode ide.. it’s got nothing on visual studio. visual studio has been held in high regard for a long time.

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            To be fair, it probably beats the crap out of the Symbian dev environment. From what I heard the dev env of iPhone apps is pretty good.

        • zima
        • 10 years ago

        l[

          • Tamale
          • 10 years ago

          Interesting, thanks for the clarification. I assumed all S__ platforms were a ‘flavor’ of symbian.

            • zima
            • 10 years ago

            Adding to that – now look at chart of smartphone market with Symbian having just above 50% market and remember that Symbian forms just a minority of shipped Nokia devices. If I would have to guess – around 20%. It has plenty of space to grow.

    • Flying Fox
    • 10 years ago

    Hey Tamale, have you tried the AT&T navigation app yet? I remember TheGuru was pretty pleased with it. What’s your take?

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      I think it’s OK, but nokia’s newest maps is much better.. and free 🙂

      Personally though, I use google maps 99% of the time I need to use the GPS.. it’s just plain quicker and I don’t care about voice-nav.

    • ReAp3r-G
    • 10 years ago

    This is quite interesting as I own the E71 which I bought unlocked. It’s actually really comfortable to use. The keyboard looked deceptively small, but I manage to text and email far quicker than I had before using alphanumeric input. Love this phone is all I’m saying 🙂

      • Flying Fox
      • 10 years ago

      Glad you like the phone, along with all the other happy E71 users.

      As some of the people have said here, “to each his own”. There is almost a nicely matched phone to each other, really no need to tromp in here and say “my phone or the highway”. 🙂

    • glynor
    • 10 years ago

    I guess maybe I don’t use my smartphone the same way as many tech enthusiasts do, or something, but… I just don’t see why some people are so obsessed with hardware keyboards. Clunky, inflexible, and “in the way” hardware keyboards are what *[

      • jinjuku
      • 10 years ago

      Agreed. My wife has the latest a greatest Black Berry and that thing sucks compared to my iPhone.

      I absolutely had the micro-chiclet keyboard. It’s clunky and eats up valuable realestate.

      Only my Samsung Windows Mobile based phone was worse. I am still amazed how MS could treat a phone like a pint sized computer instead of a phone. What a hack.

        • Tamale
        • 10 years ago

        Out of curiosity, do either of you have to wear gloves for half the year? I don’t think I’d mind a touch screen as much if it worked fine with gloves on, but last time I tried that didn’t work so well with the iPhone.

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          LOL, as much as people are bashing resistive screens, the glove/fingernail thing usually shut them up. 😛

          And obviously most people forget about the blind/near-blind in these kinds of discussions, plus the people who need to operate a phone without looking (haptic feedback is a way to address this issue but it has a long way [if ever] to go).

          • glynor
          • 10 years ago

          I live in Maine.

          It still isn’t a problem for me. I own combo mitten/gloves where the top folds back and your bare fingertips are exposed. Also, I suppose I don’t use the phone very often when standing outside in the winter. The size of gloves I’d need to use wouldn’t work on a tiny hardware keyboard anyway…

          Either way, I had my phone all last winter and it was never really a problem.

          As far as operating it without looking… I guess this just never happens to me either. I mean, I’ll use the volume up/down rocker, and the play/pause/ff features on the headphone plug, sure… But I don’t ever need to do anything more complex than that without looking at the screen.

          Like I said… To each their own.

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            cool, thanks for the response. I’ve seen those gloves you’re talking about before.. pretty smart.

          • adisor19
          • 10 years ago

          You do know there are gloves out there that work with capacitive screens, right ?! Cause really, if that’s your argument against capacitive screens, you’re clearly nitpicking..

          Adi

          • jinjuku
          • 10 years ago

          I wear mittens…

      • Usacomp2k3
      • 10 years ago

      I don’t think I could own a phone without buttons. I do so many operations without looking, whether it be opening the calendar/calculator/memo pad/voicemail or calling people (speed dial), I couldn’t live on non-physical buttons.

    • Voldenuit
    • 10 years ago

    I used a S60-powered Nokia N70 for over three years. It was around well before the iPhone, and for years, enjoyed better features (MMS and video calls were nowhere to be seen on the iPhone at the time, and the latter still isn’t available), better apps (and many more free ones) and better battery life (I only had to recharge it once a week, or twice if I was using it a lot).

    However, it was rather bulky, and eventually gave in the ghost after lots of physical scrapes (that would have totally demolished an iPhone, btw).

    I picked up a Sony Walkman w302 phone for cheap because I just needed something cheap that could take and receive calls. I mostly keep in contact with my friends over skype anyway – yes, I know that skype is available for S60 and iPhone, but then you have to pay for a data plan.

    The iPhone is a staggering example of marketing done right. Not just selling a product to people, but convincing them that it’s what they want. It’s really a pretty decent product, but it’s still got lots of flaws and shortcomings – like no video calls, and lack of compatibility with most car bluetooth systems due to lack of sim activated profiles – that consumers would not have accepted in any other product. I’m not sure whether to give props to Apple or indict the clueless masses over this. Probably both. Meanwhile, nokia goes about its business of making phones that actually work :p.

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      Sounds like we’re pretty much on the same page. I’m really impressed with a lot of mobile devices out there, and expect that they will all keep improving greatly in the next few years especially.

    • David
    • 10 years ago

    Why are you comparing the App store to Google? Did you decide you didn’t see the point in cars or bikes when you could just walk?

    What’s the point of your post overall? Several of your complaints about the iPhone should be directed at AT&T.

    Besides all of that, Symbian is on it’s way out thanks to Maemo.

    I really want to play with the N900.

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      I’m not comparing the app store to google, I’m simply pointing out that Apple isn’t the first to make a phone that can have further functionality through the use of third-party apps. You’d be surprised how many people don’t realize this.

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        Apple wasn’t the first one to put out a portable music player too. They popularized it. To that we have to give credit where it is due.

        Of course, letting people think they invented it is just what they won’t complain. Like Al Gore claiming to be the inventor of the internet? 😛

          • Usacomp2k3
          • 10 years ago

          While Al Gore didn’t invent the internet, he actually was pretty instrumental in bringing wide-area-networks to be more mainstream.

        • Satyr
        • 10 years ago

        Actually, technically you /[

          • Tamale
          • 10 years ago

          Uh.. but I’m not upset 🙂

          I welcome criticism and knew this post was going to ruffle some feathers. The key is there’s a difference between being upset and being concerned. I’m concerned about people being informed, and that’s the biggest reasons I’m a journalist in the first place.

          There really is no comparison between the App Store and Google.. the App Store is an actual attempt to bring things together, while the process of searching for apps is the ABSENCE of the same attempt.

          My point is that the iPhone is being paraded around as the first phone with “Apps”, and this simply isn’t the case. This is why I’m sick of hearing about the App Store.. yes, it’s an improvement.. but no, it’s not as big of a deal as Apple is making it out to be.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            I think you’re looking at it the wrong way. Nobody said the iPhone is the first smart phone with apps ! I really don’t know where you’re getting this vibe from especially since the iphone had been out for a full year with no apps in sight. Ya, Apple’s marketing is making sure everyone and their mother knows that the iPhone has apps(and recently, especially GAMES) as they’re trying to push the device not only as a very potent smart phone but also as a replacement for the PSP and the Nintendo DS. But it doesn’t say and nobody is saying that it’s the FIRST device with 3rd party app support !

            What you should recognize is that Apple brought these apps (all 85 THOUSAND) of them just one tap away compared to searching left and right on Google and forums to try and potentially find what you’re looking for. This is innovation. No other smart phone maker had done that before afaik.

            Oh and as much as it’s a la mode to hate on Apple these days, at least hate for the right reasons : closed platform, insane app store rules(no pr0n), control of carriers over certain features(no MMS untill a few days ago on ATT, no tethering on some carriers)etc etc. There are quite a few good reasons to hate the iPhone, but the ones you mentioned don’t really count.

            Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            Again, it is the perception. Most people around TR probably know the difference that iPhone is not the first phone with apps. However, if you look at the unwashed masses (we do have “normal” friends you know) they may be RDF’ed into believing that the iPhone is the first.

            Of course, that is partly the other people’s (other smartphone OS vendors) fault too for not marketing better in the first place.

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            I share your beefs with Apple.. I’m just offering a few personal problems of my own that I have with them too.

            My sensation of Apple pushing that they’re the first to do third-party app support comes from the general ‘vibe’ of the entire mobile sector. Technology review sites, mobile review sites, news outlets, personal friends, and all other sorts of media outlets never talked about third-party applications on mobile devices like they are now.. and I contend this is Apple’s doing and intent. It’s pretty easy to see that it’s a good thing for the industry as a whole.. but I believe it’s also good to know that the reality is it’s an evolutionary step.. not a breakthrough. I’d say the real breakthrough came when we realized we could have an active internet connection on our phones in the first place. Make any more sense yet?

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            I think this is your problem right there : you’re resenting all this media attention that the iPhone has been getting while your beloved S60 is basically on the chopping block. Ya, it sux when your platform of choice is about to lose its supremacy.

            The reason the iPhone is getting so much attention IS 100% related to the fact that it brought all those apps to the tap of a finger. This is something that 90% of users out there can appreciate right away and hence you see all those blogs, all those newscasts, all those “sheeple” toting their iPhones left and right. If you can’t recognize this as true innovation, you’re in denial.

            And yes, my Winmo phone had an always on Internet connection and so did my BB. And it was amazing but nobody was going crazy about it because the browser sucked beyond belief(and still does on Winmo) and nobody besides the most hard core corporate e-mail junkie or the random geek cared about it. It took the iPhone to come out with a real browser in order to get regular pple to use it. Again, this is real innovation. Bringing the real Internet on a smart phone that everyone can use with ease. If you don’t recognize this as the real innovation, then you’re in denial.

            Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            S60 is not on the chopping block (yet). They have renamed themselves to be Symbian and there is a plan to take it further. Of course whether Nokia will take this open sourced product in the future is a different matter. But there is a high degree of probability given their existing user base. I am guessing that Nokia is just leaving all options open as a form of hedge, which is very common with a company of its size.

            Lots of people get confused with Mameo, which is designed for tablet and a larger form factor. Can Mameo or even Moblin be taking over in the future? Sure it can, we should see if there is any sign of this if and when Intel releases something worthy for smartphones post-Pineview. Their low power Atom platform is still orders of magnitude away from the milli-watt range of today’s ARM processors.

            As for browsers, S60 had a pretty good browser before the iPhone, and Opera has been running on Nokia phones for a long while too if people don’t like the default browser. However IIRC they switch to a WebKit based browser in 3rd edition or something. So again, it is not Apple being first.

            • Satyr
            • 10 years ago

            l[

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            I don’t know much about spotify, but what can it do that grooveshark cannot?

      • Flying Fox
      • 10 years ago

      Well, it is a blog, does it really have to have a grand, rational, and analytical point? 😛

      I think the jury is still out whether Mameo will replace Symbian. Symbian is now with its own foundation and it seems to have a bit more life around the developer community than before. Mameo is designed for another platform and we don’t know at this point if they want to make that the de facto OS for everything, from tablets/umpc/mid to smartphones to feature phones. This may not be practical, yet.

      • jackaroon
      • 10 years ago

      How can you compare [changing software by touching stuff on the phone] to [changing software by touching stuff on the phone]? Did you decide you didn’t see the point in [using a machine that propels thousands of pounds for hundreds of miles at speeds that are impossible, even unthinkable, to achieve using the human body alone] or [a machine that can more than triple human movement speed] when you could just walk?

      I think your metaphor is a little off-base.

    • DancinJack
    • 10 years ago

    AT&T can go to hell.

    • SomeOtherGeek
    • 10 years ago

    Wow!! There is a such a phone? Nokia? So, yea, I’m most definitely giving this a look especially for 80 bucks.

    We have been BB users forever. The 8700g has been an awesome pager and changing to a full touch screen gave us the chills. We like physical contacts. Is that a deaf thing?

    Anyway, speaking of deaf, we use only data plans as phones don’t work for us, I have looked all over the site and I can’t find one. So, a question, when you use the internet or email, you get charged or how does that work? 40 bucks/month for pager with minutes, I’m not too crazy about. There is a AT&T store within walking distance, so I guess I better take a walk and find out.

    Rant or not, it was a good blog. I don’t care what others say, I like to hear personal opinions and then I’ll make the final decision about what to get. But opening doors is definitely the way to go. Which is why I like TR so much – diversify.

      • Flying Fox
      • 10 years ago

      q[

        • Usacomp2k3
        • 10 years ago

        Unless you get an unlimited data plan.

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      With any smartphone, an unlimited data plan is the only way to go. I’m a pretty strong believer that aside from a very few specific cases, most people with smartphones will find the practicality of an always-on data connection to be totally worth the cost.

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        Tell that to -[

        • SomeOtherGeek
        • 10 years ago

        That is what I’m asking. If I get the basic plan, does it come with an unlimited data plan? T-Mobile (who suck in coverage) has a data plan only with the phone turned off for 30 bucks/month.

        Battery life, we can go a week before charging, so it is not a battery hog to roam for an internet connection. Oh yea, if you use it full time it might run it down, that part, I don’t know. But it is a habit to charge it every night, no?

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          Data plan is usually on top of a voice plan. I don’t even know some offer data only.

    • OneArmedScissor
    • 10 years ago

    I love my old Nokia from years and years ago, because I only had to charge it what seemed like once every two weeks. :p

    Now, it seems like some phones barely make it through the day. PROGRESS.

    • Skrying
    • 10 years ago

    Symbian… it’s a dying platform. Nokia knows this and it is clearly shown by their spending on future platforms for their phones. But some how this blog is filled with even more ridiculous fanboy ranting than the Mac blogs, which is a bit shocking.

    You act as if having to Google an application is a good thing. It is not, in fact its HORRIBLE. The App Stores biggest advancement is the centralized and easy to use nature. It does other great things to such as making it easy for developers to be paid for great applications and making it extremely easy for users to pay for those applications.

    Your lack of grasp on why the App Store actually is very innovative is extremely telling. Do you care a bit about real design and ease of use? User experience? It doesn’t seem like it. Nope, Apple wasn’t the first with application support but it was the first to introduce it in a way that was a central element to the phone. It was the first to make it easy to manage and use those applications. It was the first to foster and unify all of the applications in a way that was pleasing to users and developers.

    Your blind bashing got in the way of any point you tried to make. Sure, this is a blog and it is all opinion but opinion doesn’t have to equal fanboy type rants. Your “type” (found in virtually every Apple related piece on TR) is nearly as bad as Apple and its fans.

    Instead of writing a piece that was constructive and pointed out time lines or was realistic about the state of S60 you decided you must bash Apple. You did your bashing without even full education on the platform you are bashing. Most of the limitations you’ve stated are a result of AT&T and not Apple. Many of them (tethering, Skype, etc) are easily done outside of the screwed up system that is the US Telecom industry.

    You’re basically fighting fire with fire and when you finally turn around to grab a water hose you realize your facet has melted away. No, you did nothing to increase my interest in a new Nokia phone. Nokia did by becoming aware to what mistakes they’ve made and taking action to resolve those. You just flat out ignored it. You’re drinking more kool-aid for S60 than Nokia is!

      • MadManOriginal
      • 10 years ago

      You do realize that in your reply you spent more time riding Apple’s nuts than the blog did directly bashing Apple. Some of the points are personal preference (touchscreen) and this is a blog so that’s expected, in other cases the ‘bashing’ is just example-counterexample and not blind because it’s detailed and based in fact such as the last two paragraphs.

        • Skrying
        • 10 years ago

        The entire premise of his blog post is to be up in arms over the market share of S60 phones in the US or at least the public perception of S60 phones.

        The entire post is written in fanboy manner throwing around superlatives all over the place in favor of Nokia phones.

        If you want to go from direct mentions only then you can start at the “Then there are the apps.” line. There’s much more in that forward than in my comment.

        In a blog or not I find it very hard to swallow such bias. Blogs are editorial material but at some point we can all say “your opinion is without merit” simply because it is so full of fanboy irrationality. If I read an opinion piece I still want solid and reasonable opinion to be within it. A editorial doesn’t give you room to suddenly drop reality.

        Reality is Nokia themselves see the current base of S60 as a dead end. Without serious modification its market share around the world will slip to not only the iPhone but other platforms. This blog post could have been a wonderful piece on what is great about S60 and what is not. It could have had opinion about what he believes to be needed improvements or what needs to be changed. It could have even been about why he prefers Nokia phones over other options. But it wasn’t any of that. It was a rant on being upset that not everyone agrees with him and he doesn’t understand why.

          • SomeOtherGeek
          • 10 years ago

          Um, I think you need to read the blog again, I didn’t get that impression, but I try reading things with an open-mind. A rant is Charlie. But then that is me and who gives a shit?

          • adisor19
          • 10 years ago

          While i wouldn’t go as far as you have in criticizing his post, i do agree with the gist of it : Nokia’s S60 is a dead end and the author completely ignored WHY this is the case and decided to bash on Apple instead of addressing any of S60’s shortcomings.

          Joshua, i hope you’ll post a follow up blog post where maybe you can address some of the points brought up in our comments 🙂

          Adi

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            I think you and Skrying are misunderstanding the thrust of my post. I’m not necessarily discussing the future of cell phones or even trying to predict where I think they’ll be later.. I’m simply offering my thoughts on a phone that’s available now compared to one of the most-talked about and covered phones in the market.

            I get a little tired of hearing about the iPhone so much. Sure, it’s nice.. and I’d never hold it against people who like it for the things it’s good at.. it’s just not for me and I have a feeling there are more people out there like me that would like to know what some of the alternatives can offer.

            I know S60 is on its way out, but considering how far it’s come and how well it stands up to its more modern competitors, I find it very capable and impressive.

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            Would you have done a little better rewording some sentences to make it sound not so bashy? Sure, but that defeats the purpose of a blog. A blog is not really an editorial, but more like an opinion piece. You can afford to be a bit more loose with the tone and stuff. Of course in the process you attract a few angry mobsters, but this isn’t the first time one of TR’s blogs got some fiery responses.

            And didn’t I tell you that you were just asking for trouble talking about those JesusPhones? 😛

            • Skrying
            • 10 years ago

            So you needed to add bashing into your blog post to prove that? Your blog post came off as simply disregarding the advancements that have been made and downplaying them. Maybe I’m riding some issues with your tone and wording but I think an post on how well the S60 has stood the test of time would have been great. But a praise article that plays ignorant to many of the wonderful advances all of the new generation of smart phones have doesn’t seem to get that point across.

            Features such as application stores should be PRAISED for their improvements over the past. Googling to find applications simply doesn’t hold a candle. The tethering situation is to be rightly bashed but it has a place and it has to be directed at the right party.

            • Tamale
            • 10 years ago

            It seems like there’s really only one point you’re not clear on.. I’m OK with praising the App Store for making an improvement to a common process. I’m NOT ok with Apple or the many commenters on the iPhone suggesting that the iPhone is the FIRST or ONLY phone with third-party applications.

            The Apple bashing comes from a deep-seated desire for the public to be better informed, and I take issue with the way they misrepresent the real state of the marketplace to make their products look better than they really are.

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          q[

            • Skrying
            • 10 years ago

            Really? You read that sentence in a completely different structure that changes the tone and meaning? Because I didn’t. His wording, if not his intent…, suggested that Googling application was on some level of par as a manufacturer sponsored and operated application store. Be it from Apple, Google, Palm, RIM or soon Nokia themselves a centralized application store is a tremendous step in improvement over having to search the endless sea in search for a app meeting someones needs. His throwing that off to the side is not only frustrating from my view but ridiculous. It lacks any real thought on the issue. Again, a blog post this might be the writer still must consider the scope and audience and their opinion must still be backed.

            If I derive an opinion from facts I should still post those facts. If I derive an opinion from a purely subjective topic then I should at least make some attempt at understanding why my opinion is widely considered the inferior choice.

            “I’m absolutely sick of hearing about the iTunes App Store. Before Apple made it, people like me were used to another way of getting third-party software you might have heard of—Google.”

            That’s what I read and it doesn’t seem to sound anything like what you read or rather reworded. If I’m to assume he meant what you said, or how you perceived/read it, then I’m also to assume he also no clue what the App Store or any application store is.

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            Are you Ragnar Dan’s friend? You guys seem to be able to read a lot more (and often different) things from the same piece of writing. Don’t know if that’s a good thing or not.

            With regards to the AppStore, Tamale didn’t mention the payment and dev relations bits of it so I can’t be sure whether he is aware of that or not. You are correct that in addition to the searching and categorization of apps, which one can easily do before any centralized repository with a capable search engine like Google, those additional bits bring forth a big improvement in the entire experience (or “ecosystem” in marketing speak). I agree with that totally. Apple does a few more things right than others that’s why they deserve their marketshare gains.

            That’s not his point though, he’s just talking about the searching and categorization bit, and how it has been there before the AppStore comes along.

            • SomeOtherGeek
            • 10 years ago

            I’m also not so sure about the AppStore thing too. When you are on your PC and you are looking for software, how do you find them? Google or AppStore? To me, an AppStore is very limited whereas the web searching is broad and diverse. How is the smartphone any different. Sure, Apple made it easy for people, but they also limited it for the people who want little more variety.

            That is just my 2 cents.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            You can search the App stoore directly from iTunes. You don’t even need to have an iPhone. Try it out and then come post here what’s easier : Google or iTunes.

            Adi

            • SomeOtherGeek
            • 10 years ago

            Google. Not physically, but still. I don’t want music either. I want to look at software for Windows PC. Is that possible?

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            Sorry, i think i misunderstood your previous post..

            Adi

    • indeego
    • 10 years ago

    Nokia–>Nokia–>Palm(windows mobile)–>Samsung(Windows Mobile)

    Next up will almost certainly be Nokia, if Verizon can get some. Man those phones just *[

    • Saribro
    • 10 years ago

    Heh, I keep ending up with Nokia too, I’ve stopped trying to analyse it though :).

    • ssidbroadcast
    • 10 years ago

    Typo:

    q[

    • MixedPower
    • 10 years ago

    A bit off topic, but I always hear about how good Nokia’s smart phones are. Why, then, can’t they make a decent basic phone? My family has had numerous basic phones from Samsung, LG, Motorola, Pantech, and SE, and all have been at least decent. My Mom gets phones from her company, which is Nokia-exclusive. She’s had about four or five different basic models so far, and they’ve all sucked. Build quality is by far the worst I’ve seen, the interface is pretty mediocre, and they don’t have any features to set themselves apart from better phones that you can get for free.

      • Flying Fox
      • 10 years ago

      Which ones did she have? May be she did not get the ones that are good? Then again, in the carrier-controlled lower end of the market, Nokia’s penetration in the US is pretty bad. Those other brands you mention do a lot better. However, if you buy quad band Nokia imports some of the feature phones are pretty good.

      As I mentioned in another posts, a lot of those flip Nokia feature phones are not so good. However, when it comes to candy bars they pretty much get them right. I point you to the old 6300 classic (unfortunately it is only triband) and 6500 classic as the pinnacle of Nokia bar phone designs.

        • MixedPower
        • 10 years ago

        They’ve all been flip phones. I find it strange that the leading phone manufacturer in the world consistently makes such poor quality basic phones. I know they’re meant to be dirt cheap and not much else, but still.

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          Flip phones were never Nokia’s forte unfortunately, even to this day.

            • rhema83
            • 10 years ago

            Agreed. I have always stuck with Nokia’s bar phones. When I went to college in the US I was quite surprised that Nokia didn’t have much penetration in the market. In Europe / Asia, Nokia is probably the number 1 cell phone brand from the low end to the high end. Even when the iPhone was launched here in the East, it barely made a dent in Nokia sales. People still jump on the E71 and N97.

            Honestly, after trying many brands of phones (Moto, LG, Samsung, TCL, Ericsson, Sony Ericsson, Philips) I came back to Nokia. Reliability and battery longevity are key.

    • adisor19
    • 10 years ago

    Symbian as shaped in S60 is a lost cause and a dying platform. I know this, Nokia knows this, what i don’t get is how come YOU don’t know this.

    The only good Symbian implementation was UIQ on the P800 and P900 series from SonyErricson but somehow, they managed to run it into the ground even without the iPhone.

    Nokia is going towards Moblin/Linux so you should consider looking elsewhere in the future for your future needs.

    Also compare the S60 interface and ease of use with the iPhone and no matter how much of an s60 fanboy you are, you can’t tell me with a straight face that S60 looks and flows better then the iPhone. (yes i’m aware iPhone doesn’t do multitasking… YET)

    Post that chart up again in a year to see which one of is wrong 😉 I have a feeling that S60s percentage will drop bellow 40%.

    Adi

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      Fanboy or not, I don’t see anything difficult about S60’s interface.

      If you don’t like touch screens, you’re going to be stuck with menus.. and when it comes to menus, I think Nokia has done a great job of making them quick to navigate and easy to customize to your needs.

        • adisor19
        • 10 years ago

        Yes, from all the non touch platforms, i agree with you : S60 is the one that stands above the crowd. At the same time however, its lack of eye candy is becoming uglier by the second. Heck, even RIM has strived to make their OS look slightly updated..

        Adi

          • Tamale
          • 10 years ago

          I guess I’m not really all that interested in how attractive a mobile UI is.. as long as it’s functional and snappy I’m happy.

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            Snappiness is quite important. All those transitional effects in the iPhone OS are starting to bug me too, but I have to admit they are faster than the S60 3rd FP2 effects when they were first run on “older” hardware.

            Your E71x is one of the faster S60 3rd devices around. If you talk to older E/N series users you will see they are not exactly snappy, even without the transitional effects of FP2. Battery life is not exactly stellar either (think the older renditions of the N95 and subsequently the N96, ouch).

            There have been rumours about Nokia moving to TI’s OMAP3 (or 4?) platform, we will see if that brings us any more speed.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            All of the Nokia phones running S60 use an old generation ARM11 CPU so yes, their transitions (especially on the N97!!!) are quite choppy etc. The iPhone 3GS is 100% snappy, something i can’t say about the N97, Nokia’s current flagship touch phone.

            Say what you want but i’ve yet to see the 3GS stutter or slow down. The N97 on the other hand.. ’nuff said.

            Adi

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            If you pay attention to the Symbian chatter (I suppose you are not), the N97 isn’t exactly known to be fast. For some reason the faster 600MHz CPU goes to the E52, E55 and the E72. And you know what, Nokia is getting some flak for this (and that’s why I have the E52 on my short list now).

            ARM11 or CortexA8 or whatever, it does not really matter. As long as it does the job. Just like those Q6600s are working wonders to most folks even around here. You don’t always have to go to the so-called latest and greatest. Not everything must follow the Apple way. 😉

            And besides, Tamele said no touch screen as his requirement. So unless there is an iPhone with a physical keyboard/keypad, it is somewhat irrelevant.

            • adisor19
            • 10 years ago

            l[

            • Flying Fox
            • 10 years ago

            Run software that has less bloat on those “slower” CPUs? I seem to remember those feature phone OS on crappy hardware that is snappier than any smartphone OS. There is still a sizeable crowd that does not need all the features of modern day phones.

            • MadManOriginal
            • 10 years ago

            Um, no he’s exactly right and actually says the same thing you do if you think about it – if a consumer electronic device can do what it needs to do well it doesn’t matter what’s under the hood. Your examples are just ones of underpowered devices. If it’s too slow then it’s too slow but whether it’s using X Y or Z processor doesn’t matter i[

          • Flying Fox
          • 10 years ago

          You need to have a nice talk with Madman, he prefers an /[

      • ElbertHurrye
      • 10 years ago

      I guess it wasn’t SE sinking UIQ, but Nokia.Best parts of UIQ were said to be integrated to S60, but did that ever happen…

      I agree that S60 UI designers don’t get it. Minuscule writing and icons tucked to one corner of smallish idle display may look OK on 24″ (cinema?) display. Why waste most of the screen unused?

      Multitasking, sure… Phonebook, messages and like are /[

        • zima
        • 10 years ago

        UIQ got into Symbian Foundation assets, and even previously was sompletelly separate from Nokia, so I’m not sure how they could kill it…SE incompetence in the past 2 or so years is more to blame.

        Also…you really didn’t ever try to push “hang off” button of ANY Nokia phone (not only Symbian ones) to return to home screen from whatever you’re doing?…
        And what’s with this left open nonsence…

      • A_Pickle
      • 10 years ago

      SOMEONE is pissy that they don’t have any Google Voice support, tethering support, the ability to multitask, a lack of an “approval process” for applications, a microSDHC card slot, and in-general the concept that someone would /[

    • Philldoe
    • 10 years ago

    * Do you think I’m nuts, or have I convinced you to give Nokia a closer look?*

    Yes actually you have. I was about to begin setting up a Sprint account and get a Palm Pre, but after looking into this phone, I may very well go with AT&T. Had this phone been from T-Mobile I’d have skipped as they have very bad coverage in my area, but AT&T covers my area entirely, and with 3G speeds, but they only do /slightly/ better than Sprint, but hey, this is free with a contract so it’s a deal maker.

    Thanks for the heads up Josh.

      • Flying Fox
      • 10 years ago

      I have confidence that you will find the thinness and battery life to your liking. The physical keyboard may be a tad small if you have relatively large hands, but it is still a real keyboard.

      The only knock at this point is probably the 2.5mm headphone jack, but I never see why people hate a converter so much.

        • Philldoe
        • 10 years ago

        Eh, I’ll be using a bluetooth headset so that little thing won’t matter to me esspecially as little as I use even that.

    • Flying Fox
    • 10 years ago

    Careful careful, this may attract all those iPhone fanboys ruining a nice discussion. 😛

    I am a Nokia guy at heart, but I have to disagree with a few things:
    – only the E series is most metal, the N and the 4-digit ones are not exactly good in terms of build quality and can vary from decent to pretty bad
    – 5th edition is a good start, but unfortunately only really for people who are already familiar with S60 looking for a touch experience
    – sure the 3rd party apps are there, but Apple’s draw somehow managed to suck in more developers for that platform. Not that the S60 dev platform is weak, if you look at the S60 SDK, it is actually quite powerful in that you can choose Java, C++, or even Python
    – Symbian signed is a downer somewhat, I hope they do something with it once the Ovi store is up and they release the next version
    – in US/Canada, carriers are just too powerful and they want phones that are comparatively crippled if you look at those unlocked/unbranded imports, that has always hampered Nokia’s penetration in the market unfortuately
    – the firmware upgrade story is still weak, Ricky Cadden complained quite a bit and I agree with him, the whole software experience sort of sucks and when Apple manages to do so well in that area this makes a big difference

    That said, I am waiting for that black E52 NAM to come!

    • blazer_123
    • 10 years ago

    Excellent Editorial!

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      thank you! I’m new to this blogging thing, so please criticize and comment freely.

    • Prion
    • 10 years ago

    I like all those videos where the chicks are using them.

    Ohhh wait, Sy*[

      • Corrado
      • 10 years ago

      I lulled, I’ll admit it.

      • FroBozz_Inc
      • 10 years ago

      hahaha! nice.

      • no51
      • 10 years ago

      Took me a couple seconds to figure out what you were talking about and when I got it, I laughed out loud.

    • FubbHead
    • 10 years ago

    I love you man. 🙂

      • Tamale
      • 10 years ago

      uh.. do I know you or are you just a fellow nokiazen? 😀

        • Flying Fox
        • 10 years ago

        You 2 are not the only one. Problem is the iPhone fanboys will be coming out in droves now to counter this. 🙁

        BTW, I think FubbHead is a Euro guy, Nokia is quite big over there…

        • FubbHead
        • 10 years ago

        I’d be surprised if you did, I just appreciate the voice of reason. 🙂

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