Are Valve and AMD about to ruin PC gaming?

When the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One were announced earlier this year, I saw it as a victory for the PC.

Soon, it seemed, bringing major blockbusters to the PC would be easier than ever. There would be three major gaming platforms—the PlayStation 4, the Xbox One, and the Windows PC—and each one would be only a slight twist on the same basic formula. Each one would feature an x86 processor, a DirectX 11 graphics chip, and its own, custom-tailored operating system. How could it get any simpler?

It couldn’t. Instead, it got more complicated.

Last month, Valve announced SteamOS, a Linux-based operating system built around the eponymous game distribution service. SteamOS will show up on a whole lineup of Steam machines next year, and although it will let users stream games from Windows PCs, it will also run games natively. On the operating system’s reveal page, Valve teases, "Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014." In other words, big, third-party publishers may soon offer games for both Windows and SteamOS.

On the heels of Valve’s announcement, AMD revealed Mantle, an API that lets developers optimize games for AMD hardware. Unlike Valve, AMD wasn’t shy about naming one of its partners. A version of EA’s Battlefield 4 optimized for Mantle will be released in December, not long after the game’s scheduled October 29 debut. Other partners will no doubt follow, as will other titles.

Now, all of a sudden, next year’s gaming landscape looks to be shaping up very differently. Instead of three major platforms based on a common hardware architecture, game developers will face two monolithic platforms and a fragmented one—the PC—that will have two starkly different operating systems and three different APIs—Direct3D, OpenGL, and Mantle.

SteamOS will complicate things by virtue of its existence. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it become so successful that games must be ported to it, yet not successful enough to dislodge Windows completely. If that happens, then developers will have no choice but to support both Windows and Valve’s operating system. This will mean extra work. Given the funding and time restrictions game studios often grapple with, we may see longer delays between console and PC releases as a result—not to mention lower-quality ports.

Mantle is kind of a double-edged sword, as well. While it may simplify some facets of cross-platform development, allowing console optimizations to be shared with the PC, Mantle may also encourage developers to prioritize AMD hardware at the expense of Nvidia GPUs and ever-faster Intel IGPs. In a worst-case scenario, non-AMD systems will end up delivering a second-rate experience, with worse performance, worse image quality, and more bugs.

This could all make PC gaming somewhat daunting to newcomers. Today, buying a decently powerful PC opens up access to a huge library of games, from point-and-click adventure titles to the latest cross-platform shooters. Next year, things will be different. Because of SteamOS, not all gaming PCs will be able to run all PC games, unless one is prepared to install a second operating system. And because of Mantle, buying a machine with a GPU from the wrong vendor could mean missing out on critical optimizations.

Now, don’t get me wrong. SteamOS and Mantle also have the potential to do great things for the PC. Microsoft’s custodianship of the platform has been marred by stagnation and split loyalties, and Valve could do a far better job, especially in the living room. Mantle may also enable optimizations that let PCs match or surpass the performance of next-gen consoles more easily. That could make PC gaming more, not less accessible, even if buying an AMD GPU is required.

Nevertheless, I think it’s a dangerous time to tinker with the PC gaming formula. We’re on the verge of a new console cycle, and the PS4 and Xbox One are about to reduce the PC’s performance and image quality lead by a long shot. Next-gen consoles will likely be more affordable than comparable gaming PCs, as well. If the PC becomes too fragmented, and if playing games on this platform becomes too complicated, then I fear we’ll see many folks take the easy road and switch to a console.

There’s always been talk about innovations on the console front spelling doom for PC gaming, and it’s never been true. Today, however, I worry that innovations from within the PC camp are threatening the platform. At a time when the line between PCs and consoles is getting blurrier than ever, too much fragmentation could damage the platform beyond repair. And PC titans like AMD and Valve would only have themselves to blame.

Comments closed
    • sleepybison
    • 6 years ago

    Let me just say that I think this looks like it could be fun. I’d be willing to give it a try — I’m not afraid of change, and if it’s bad, I can always go back to my PC permanently. I wrote a post about it on my blog, actually: [url<]http://www.mekanikalblog.com/2013/09/steamos-valves-console-killer.html[/url<]

    • jihadjoe
    • 6 years ago

    xkcd approves of this blog entry’s headline!

    [url<]http://xkcd.com/1283/[/url<]

    • superjawes
    • 6 years ago

    This is just a comment to round the total number to 400…399 was bugging me.

      • BoBzeBuilder
      • 6 years ago

      Now let the 401 bug you.

        • superjawes
        • 6 years ago

        401 doesn’t botther me. Being so close to another hundred comments does (did) 😛

    • jessterman21
    • 6 years ago

    Hey, Cyril – you made Yolk’d! And Paul butchered your name!

    [url<]http://youtu.be/H-47RpeyDp0?t=6m30s[/url<]

    • sunner
    • 6 years ago

    Everything useful—-pro & con—-has been said in this old, 400-post Thread.
    Everyone’s gone home; only one or two of us barflies are left.
    Time to close this bar, put out the lights.

    • FriedPopcorn2
    • 6 years ago

    Almost 400 comments to an article that can be summed up by Betteridge’s Law:

    [url<]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines[/url<] I call this a "slow news day filler"... We the consumers are better off with *less* options. Really?... Free market, competition, all that jazz... that really doesn't ring any bells for you? Name one point in history, in *any* market, when the consumers were worse off because of an excess of options. The only down side i see in this is that AMD consistently makes the right choices (regardless of comercial success of said choices... 🙁 ) and NVidia consistently makes all the wrong choices... which could lead us to an Intel/AMD market on the GPU front.. i.e. less options...

    • FriedPopcorn2
    • 6 years ago

    posted twice… sorry… :S

    • AMPinoy
    • 6 years ago

    I think there is a pure bias with this article. With introduction of new API, we will just have another selection on where to render the frames..(selecting DX11, OpenGL, NVAPI or Mantle depending on what the application supports.) It does not mean making other non-AMD machines work second rate. AMD machines will benefit from optimization. now the word itself says it all. There is no down grade, only upgrade. Now if the problem is that you don’t want Intel or Nvidia systems be out gunned by AMD systems then you have a problem with your self being a fan boy here.

    • dashbarron
    • 6 years ago

    The hate given to Cyril between this blog and the wonderfully satirical NSA piece (which went over a lot of heads), it would be no wonder if he never writes another one again.

    Don’t get discouraged.

      • AMPinoy
      • 6 years ago

      Well sometimes being a writter is supposed to be being in the middle. you’ll be banged up if you are a bias

      • Diplomacy42
      • 6 years ago

      Was that the one where he embraced his Google overlords and voiced his desire that the NSA put a camera in every shower, err… living room in America?

      if it is, then I would posit that Cyril intentionally picks dramatic, indefensible positions and is unlikely to care what people say about his writing.

        • Cyril
        • 6 years ago

        You do realize that the NSA thing wasn’t supposed to be taken at face value, right? 🙂

    • Lee_144
    • 6 years ago

    Too many software choices is bad for the PC platform?

    I don’t think “too many choices” is a bad thing in a free market. Choices keep the competition on it’s toes and the weak get eliminated. Innovation is a good thing.

      • indeego
      • 6 years ago

      A free market however does not guarantee products getting ported on time (or at all) to a second or third tier platform. Nintendo is finding this out real-quick. (PC Users found out with Red-Dead Redemption.)

      If Valve or the PC (or both) fragment enough from consoles, there’s a serious risk of abandonment of a platform.

      You might be able to say the same about the consoles.

    • Terry
    • 6 years ago
      • LukeCWM
      • 6 years ago

      TL;DR

    • HisDivineOrder
    • 6 years ago

    Mantle didn’t last long.

    [url<]http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/appbuilder/archive/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d.aspx[/url<] [quote<]We are very excited that with the launch of Xbox One, we can now bring the latest generation of Direct3D 11 to console. The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality. Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.[/quote<] [url<]http://vr-zone.com/articles/gliding-obscurity-consoles-mantles-crust/60434.html[/url<] [quote<]For AMD, this is a rather large backtrack from what it implied at #gpu14. It also throws into doubt the position it has been taking all summer. The company was confident that it was moving to be the dominant GPU platform because its IP powers both major next-generation consoles, and it is launching what it called a cross-platform development tool to ease development on common GCN platforms. ... Now that Mantle has been confirmed not to be on consoles, it’s quickly looking like another Glide. Should Mantle have been cross-platform, supported by both major consoles, the competitive bargain of the new and relatively unknown API would that it would have enabled much simpler cross platform development. With the cross-platform development factor out of the equation, and Mantle not open to the public until 2014-2015, as per AMD’s Corpus, why would developers use it instead of sticking with tried-and-true open standards? The eulogy of CUDA and PhysX was written because “our industry doesn’t like proprietary standards” as Roy Taylor said.[/quote<] [url<]http://www.anandtech.com/show/7420/microsoft-comments-on-state-of-direct3d-mantle-support-names-xbox-one-api-direct3d-11x[/url<] [quote<]Finally, in an unexpected move, Microsoft also used the blog to quickly address the subject of AMD’s Mantle API, specifically saying that the Xbox One doesn’t support it nor OpenGL. The fact that Mantle isn’t supported comes as no surprise – Xbox One already has its own low level constructs versus the still in development Mantle – but we weren’t expecting Microsoft to comment on the matter since they aren’t involved in the development of Mantle. Though this unfortunately doesn’t shed any further light on the big question of just what Mantle adopts from the low-level programming constructs in Direct3D 11.x.[/quote<] PC gaming is saved. Cue the dancing ewoks. [url<]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cvhtwwy3lY[/url<]

      • Chrispy_
      • 6 years ago

      And yet the PS4 uses OpenGL….

      Developers will work to the lowest common denominator unless the individual companies dangle a large enough carrot in front of them to make it worth the extra effort.

        • ssidbroadcast
        • 6 years ago

        Or if the XBox One doesn’t sell well.

    • Imp
    • 6 years ago

    I don’t agree with this!
    I want to be free to decide on wich os i wanna play and not be forced to use Windows!

    That’s why I think SteamOS is a good move into the right direction.

    • entropy13
    • 6 years ago

    I think the only thing missing in the comments is mentioning Apple.

    Oh.

    • xeridea
    • 6 years ago

    SteamOS is just stupid anyway. If you want to play games on your TV, just hook up your computer, or make a HTPC. They are fragmenting the market creating huge development hurdles for 0 benefit. I love Steam as a distribution service, but this is stupid. Just as stupid as all them lunatics who want to try to game on Linux, and throw up huge complaints that they can’t hack up a game and get it to run. There is a reason Linux will never be mainstream for desktop use… fragmentation, there are literally thousands of distributions…. And Unity is just horrid. Drivers are always a huge PITA to install, littered with bugs (in part due to fragmentation), and just a pain to work with in general.

    Mantle has huge potential benefits, and little to no drawbacks. Making things hard for Nvidia isn’t a good reason to not use it, if one company has a clearly superior product, you should use it.

      • Airmantharp
      • 6 years ago

      The only difference between a ‘computer’ or an ‘HTPC’ and a Steam Machine is that the SteamOS-based Steam Machines will be exclusively *nix based, obviating the need for Windows in the gaming realm.

      And that is, by the way, a good thing. We only need Windows to be able to run high-end games AND MS Office at the same time, really.

    • Meadows
    • 6 years ago

    Cyril, I hope you’re proud of yourself. More than 320 meaningless comments on a fearmongering blog post whose title [url=https://techreport.com/blog/25491/are-valve-and-amd-about-to-ruin-pc-gaming?post=766936<]ends in a question mark[/url<]. You didn't just open a can of worms here. You [i<]conjured[/i<] a can of worms. Out of thin air. [i<]On a worm-free skiing resort.[/i<] That analogy sucks intensely. And so does this blog post.

      • Cyril
      • 6 years ago

      I know, right? Here I was, thinking that the blog section of a PC technology website would be the perfect place to voice my concerns about the future of PC technology—and convinced that the readers of said website would enjoy the opportunity to debate the issue. Tisk tisk. 😉

      Guys, this is an opinion piece. I brought up this exact topic in a conversation with readers at the [url=https://techreport.com/news/25442/tr-first-vancouver-canada-meetup-a-success<]TR meetup in Vancouver[/url<], and the response there encouraged me to address that topic here. I'm sorry I used a question as the title instead of something like, "I have concerns about the impact that SteamOS and AMD's Mantle API may have on the future of the PC as a gaming platform, but I may be wrong about this matter." However, I don't think the contents of this blog post, when read in their entirety, can be construed as baseless fear mongering. SteamOS and Mantle, coupled with the arrival of next-gen consoles, have the potential to change PC gaming in a very real way. That change may be for the better, or it may not. Whichever way things shake out, we should be able to discuss and debate the matter without taking things so personally. We're not discussing the government shutdown or global climate change here. We're talking about hardware (and software) that lets you play video games. Nobody ought to be getting this worked up.

        • Meadows
        • 6 years ago

        I know this is an “opinion piece”. You have no doubt also noticed that my emotions remain largely unshaken. But do the rest of your readers know all that? Quickly skimming through the comments suggests “no”.

        Also, did you notice how your second approach to the topic suddenly became so much less sensational? The first time you use the phrase “[b<]ruin[/b<] PC gaming"; yet the second time you use softer terms like "concerns" and "change PC gaming". Why did it take you this much flak to drop the dramatism? (An opinion piece is one thing, but pulling a Charlie Demerjian is another.) You're right, we're not discussing the USA government or climate change, but you still used the same vocabulary to incite the same panic in your readers. "Daunting", "critical optimisations" (Critical, seriously? How is a game optimisation critical?), "dangerous", "threatening", "damage the platform beyond repair". These are most of the words you used to rile up your audience. Do you know why opinions can't be wrong? Because by definition, an opinion will always have some sort of fact behind it. Your "opinion piece" is really a speculation piece, lacking any and all facts. (Understandable, because the announcement is fresh, but bear with me.) Do you know what you call an opinion that [i<]isn't[/i<] backed by any facts? A belief. What you shared here was a belief. What you shared here was your fear. You expect your readers to discuss [i<]fear[/i<] without taking things personally. ...I don't need a degree in psychology to figure out why that's not going to work out for you. As always, take my comment as constructive criticism, but criticism nonetheless. Respectfully: Yours Truly

          • Cyril
          • 6 years ago

          Sure, you can take some adjectives out of context and pretend that this is all crazy, sensationalistic rambling.

          Or you can look at all the factual groundwork laid in the first half of the post, all the qualifiers used (“may,” “could,” “in a worst-case scenario”), and the paragraph where I discussed the potential upsides of SteamOS and Mantle to counterbalance the potential downsides. And then you can remember that this is all coming from someone with close to eight years of experience covering this industry.

          And then, perhaps, you can allow for the possibility that this is an informed speculation piece (a rather tame one, at that) tucked under a spicy headline—and that, no, it’s not unreasonable to expect temperance in the ensuing discussion.

            • Meadows
            • 6 years ago

            The “potential upsides” span 1 paragraph out of 10.

            • kc77
            • 6 years ago

            Usually when people can’t give a definitive answer they try to not use “spicy headlines”. In fact most people try to deliver uncertainty in the most benign way possible.

            When i use qualifiers like: may, could, and in a worst-case scenario (especially the word: should) what I’m telling my boss is, “I have no idea what the outcome is and because you’ve asked me this question and expect a response I’m going to use a word that gives me an exit if the project goes to hell in a hand basket.” If the project costs a lot then uncertainty is last thing you want to deliver.

            Admittedly the use of such qualifiers within blog posts usually don’t evoke situations that Jack Bauer must defuse. But that’s definitely not a way to lay down a factual groundwork. Instead of an editorial or an opinion piece found within the Washington Post, you’ve given us a tabloid with a picture of the Elephant Man’s Bones screwing Elizabeth Taylor with a title that reads, “Will the Elephant Man Ruin Your Favorite Perfume?”

            Granted that visual will make you stop on your way to the check out aisle. But it’s not really heightening the level of discourse.

            Having said all of that, it really depends on how serious you take what you wrote and the responses generated by it. If it doesn’t bother you crack open a good Belgian and pop some popcorn. It’s just easier that way. 🙂

            • ssidbroadcast
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<] And then you can remember that this is all coming from someone with close to eight years of experience covering this industry.[/quote<] Calm down, Cyril. It's just Meadows. [i<]Meadows[/i<]. No need to throw your weight around. Also, if I have your attention, care to comment on my speculation that Mantle games [i<]won't[/i<] be appearing on Steam/Steam OS? Agree? Disagree?

            • destroy.all.monsters
            • 6 years ago

            I don’t know – I’m kind of enjoying being part of Team Meadows for once. The snazzy satin jacket that comes with it is especially nice.

            • Meadows
            • 6 years ago

            “Team Meadows”? Let’s make a meme then.

            • destroy.all.monsters
            • 6 years ago

            You mean like “Meadows has a posse”? It’s definitely gotta be some kind of dazzling youtube video involving dancing.

            Also some scathing criticism and amusing snarkiness in there somewhere.

            Can you rap? 🙂

            • Pwnstar
            • 6 years ago

            What? Meadows is female?

            • Meadows
            • 6 years ago

            Not to my knowledge.

            • entropy13
            • 6 years ago

            And now you know, and knowing is half the Meadows!

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 6 years ago

            and also the scent of my dryer sheet fabric softener.

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            Team Meadow’s Muffins.

        • Bauxite
        • 6 years ago

        Microsoft played a big part in PC gaming in the past, but by now they have changed into an obvious cancer.

        What did you expect when you pretty much Troll Reported©®™ on an effort to remove that cancer from the equation: People might be able to play mainstream/top tier games on a (presumably) polished version of linux with full featured drivers. (or roll their own)

        This could ruin PC gaming, seriously? How can you say that with a straight face?

        People have been begging to get off the yoke of windows without the only other option being tied down to console limitations for 5 years at a time, and that camp recently got a lot more crowded.

        Windows runs on PCs, a PC does not have to run windows, especially not the tripe they have been pushing lately. They don’t give a damn about vast segments users anymore, and don’t mind bulldozing us under their “vision” of unifying everything with a half arsed “touch” interface.
        Boot up server 2012 on a rackmount server for a real mind ****.

          • Cyril
          • 6 years ago

          [quote<] Microsoft played a big part in PC gaming in the past, but by now they have changed into an obvious cancer. What did you expect when you pretty much Troll Reported©®™ on an effort to remove that cancer from the equation: People might be able to play mainstream/top tier games on a (presumably) polished version of linux with full featured drivers. (or roll their own) This could ruin PC gaming, seriously? How can you say that with a straight face? [/quote<] If you give my blog post a closer read, you'll see two things: 1) A statement that largely echoes your grievances with Windows and your enthusiasm for SteamOS. ("Microsoft's custodianship of the platform has been marred by stagnation and split loyalties, and Valve could do a far better job, especially in the living room.") 2) An explanation of why, even if SteamOS is better than Windows, its existence could damage the platform. ("I wouldn't be surprised to see [SteamOS] become so successful that games must be ported to it, yet not successful enough to dislodge Windows completely. If that happens, then developers will have no choice but to support both Windows and Valve's operating system. . . . Given the funding and time restrictions game studios often grapple with, we may see longer delays between console and PC releases as a result—not to mention lower-quality ports.")

        • Chrispy_
        • 6 years ago

        I for one approve of conjecture, speculation and thought-provoking topics. Asking questions leads to progress, if not answers.

        People that have issues with opinion pieces need to take a good look at themselves and try to figure out where their lives went wrong.

      • WillBach
      • 6 years ago

      I think Cyril wanted a sounding board for the readers, and judging from the number of comments (including my own) the TR readers wanted to state their opinions, too. Troll articles exist and make Internet news worse, but this isn’t one of them. It’s true that, partly because of the headline, this bears some outward similarity to clickbait. But however important it is to avoid the even the appearance of bias or trolling in reporting Cyril should still be able to write about what he’s thinking. Time spent working is precious – we can’t expect all our favorite writers to waste it all self-censoring.

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      Adding a 3rd completely different API is BAD for gaming.

      as a analogy : how many games on WINDOWS support both ogl and d3d in windows/on windows only. the is a reason people do NOT build dual platform rendering engines (d3d/ogl). it is cost… and it is fragmentation.

      a 3rd api while interesting is academic at best. it is a third api that studios now have to code for on the pc platform and it is a terrible idea.

      this is glide.. all over again.

        • Meadows
        • 6 years ago

        You meant to reply to someone else.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      +5 Cyril – Yeah, the piece was a bit wanky, but it has also generated more lengthy and thoughtful posts (Meadow’s Muffin has his head up his butt on this) than any other topic I’ve seen.

      I like these kind of threads, they provoke new realizations as I try to think through/articulate answers to points raised and I end up with a better understanding of the topic.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      “You didn’t just open a can of worms here. You conjured a can of worms. Out of thin air. On a worm-free skiing resort.”

      That analogy sucks intensely

      Yeah, that works.

    • bittermann
    • 6 years ago

    This article is just click bait…I thought TR was better than this.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      318 and counting. Can’t argue with success.

        • bittermann
        • 6 years ago

        Yes, that’s what click bait does…short term page hits and worthless dribble at the expense of some credibility. Good job.

    • sschaem
    • 6 years ago

    How do any of you know for certainty that Mantle on nvidia HW will be slower then directx?

    From the data we have, it wont be any harder for nvidia to implement mantle then a full fledged Direct3D11 driver… nvidia already support HLSL,, direct3d core for executing shaders (fragment/vertex/geometry/compute).

    Anyone thinking Mantle will be slower then Direct3D is delusional.

      • chuckula
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]Anyone thinking Mantle will be slower then Direct3D is delusional.[/quote<] Correction: Anyone thinking Mantle will be slower than Direct3D [b<]on AMD hardware[/b<] is delusional. I agree that Mantle freakin' better be faster on the exact same piece of silicon compared to AMD's Direct3D driver. I'm not so certain about.. oh... Nvidia's Direct3D driver or... the big elephant in the corner of the room... Nvidia's OpenGL driver vs. Mantle. You'll notice that AMD went out of its way to pretend that OpenGL didn't exist during the big Mantle launch extravaganza... trust me, there are plenty of OpenGL devs out there that would look at AMD's comparisons of Mantle to Direct3D and say: Yeah, we already knew that, why did you need Mantle to pull off a performance improvement when we've already done it?

        • Fighterpilot
        • 6 years ago

        What a load of rubbish.
        There are no other low level APIs for GCN hardware outside of AMD HQ,Mantle is the access doorway to that for GCN programmers.
        So who are these uninformed,”OpenGL devs” you speak of…..they do exist in real life right?
        Stop trying to pretend you know anymore about it than any other of the thousands of tech enthusiasts who are following it.

          • chuckula
          • 6 years ago

          [quote<]What a load of rubbish.[/quote<] So you disagree with my statement that Mantle on AMD GPUs is faster than Direct3D? What are you, some kind of paid Nvidia shill?

    • kamikaziechameleon
    • 6 years ago

    We need DirectX and Open GL to play nicer together for the future.

    If mantel does that in some way, cool. If it doesn’t it will fall by the way side. How does optimizing for GPU’s that have horrible driver management make it so that AMD competes with nvidia. It rather looks like they are trying to get their partners to do their job since they are so incompetent.

    I’m extremely excited for Steam OS. I’ve increasingly hopped to bring my pc experience into my living room. I played through the entirety of witcher 2 on my 60″ 1080p plasma with 7.1 surround and it was so much more premium than any other gaming experience that year. Heck just the steam controller gets me pumped.

    At any rate I trust valve to work most of these things out. I expect AMD’s new partner thing to fizzle in 6-12 months and I wonder what role Nvidia will play.

      • sschaem
      • 6 years ago

      At this point DirectX is done for.. In the future its all OpenGL. and possibly Mantle.

      I wouldn’t be surprised is AMD even offer Mantle ready mobile core for AMR SoC licensing sooner then later.

      Directx is just to limited as its available only on a tiny, tiny fraction of the existing gaming platforms.

      BTW, AMD mobile x86 SoC might be the biggest beneficiary from Mantle…

      • jihadjoe
      • 6 years ago

      I look forward to the arrival of our DirectOpenXGL overlords!

    • destroy.all.monsters
    • 6 years ago

    The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

    Good grief. Mantle just means better console ports. SteamOS just means Valve trying to protect its own interests as well as that of the overall PC gaming market.

    I don’t recall a lot of these kinds of stories when MS created the all-singing all-dancing animated lego bricks – or when MS stopped focusing on the PC platform as anything but an attempt at a money train through the deplorable GFWL, and their neglect in order to prop up the Xbox.

    The only “enemy” of PC gaming is – Microsoft.

    • deinabog
    • 6 years ago

    Valve and AMD ruin PC gaming? No. Consoles? That’s another story. At present I don’t think the SteamOS and Steam Boxes will shake up the living room too much; they’ll just complement what’s already there. Going forward, Valve’s platform might wean game players off consoles ultimately and onto PCs. Mantle will AMD hardware a nice boost for games that are optimized for it (as Glide did for 3dfx’s Voodoo graphics-based hardware) but that’s about it.

    In other words, this is nice headline to get people talking but like some tech announcements in the past it won’t change things radically or usher in a new age of awesome.

    • Krogoth
    • 6 years ago

    So many delicious tears over nothing.

    Steambox is just another gaming console, despite what Valve is trying to spin. They want a piece of the console market. They already saturated most of the PC gaming market and want to expand beyond it.

    Mantle is another me-too proprietary API standard that will meet the same fate as its predecessors (GLIDE, PhysX, MeTAL etc). Outside of endorsed titles, they will never see widespread adoption.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      Steam OS specific purpose is to create a viable open alternative to WIndows.

      Mantle already has widespread adoption.

        • Krogoth
        • 6 years ago

        It is a proprietary API and frankly, AMD doesn’t the marketshare and mindshare to make the industry go for it. It is doomed from the start.

        Nvidia threw far more marketing muscle into PhysX and enjoyed far more marketshare. Yet, PhysX “failed” and it is only utilized in a handful of endorsed titles.

        The marketing at AMD are deluded to think that their recent console contracts (Xbox One and PS4) will help.

          • MFergus
          • 6 years ago

          It’s definitely doomed if they have to throw $8 million at every big name game to get it to support Mantle like BF4 but who knows if that will be the case.

      • tanker27
      • 6 years ago

      Ahhh GLIDE, I remember that, I think Shogo used it back in the day.

    • torquer
    • 6 years ago

    1. Valve can’t ruin PC gaming. SteamOS/SteamBox is great for the types of comparatively impulse-play games one would otherwise play on an iPad or Android tablet. The only serious gaming that will be done is that accomplished through streaming, still requiring a PC with Windows, a dedicated GPU, and PC games. Linux will never be a serious gaming platform just as it will never be a serious competitor to Windows as a consumer desktop OS. Sorry, fanboys.

    2. Mantle is irrelevant. Even now the newest consoles are going to be released about half to a full generation behind PCs. Optimizing what will in the end be PC ports of console games won’t make a bit of difference in a year. So instead of your Nvidia GPU running a late 2014 console port game at 60 fps, the AMD and Mantle optimized equivalent will do it at 75 fps. Whoopdee doo.

    The only value of this to anyone is fanboy fodder. The sweet sweet irony is that all of the same guys who got all foamy-mouthed at Nvidia over CUDA and PhysX for being “closed” and “proprietary” will be singing the praises of AMD for doing the exact same kind of stuff.

    God bless the Internet.

      • torquer
      • 6 years ago

      I’d hate to reply to my own comment in an act of shameless self promotion, but it looks like per the most recent article, Mantle won’t even work on the Xbone. I’m sure developers are going to be all about developing AAA titles for the following “platforms:”

      Xbone (non-Mantle)
      PS4 (possibly Mantle, definitely different than Xbone)
      PC (Mantle)
      PC (Non-Mantle)
      Wii U (for the dozens of owners of one)
      Xbox 360 (for the next year or so)
      PS3 (for the next year or so)

      Even suboptimal industry standards like DirectX are infinitely better than a half dozen competing and incompatible proprietary formats. Won’t we ever learn?

    • BoBzeBuilder
    • 6 years ago

    Forget the blog. The comments are a lot more amusing. So much butthurt.

    • Laykun
    • 6 years ago

    I understand that this article is purely speculation but having said that it should probably also discuss the alternative possibilities.

    Given that very little is actually known about Mantle we can’t actually tell where and by how much this will improve performance. OpenGL and Direct X, despite the rep they get, are already highly optimised on PCs and perform very well. Given this, unless you’ve got millions to spend on very talented Mantle devs, it’s highly possible that using Mantle can be highly detrimental to the performance of the game (very easy to do) compared to using OpenGL or DX.

    I remember hearing a number being thrown around of about a 10% performance increase on desktop GPUs. When it comes to businesses, the time and money required to re-write a whole graphics pipeline for 10% seems like a stupid decision and that’s why I get the feeling AMD has to PAY developers to use mantle. Is 10%, if true, even a significant margin to sway buyers to get AMD hardware?

    We also don’t know how hard it is to develop for mantle. Sure it might give you close to the metal performance but will the complexity of the language, the hassle of having to do most of the basic things yourself and the initial client-server setup might cause developers to simply not adopt the platform altogether. Your comment about less bugs may even be the exact opposite if the language is significantly complex, it may introduce more bugs simply because every developer has to account for many more variables then they really ever had to in the past. This is WHY OpenGL and DX exist in the first place, because not all us devs are John Carmacks, and if we are we’re probably off doing research rather than making computer games.

    Time will tell however, and personally I think it’s far too early even to speculate on these things because it really can go either way. If I’m missing any facts though please help me out.

    • chuckula
    • 6 years ago

    With props to MFergus for pointing it out first:

    [quote<]@Thracks is MANTLE open source ?[/quote<] [quote<]Robert Hallock ‏@Thracks 28 Sep @GnrlKhalid No. It is an API for the industry-standard*** GCN Architecture and its specific ISA, done at the request of game developers.[/quote<] [url<]https://twitter.com/Thracks[/url<] Robert Hallock's official job title is "PR Lead, Gaming & Enthusiast Graphics at AMD". Here's his LinkedIn page to view his AMD street cred: [url<]http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rthallock[/url<] Hey Ratchet/Bensam123/FighterPilot/Jimbo75/Spizone/etc.: Stop saying that AMD's official statements are wrong. Only Nvidia fanboys are supposed to do that. *** Industry standard? Well, at least AMD's marketing guys can't be accused of lacking a sense of humor.

      • Fighterpilot
      • 6 years ago

      WTF are you on about chuckster…you have zero credibility here anyway apart from being an nvidia cheer leading schmuck.

      And I quote:”Note also that Mantle is completely useless with even AMD’s best GPUs from the by-gone era of 2011, which mantle completely ignores. I can think of a certain group of fanboys in this site who would call for public executions if Intel decided to obsolete two year old hardware in the same way that AMD has just done….

      Your post above was a whine about how non GCN cards won’t benefit from Mantle.
      No!…You don’t say?

      Could that be because it was designed for GCN architecture?….sorry if that is such a stretch for you to comprehend.

        • Meadows
        • 6 years ago

        Chuckula’s point: Mantle is not open. In any way.

        • Klimax
        • 6 years ago

        I suggest to reread original post including quotes. You attacked strawman. (logical fallacy)

    • haroldfi
    • 6 years ago

    Are Valve and AMD about to ruin PC gaming? NO, absolutely.
    “When the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One were announced earlier this year, I saw it as a victory for the PC.” Playstation 4 and Xbox One have AMD hardware… do you remember? 🙂 so why a victory if AMD should ruin PC gaming? Make peace with yourself. That’s a logical move by AMD in its market position about next-gen consoles. And good developers have just to thank if Mantle really works as expected and advertised.
    Direct3D is good and bad at the same time, really bad if you want to pull the best from the hardware… many developers complain about DirectX, you know?

    • chuckula
    • 6 years ago

    I’d take Ratchet more seriously if he would make an intellectually honest statement that it would be perfectly OK for Nvidia (or even Intel) to come out with an “open” API that is developed behind closed doors after multi-million dollar..uh.. “investments” with several large video game developers and that does not even attempt to be cross-platform compatible with any other vendors’* GPUs.

    I can take an honest fanboy. I don’t like shills and hypocrites.

    * Note also that Mantle is completely useless with even AMD’s best GPUs from the by-gone era of 2011, which mantle completely ignores. I can think of a certain group of fanboys in this site who would call for public executions if Intel decided to obsolete two year old hardware in the same way that AMD has just done….

      • Fighterpilot
      • 6 years ago

      Mantle is designed to allow access to GCN architecture.
      Just as diesel doesn’t work in petrol engines…hardly “ignoring” now is it?
      As for complaining about “fanboys”…coming from you that’s a bit rich…..

        • chuckula
        • 6 years ago

        [quote<]Mantle is designed to allow access to GCN architecture.[/quote<] Fascinating, so your ad hominem attack begins with a direct acknowledgment that my original post is accurate, and then the rest is a bunch of unrelated drivel. Thanks for agreeing with me.

        • peartart
        • 6 years ago

        They chose to make it way. Mantle didn’t appear by magic.

      • kc77
      • 6 years ago

      I would say Rachet’s viewpoint is no less technical than any other.

      In this entire saga has anyone released any proof whatsoever that Mantle will damage gaming? Do we have at least a game to test this theory?

      You could probably point to the BF4 beta but from what I’ve seen Nvidia is performing just as well if not better. Likewise all previews of the game seem to load on Intel CPU’s just fine. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Intel still outperformed AMD here.

      However, maybe the signs are more subtle. Do we have screenshots or still frames of AMD and Lucifer lurking in the background nefariously turning off AA in any game that we might play today? If not, has anyone tried using a high speed camera? I hear that works. How about benchmarks? Obviously there must be a benchmark on the Internet somewhere that will alert us to the ending of gaming as we know it.

      Has anyone checked FCAT yet? Surely if there is any “open” tool out there that will alert all of us of the great change in the way we “game” that tool would be it. Wouldn’t it?

      However, you might be onto something here. Even though no one has posted a single game review or benchmark out there to warn us of the end times, I’ve decided to give away my GTX 780 that I just purchased and my i7 920 system as well. Why keep it now that AMD has globally prevented software developers from making their games run on Nvidia and Intel hardware (that powers 62% and 84.8% of the desktop market)? Obviously they don’t want to make money. Fools all of them.

      Then again getting all worked up without any verifiable evidence could be just as bad. It’s a good thing we have you here Chuck. You have made one hell of an intellectually honest post here full of charts and graphs to back up your statements. There’s one problem though. Mine aren’t loading. Can anyone else see them?

        • chuckula
        • 6 years ago

        What’s technical about Ratchet’s post? He says that Mantle is an OPEN API, but there’s no evidence of that other than a vague “sure we’ll ‘open’ it up… in 2015… maybe!” from an AMD marketing guy who doesn’t know the first thing about software development.

        The entire remainder of his post is a failed attempt to make us believe that TWIMTBP == Mantle (while conveniently pretending that AMD’s own “Gaming Evolved” program doesn’t exist…)

        Here’s how anyone, including Ratchet, FigherPilot, Bensam123, and all the others on this site can prove that Mantle is truly “open”:
        Post the Mantle code to, I dunno, render a triangle on a screen with a single point light source illumination and a pixel shader (or whatever Mantle equivalent exists) for a nice color gradient across the triangle. Include any setup code required for a graphics context and a basic viewport so we can look at it in a little window. I’m making it easy by not even requiring pre-rasterization shaders or any complex geometry transforms.

        This is the same thing as a basic OpenGL or Direct 3D 101 homework assignment for a newbie to learn how to put up a simple triangle on a screen. Please, do tell me the website where the fully documented Mantle API explains exactly how to do this…. yeah, didn’t think so.

          • kc77
          • 6 years ago

          I’m assuming you completely missed the point on purpose.

    • David
    • 6 years ago

    PC gaming is already daunting to new comers! That’s why it’s “dead” and consoles are king.

    Before you start, I’m a PC gamer first, so shut up with the fanboy crap.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      Practicing for the air pugilist contest?

    • tviceman
    • 6 years ago

    The problem with Mantle, IMO, is that AMD is in the minority in both GPU market share and CPU market share. It will be hard to convince developers to optimize games on PC for a minority of users. Furthermore, even though AMD’s Hawaii chip is about to catch up with Nvidia in graphics performance, no one knows what 20nm will bring and if Nvidia has significantly more powerful hardware and more sales overall for most of the cycle (like they did with this gen), that is yet another reason developers won’t be so anxious to code games with Mantle. Why would developers want to leverage slower hardware that has a minority of users?

    Even in a situation where AMD has equal GPU’s next gen, Nvidia and Intel will not sit idle and “allow” AMD to steamroll them. Intel (and also Nvidia) have way more cash on hand, way more marketing resources, and way more dedicated engineers to simply sit on the sidelines and cry. Therefore I highly doubt Mantle will ever gain widespread adoption.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      Wasn’t hard to convince EA, who are wildly enthusiastic about Mantle, and AMD, in a clarification comment said flat they were developing Mantle in collaboration with several additional partners.

      Your argument runs into a cement wall of contradictory verified facts.

        • Meadows
        • 6 years ago

        Of course, EA would grasp at anything that could re-establish them as a preferable brand (if they were ever one).

          • spigzone
          • 6 years ago

          A resurrected Oral Roberts couldn’t save that argument.

            • Meadows
            • 6 years ago

            Don’t worry about it, I have nothing to prove to you. You foam at the mouth.

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            Put down the hand mirror and slowly back away … …

        • sschaem
        • 6 years ago

        Its most likely Dice that convinced AMD to go for it.

        Microsoft never budged on their stance. But now that AMD control ‘100%’ of the console and about 30% of the PC gaming market, AMD got the power to move the industry forward on their own.. without having to be a slave of Microsoft poor management.

        The platform that will most likely not get Mantle is OSX… Thats the biggest unknown.

      • sschaem
      • 6 years ago

      What beats a $180 3GB 7950 ? or a $260 7970 ?

      You need to spend well over $600 for nvidia to start to have better cards.

      Most will get Mantle access for free from using Dice Crytek, Epic, Unity, etc.. engines

      Take the blinders off.

      • ish718
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<] AMD is in the minority in both GPU market share [/quote<] I am not too sure about that, AMD's GPU market share has been on the rise since HD 3000 series and factor in the rise of APUs.

    • yammerpickle2
    • 6 years ago

    M$ has been holding PC gaming back for years trying to keep Xbox up. So if Valve can make a better and free operating system I’m all for it. Windows is also trying to go the app store route and close off the operating system for M$. I want the freedom to install what I want without having M$ gate keeping the OS and collecting tolls.
    I also appreciate AMD and Mantle and I hope the API is fast and easy. Direct X has been crawling along for almost a decade since M$ has no reason to make the PC faster, or better looking than their Xbox. Hopefully with Ballmer out of the way, and these new challenges M$ will get off their rear ends and come up with real improvements in their next OS and Direct X API.
    Sure this will fragment the market initially, but eventually the market will vote on what they like with their dollars, and smart developers will follow those dollar and make it the future.
    Also let’s not forget that 4K is going to start become more common and tech that worked for 1080 is going to have to step up and push out pixel at four times the rate to keep up. I suspect there will be a commercial VR headset in about two years. VR headsets need low latency between frames. Based on what I’ve seen Direct X is not up to the challenges even if you spend three grand on triple SLI Titans.

    • spigzone
    • 6 years ago

    Another aspect of Mantle.

    While the initial games will tend to have roughly equal graphics in the second wave first party games will start pulling ahead with superior graphics. This dilutes the potential impact of multi-platform developers games and leaves both console camps dissatisfied with their graphics. If the multi-platform developers could economically match the first party graphics on the respective consoles, even if there was a quality disparity between the console versions of their games, as long as they matched the best that was available on that console, gamers would stay very happy campers.

    From what I understand so far Mantle will provide a path for multi-platform developers to economically maintain parity, or near parity, with first party dev graphics, and push those optimizations to their PC versions.

    EA was almost ridiculously enthusiastic about Mantle. Stand to reason there must be a reason for such enthusiasm. I suspect APU13 will send further and bigger shockwaves through the gaming industry and community.

      • HisDivineOrder
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]EA was ridiculously enthusiastic about Mantle. There is a reason for such enthusiasm.[/quote<] In fact, there are eight million reasons for them to be enthusiastic about anything AMD tells them to be enthusiastic about.

        • spigzone
        • 6 years ago

        $8 million is what, 30% of EA’s annual revenue? … you may have something there

          • sschaem
          • 6 years ago

          8 million is 30% of 1.4 billion ???

          Its also more likely then not that EA sold those BF4 license at a big discount. So they could have gotten more money without in the end without the AMD deal, and this deal for sure lower their margin.

          Dive dev team being so gun ho about it (along with the gaming industry) is about Mantle itself.
          Not a 8 million deal to buy some BF4 license for bundle deal…

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            A bit of absurdity to illustrate the ridiculousness of HisDivinOrder’s contention EA is wildly enthusiastic about Mantle only because of the $8M.

        • sschaem
        • 6 years ago

        8 million to buy BF3 licenses.

        And its Dice and countless developers that begged on their knees MS for years for something like Mantle.

          • spigzone
          • 6 years ago

          So true.

    • Melanine
    • 6 years ago

    Really much ado about nothing.. But it is clear where the author’s money is deposited.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      Nvidia Savings and Loan?

    • Grape Flavor
    • 6 years ago

    Ugh…these comments… Where are all of these unbelievable raving fanboys and delusional imbeciles coming from? They’ve completely taken over Tech Report. The community I used to come here for no longer exists.

    I think I’m done with Tech Report for a while. Sorry Scott, Cyril, Geoff, and the gang, you guys are still great, but I just can’t take this anymore.

      • Melanine
      • 6 years ago

      It looks like someone (not you) has an ax to grind. I think that is why the gangs are showing up.

      • Chrispy_
      • 6 years ago

      I’m pretty sure these “raving fanboys” you’re talking about are hoax accounts here to do some serious turfing.

      I notice a lot of new names in this thread, some of the names belong to accounts that no longer exist, and others were all registered specifically as a result of this blog (like, within 24h). Whether they’re genuine users prompted into registering to share an opinion or not is the question, but outside the scope of this blog, the internet is becoming a web of lies more than ever before; With companies giiving themselves fake “customer reviews”, registering fake accounts en-masse to leave negative comments about their competitors everywhere, it’s hard to treat new forum/community/twitter members without at least a large dose of scepticism.

      I checked in a mirror that I wasn’t wearing a tin-foil hat, because that’s what it felt like writing that last paragraph – but then I remembered that this is about Nvidia’s interests (for the most part) and Jen-Hsun Huang has shown he has two decades of experience in anticompetitive ‘playing dirty’.

    • sschaem
    • 6 years ago

    Interesting… A Troll Article.. on TR. I guess things are changing indeed.

      • jihadjoe
      • 6 years ago

      Next up, booth babe galleries!

        • Kurkotain
        • 6 years ago

        sign me up

    • spigzone
    • 6 years ago

    Extraordinary number of Really Long Posts on this topic.

    • MadManOriginal
    • 6 years ago

    Here’s why Mantle is bad: if it becomes widespread and really has a meaningful benefit, it means gamers looking for the best performance will have to put up with shit AMD drivers.

      • kc77
      • 6 years ago

      How exactly are they going to receive the best performance with ***** drivers?

        • jihadjoe
        • 6 years ago

        I know, man.
        It really sucks when they censor your drivers.

      • Meadows
      • 6 years ago

      +1

      • ermo
      • 6 years ago

      Um … if more peoply buy AMD products, it stands to reason that AMD will earn more money.

      If AMD earns more money, it stands to reason that they will spend at least some of it on hiring talent to improve the virtuous circle and create better products (where ‘product’ is the combination of software and hardware).

      Or maybe I’m just being naïve.

      • HisDivineOrder
      • 6 years ago

      Actually, this is a way for AMD to bypass their driver problems. Mantle enables the developer to take on much of the headache of managing the graphical subsystems in a far more aggressive way than is currently possible with the high level API’s. Drivers take on more of a burden in a programmable GPU’s life when you’re having to keep everything compatible with a high level API for translation purposes. In a low level API scenario, more of that burden is put on the developers.

      Talented developers will make very specific hardware configurations fly. Poor developers might crash your whole system. Just like in the “glory days” of Glide.

        • nanoflower
        • 6 years ago

        So you’ll basically boot into the game and stay there until you are ready to quit? No tabbing out since that requires working with DX.

    • kc77
    • 6 years ago

    Ruining gaming? Hardly.

    Valve’s work on gaming on the Linux platform is probably the one of the best things that has happened to gaming in a long time. I never played HL2, Portal, TF2, or Left 4 Dead 2 until they were released on Steam for Linux. I play Dota2 everyday when I wouldn’t have bothered before. I even updated my video card. Granted a 780 playing HL2 on Linux is kind of absurd. But I just like knowing that I won’t have to worry about performance for a very long time.

    Furthermore it doesn’t complicate things. It has the potential to nudge developers ever closer to using open standards for development. This benefits Mac users, Linux users, and doesn’t hurt Windows users at all. Since Windows has 90% of the desktop PC marketshare, I think it’s safe to say that games will still be developed, and released on that platform. OpenGL games will run just fine (provided that they are tested and not rushed out the door…*cough* [i<]Rage[/i<] *cough*). As for AMD, I find Mantle potentially beneficial not just because of GPU performance improvements (which don't affect me), but also the improvements in CPU performance. Specifically actually having a game run on more than one processor core. That is going to eventually benefit everyone regardless if they have an Intel or AMD CPU. I don't know if it was lack of sleep, but the article just seems overly bombastic. For example: [quote<]And PC titans like [b<]AMD[/b<] and Valve would only have themselves to blame.[/quote<] Now you could call the current state of AMD many things, but a PC titan isn't one of them (I really can't stop laughing every time I read that). Maybe when the Athlon (Thunderbird) and DP Durons were the thing (before the Core2Duo?). But today?? Hardly.

    • jensend
    • 6 years ago

    All you need to know about this article: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines<]Betteridge's Law of Headlines[/url<].

      • Meadows
      • 6 years ago

      Ooo. That’s fun.

      • Bauxite
      • 6 years ago

      The author of said law admits that while generally true there are exceptions, as an example:

      Is TR’s credibility and neutrality slipping?

        • LukeCWM
        • 6 years ago

        I misread this. May I please take back my negative vote and replace it with a positive?

          • NeelyCam
          • 6 years ago

          No.

      • Jigar
      • 6 years ago

      Bump.

      • Antimatter
      • 6 years ago

      Betteridge: The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably buIIsh*t, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it.

      LOL

    • WaltC
    • 6 years ago

    Making mountains out of molehills…a couple of things follow to ease your fevered mind…;)

    1) Mantle will be 100% compatible with both D3d and OpenGL. You can take that to the bank. D3d and OpenGL are high-level API’s; Mantle is a low-level hardware API built to address the strengths of AMD hardware, in both the consoles and in AMD’s x86 cpu and discrete gpu lines–and even probably in their APU lines of GPU/CPU’s. In the case of developer support for Intel and nVIdia, most likely, Mantle will simply be bypassed as Mantle compliance does not affect D3d and/or OpenGL game compatibility. Or, nVidia and Intel may want to get in on the Mantle bandwagon. Or not. It depends on whether they get any advantage out of it. But in no wise does the presence of Mantle mean that Intel & nVidia are being shown the exit…that’s ridiculous…;) OpenGL and D3d still very much rule the roost.

    2) Mantle is designed chiefly with developers in mind, to make developing their D3d/OpenGL games easier on the consoles and AMD-based x86 Windows PCs–because all of that is now AMD hardware based. That’s *why* Mantle makes so much sense for developers at present–AMD hardware is in a commanding market position. Mantle therefore makes things easier for developers all around. It would be useless to developers if using Mantle meant you had to say bye-bye to nVidia and Intel hardware support, and construct a whole new code base for non-Mantle gaming, and Mantle would go nowhere fast as it would be far more trouble than it might be worth….;)

    3) Steam, ah, Steam. How is it that you don’t understand that Steam OS and SteamBox or Steam Machine or whatever are not *new* in anything but the most superficial of senses? SteamBox: x86, Windows-compatible machines. OEM-bought or self-built from off-the-shelf components. Period. SteamOS: Ubuntu 12.03+ with some kind of Valve front end tacked on–Valve’s current lineup of Linux games already run on SteamOS which is exactly how we know this. Nothing new in a fundamental sense here at all. I mean, Valve has already said all of this in so many words in its FAQs and Q&A’s. It’s not Valve’s fault if people don’t recognize MARKETING and NEW PR INITIATIVES when they see them, is it?

    Alright, Cyril…you were saying that suddenly you are feeling much better now?…;)

    *(As an aside, this is a prime example of why it’s important to understand the substance of what you’re buying as opposed to just its shape and color and other superficialities that are full of sound and fury but signify little if anything of importance. Sometimes [i<]marketing[/i<] makes it seem like everything in the whole world is changing, when the reality is that aside from the things that are really and obviously changing to [i<]some degree[/i<], most [i<]everything else[/i<] is just business as usual!) Edit: Typos

      • HisDivineOrder
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]Mantle is designed chiefly with developers in mind, [b<]to make developing their D3d/OpenGL games easier on the consoles and AMD-based x86 Windows PCs[/b<]--because all of that is now AMD hardware based. That's *why* Mantle makes so much sense for developers at present--AMD hardware is in a commanding market position. Mantle therefore makes things easier for developers all around.[/quote<] Unfortunately, this is untrue. Mantle is a low level API that replaces DirectX/OpenGL. It is not a better way of doing DX/OpenGL. It is an alternate API. If it were simply a better way of doing D3d/OpenGL, Mantle wouldn't be doing what AMD is promising it's doing. It's a low level API, which by definition means it's bypassing the high level API to allow the "bare metal" access. Perhaps you should read up on Mantle a bit more. Your misunderstanding of the situation is causing you to spread misinformation. [quote<]It would be useless to developers if using Mantle meant you had to say bye-bye to nVidia and Intel hardware support, and construct a whole new code base for non-Mantle gaming, and Mantle would go nowhere fast as it would be far more trouble than it might be worth....;)[/quote<] I agree. Because what you said you thought wasn't true is in fact the reality for anything using ONLY Mantle, games supporting DirectX/OpenGL will continue to be true. Yes, they will have to construct two codebases--one for Mantle and one for DX/OpenGL--so I agree it will "go nowhere fast as it [will] be far more trouble than it might be worth....;)".

        • WiseInvestor
        • 6 years ago

        HisDivineOrder:
        “Mantle is a low level API that replaces DirectX/OpenGL. [b<]It is not a better way of doing DX/OpenGL.[/b<]" Care to back it up with links? Facts and Developer testimonial? You can't can you?

          • Airmantharp
          • 6 years ago

          Actually, we don’t know whether it is better or not- it’s still just marketing hype, at this point.

          So no- he can’t back it up, because it doesn’t actually exist as far as the consumer is concerned!

          So please, take your antagonistic attitude elsewhere. No one can back up anything, and silly debate tricks will not help your position.

    • Amazing Mr. X
    • 6 years ago

    [i<]"Are Valve and AMD about to ruin PC gaming?" "Will SteamOS complicate things by virtue of its existence?" "Will Mantle encourage developers to prioritize AMD hardware at the expense of Nvidia GPUs?" "Will all this fragmentation damage the platform beyond repair?" "Tune in next year to find out! [b<]SAME TECH TIME, SAME TECH CHANNEL![/b<]"[/i<] In all seriousness though, this was all rather silly. None of these things are real innovations. Valve is just trying to popularize Linux, and AMD is feature matching the ancient [url=https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi<]NVAPI[/url<]. Thinking that these sorts of things will cause the PC Gaming Apocalypse is entering tinfoil hat territory. That's especially true in the face of a unified x86-64 based future, where porting is a much shorter and more painless experience than it ever has been in the past. No offense, but there's a [i<]reason[/i<] everyone else is excited.

      • Melanine
      • 6 years ago

      Thank god for the voice of reason. I thought I was in Alice’s wonderland.

        • spigzone
        • 6 years ago

        It’s not the voice of reason, it’s the voice of cluelessness.

        Soporific generalizations in the world of very fast moving and emerging cutting edge technologies are nonsensical.

      • Deanjo
      • 6 years ago

      NVAPI, isn’t even really close to being in the same league (or even in functions opened up) of Mantle.

        • chuckula
        • 6 years ago

        The other thing about NVAPI is that its mere existence hasn’t led to huge hype-conferences (99.999% of AMD fanboys didn’t know it existed when Mantle was announced and most of them still don’t) and multi-million dollar non-public deals with game developers. There isn’t a single gaming title out there that uses NVAPI, because that’s not the purpose of NVAPI.

          • Amazing Mr. X
          • 6 years ago

          NVAPI was used in Battlefield 3 and is being used in Battlefield 4. It may not be hyped, discussed, or even interesting, but NVAPI still a low level API that existed way before Mantle. AMD may be doing it better here, but they aren’t first.

      • Laykun
      • 6 years ago

      Except NVAPI doesn’t expose a low level graphics language AFAIK. From the link you provided NVAPI provides access to nvidia driver settings, which wouldn’t be accessible With DX and OpenGL (it’s outside the score of graphics languages), which is something completely different altogether.

      • Freon
      • 6 years ago

      Yeah I can’t take the article as much more than a well-spoken, long-winded internet troll.

    • boing
    • 6 years ago

    I don’t mind this at all. The only reason I still use Windows on my stationary computer is a fading dream that I’ll get time in the future to finish the Mass Effect 2 game I started three years ago and move on to playing the last game in the series… Otherwise it’s all Linux Mint or Lubuntu on my laptop and at work.

    I’ve recommended a handful of non-gaming non-geek friends to try out Linux, mostly because I couldn’t be arsed to help them clean their Windows installations of the unused software/”cool” apps/temp/cache/malware/junk-files that they’ve been collecting for the last 5+ years causing their computers to become unusable. Not a single one has gone back to Windows and they’re all praising that their computers are working better than ever.

    Linux has gone a long way in terms of compatibility and userfriendliness in the last few years, and had it not been for games I no longer see any reason for the average user to run Windows.

    • Trickyday
    • 6 years ago

    Are Valve and AMD about to ruin PC gaming?

    Wow, what a title. AMD does something good (very good) and of course it’s the end of the world as we know it. lol

    AMD have some nice hardware and some good ideas. APU’s, GPU’s, Huma, Mantle but hey, let’s find something wrong with it. Can’t find anything? well lets just say they are ruining gaming then. Come off it Cyril. Stop foaming at the mouth and get your head around the fact that there is a new era coming that isn’t centered around Intel or Nvidia. How much did Nvidia pay Origin. Cyril, give us your take on the Nvidia/Origin ruining PC gaming! I won’t hold my breath.

      • Cyril
      • 6 years ago

      Not sure I see any foaming at the mouth in this blog post. Maybe if you take the headline out of context, I guess. 😉

      You can read my take on the Nvidia/Origin PC thing [url=https://techreport.com/news/25467/origin-pc-drops-amd-gpus-citing-stability-overheating-issues-other-problems<]here[/url<]. I don't think an exclusivity deal with a single, small system builder qualifies as "ruining PC gaming." However, if other system builders follow suit, you can definitely look forward to some foaming at the mouth on my part. 🙂

        • l33t-g4m3r
        • 6 years ago

        What about EA/Origin? I think moving PC gaming to linux/mantle is a good thing, and it’s not going to affect Windows gaming whatsoever, or at least until Microsoft fully implodes on itself. SteamOS exclusives? Give me a break. That’s a crock and you know it. Same with Mantle, which merely allows direct porting, and doesn’t change the normal porting process at all.

        Actually, the real competitor to SteamOS is consoles. SteamOS/Steambox could potentially put consoles out of business after this generation, making PC the only platform for gaming, thus eliminating the fragmented game market and console exclusives.

        The only problem Microsoft has, is their unwillingness to give customers features that they want. If they continue to stagnate and marginalize customer feedback, they’ll implode. SteamOS is merely the market adapting to demand, and there’s always Wine and virtualbox for running old windows software down the road.

        Also, I reserve any final judgement on mantle until after games & benchies come out, and nvidia discusses what they’re doing about it. It’s way too early to tell on any of this stuff, and making statements saying it’s bad without evidence is just pure conjecture.

    • res0r9lm
    • 6 years ago

    lmao @ butt hurt windows users

    • spigzone
    • 6 years ago

    Bottom line:

    Three years out you buy AMD for the best gaming experience per dollar spent across ALL platforms, form factors and OSes.

    Among x86 players, Nvidia will have faded from the scene and it will be AMD vs Intel with a likelihood Intel adopts Mantle when it becomes available because – why not – it’s free and will become the overarching API used everywhere.

    The ARM players, already HSA Founders, will have HSA/Mantle compliant SOCs or will be in the process of engineering them.

    Developers and publishers will be creating astounding write once games they can then easily port across all those platforms, form factors and OSes.

    I’m not seeing the downside here for PC gaming.

    Granted, there will be a gargantuan downside for Nvidia, and a short term downside for those in the Nvidia ecosystem, but I’m not seeing how that translates into a downside for PC gaming taken as a whole.

    As for Steam – they’re going to stumble out of gate by not getting on the AMD/HSA/Mantle bandwagon which is the only technology able to provide a high enough performance at a low enough cost to make a Steam Console gain wide market acceptance and which guarantees an enthusiastic response from the developers and publishers. There will be a less enthusiastic response to Steam diverging from the path to the Holy Grail – write once easily port everywhere – AMD has opened the door to.

    Valve should have ACCOMODATED Intel and Nvidia while FOCUSING on AMD/HSA/Mantle as Steams future. AMD is going to end up being the predominant Steam Machine anyway, and AMD is going to be the Logo everyone associates with high quality gaming in a few years, Gaming Evolved is going to become ubiquitous.

    • ronch
    • 6 years ago

    Many have lamented that if you wanted to play games on your PC, there really isn’t any alternative to Windows unless you’re happy with those home-made games made for Linux. But now that there’s a new OS that aims to become an alternative, it’s strange that it just feels wrong. It’s like there’s no need for SteamOS to exist and Steam is trying too hard to blaze their own trail. I don’t know, really. Never was a Steam user so maybe others can benefit from this, but not me. We’ll see how SOS will pan out.

    • spigzone
    • 6 years ago

    Lets look at it from a developer/publisher point of view, namely EA’s. Here’s a list of selected statements from their Hawaii Mantle slide deck presentation: [url<]http://www.frostbite.com/connect/#battlefield-4-frostbite-mantle[/url<] 1. Amazing and fun discussions to adapt & align future hardware and software. 2. Been working closely with AMD on performance and quality - CPU and GPU. 3. Frostbite has been parallelized further to run on up to 8 CPU cores. 4. An absolute highlight of our long term collaboration with AMD is coming to fruition: MANTLE. MANTLE 5. Low-level, high performance, console-style API for PC! ... YAY! 6. Built by AMD in close collaboration with us here at DICE/EA. 7. Direct result of our discussions. 8. Will be cross platform - very important for us. 9. Battlefield 4 is the pilot project and first user of Mantel. 10. Gamers will get the absolute best possible performance and experience out of AMD hardware. MANTLE IN FROSTBITE 11. Superb CPU performance. 12. very low overhead loading, rendering and streaming. 13. Perfect parallel rendering - utilize all 8 CPU cores. 14. Full access to graphics hardware capabilities. 15. Lots of low level optimizations made possible. BATTLEFIELD 4 16. Optimized for Radeon GPUs. 17. Great crossfire and Eyefinity support. FUTURE 18. [b<][i<]Super[/b<][/i<] excited about Mantle! 19. Tons of ideas going forward (smiley face). "[b<][i<]Super[/b<][/i<] excited" ? ... what is this, the sixth grade? Well, no, but it is a significant phraseology in this context and speaks to the importance of Mantle to EA's future plans and, conversely, the unimportance of Nvidia to EA's future plans. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to discern EA has decided there are significant benefits in aligning very tightly with AMD going forward. Nvidia cards will still be given 'standard' treatment, but all the excitement will be in the AMD space. AMD will be bringing the Mantle Advantage to the larger form factor x86 mobile market in 1H 2014. That means high quality EA AAA gaming where it didn't exist before in the tablet -> cheap laptop space. I's not a stretch to project AMD will be bringing the Mantle Advantage to Android with ARM/HSA/GCN SOCs in 2015. That opens up the phablet -> laptop Android/Chrome market to high quality EA AAA gaming ... and likely to the smartphone market in 2016. Microsoft's Surface can catch both those rides. Then there's the 'Tons of ideas going forward (smiley face). 'Tons of ideas' ?? Smiley face ?? EA is seeing some seriously expanded vista's here - a whole lot of brand new future profit streams ... courtesy of Mantle. It's also clear Mantle is going to provide [b<]SIGNIFICANTLY[/b<] better gameplay. At least on EA games. As EA stands to benefit, so to do the rest of the developers and publishers. Turns out EA has an exclusivity deal with AMD for 'PR purposes'. AMD has also been developing Mantle in collaboration with 'several' other partners - to be revealed in November. Frostbite has 16 mantle games in the pipeline. One might presume, considering EA's enthusiasm with Mantle, the Ignite engine will be Mantlized and the entire roster of EA sports games will become Mantle games. Add in the games the 'several' partners are working on and who wouldn't have a 'must play' game in their future that will be Mantle optimized? Bottom line here appears to be Mantle will enjoy widespread support and AMD GCN AIBs a no brainer choice across a wide swath of gamers. As for valve .. not much doubt what will eventually win the Steam Machine shootout - AMD CPUs, APUs and GPUs will. If you have $500 to spend on your living room Steam Box, AMD will provide a level of performance an Intel/Nvidia machine cannot come close to matching. Nvidia a distant second to AMD in just a year? .. follow the facts and assess objectively. So are Steam and AMD about to ruin PC gaming? ... I'd say no, they are about to expand the gaming audience and by do so expand PC gaming. Nvidia might not be along for the ride, but they're not the company leading the way to a substantially expanded gaming market and they will not be vital to the success of PC gaming going into the future.

      • Meadows
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]"9. Battlefield 4 is the pilot project and first user of Mantel."[/quote<] [i<]Man[/i<]tel? Is this like Intel, but for real men?

    • anotherengineer
    • 6 years ago

    Last time I really played a game was July 2012, I didn’t realize little ones would be so time consuming.

    I don’t think I would be concerned for the time being, I’m sure it will take a awhile for Valve’s steam box/os to gain momentum and the same with AMD’s mantle API.

    I think the DRM is more of a concern for some games right now. However it looks like interesting times ahead.

    • Kougar
    • 6 years ago

    Steam OS does complicate things, but at the same time it also simplifies a few others.

    Games rarely support Linux, often because the dev or publisher doesn’t think the sales will justify the costs. Steam and the Humble Bundle have both begun slowly chipping away at that line of thinking, but it would take something like Steam OS to finally change the status quo.

    If Steam OS can catch on with a large enough market presence, then all studios have to do is make sure there’s a linux port to their PC titles and they’re golden. They will pick up extra sales natively, but Steam OS would guarantee they would see some concrete returns on the developmental costs for linux titles. This in itself would also provide stronger incentive for future game engines to be developed for OpenCL again, as well.

    • Village
    • 6 years ago

    Couldn’t developers in theory switch to primarily OpenGL support? As far as I know, AMD/NVidia/Intel Graphics all support OpenGL. The PS4/WiiU are OpenGL as well IIRC. Mobile devices which are garnering a lot of attention from devs these days are also OpenGL.

    Other then the XB1, the reason to support DX appears to be coming to an end.

    • Ratchet
    • 6 years ago

    TWIMTBP has been here for over a decade and not a god damned word about how shitty it is for everyone but NVIDIA users. ATI comes up with an OPEN API to ease migration between Console and PC game developers, which does nothing but HELP PC gamers, and we get bullshit articles like this. Fuck you Tech Report.

      • Cyril
      • 6 years ago

      Yes, we get it. You think we have a [url=https://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89280<]vendetta against AMD[/url<]. The truth is, AMD already has its own version of the TWIMTBP program. It's called [url=https://techreport.com/review/23779/amd-ramps-up-its-gaming-evolved-program<]Gaming Evolved[/url<], and it's already [url=https://techreport.com/news/24463/nvidia-acknowledges-tomb-raider-performance-issues<]caused problems[/url<] for the rival camp, making it no better for gamers than the Nvidia program. For the record, I'm no fan of either initiative. I don't think it serves PC gamers to have developers favor one GPU maker or another. Which is precisely why I'm concerned about Mantle. And until Nvidia announces support for it, which may never happen (remember, PhysX was [url=http://www.bit-tech.net/custompc/news/602205/nvidia-offers-physx-support-to-amd--ati.html<]supposed to be open[/url<], as well), I will remain concerned.

        • spigzone
        • 6 years ago

        It certainly doesn’t serve review sites to favor one GPU maker over another. Whether is serves PC gamers is another matter.

        Does it serve PC gamers if they get substantially better gameplay experiences on substantially lower priced hardware? If the PC AAA gaming market is substantially expanded?

          • Diplomacy42
          • 6 years ago

          That is a very short sighted attitude.

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            I disagree.

        • psyph3r
        • 6 years ago

        This article speaks for itself. Along with most articles on this site.

        • Ratchet
        • 6 years ago

        Not my point at all. If you had written several articles on how shitty TWIMTBP is for PC gamers (you know, at any point over the last [url=http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/the-way-its-meant-to-be-played-celebrates-its-10th-anniversary<]decade+[/url<] since it was introduced) then by all means, write this article as well.[quote<]“The Way It's Meant to be Played™" program was initiated in 2002 to draw attention to those games that were created on and developed for NVIDIA graphics cards. The program let gamers know that the very best gaming experience can be found on games powered by the GeForce GPU. Games played on NVIDIA hardware not only [b<]look better[/b<], but [b<]play better[/b<] and allow gamers to experience the game the way the game developer intended.[/quote<] What's the difference? It smacks of outright bias when you only write such tabloid-esque fear mongering crap for AMD initiatives when TWIMTBP has existed for such a long time, has been closed to exclusively favour NVIDIA, and has worked to block ATI technology from games that could easily support it. . Surely when someone from one camp contacts you attempting to convince you to come up with something like this that goes against their primary rival, you should question his motives.

          • peartart
          • 6 years ago

          Imagine if Microsoft made it so DirectX only worked on Nvidia cards. That’s basically what AMD is hoping will happen with Mantle.

          • MadManOriginal
          • 6 years ago

          TWIMTBP and Mantle are entirely different. As Geoff points out, the AMD equivalent to TWIMTBP is Gaming Evolved.

          • Cyril
          • 6 years ago

          TWIMTBP came into being long before I started writing for TR, and AMD has had its own devrel/marketing program for a very long time, as well. Neither program has ruined PC gaming as such, and I’ve never felt the need to write articles saying they have. Nevertheless, I have criticized the collateral damage caused by these programs in my writing, as below:

          [url=https://techreport.com/news/24463/nvidia-acknowledges-tomb-raider-performance-issues<]https://techreport.com/news/24463/nvidia-acknowledges-tomb-raider-performance-issues[/url<] [quote<]I'm getting a mild sense of poetic justice from this story. Radeon owners surely remember the bad old days of Nvidia-backed, "The Way It's Meant To Be Played" titles that performed poorly on AMD GPUs at release. Now, the tables have turned. Ultimately, of course, favoring one GPU vendor over another in this way only hurts the PC as a gaming platform.[/quote<] Mantle is a little different from conventional devrel programs, and it has the potential to have different effects on the industry. I don't think it will ruin PC gaming, either. What I said in this blog post is that the [i<]combination[/i<] of Mantle and SteamOS could fragment the PC as a gaming platform, which could, potentially, damage it. Now, with respect to your last statement: [quote<]Surely when someone from one camp contacts you attempting to convince you to come up with something like this that goes against their primary rival, you should question his motives.[/quote<] If you're saying what I think you are, which is that someone from the industry urged me to write this blog post, then you're very much mistaken. TR doesn't work that way, nor does any self-respecting publication.

            • KarateBob
            • 6 years ago

            Mantle is going to fragment the PC gaming landscape the same way Android did it for smartphones. It kicks the lazy incumbent system out of the water, causes them to look at their product and hopefully fix the flaws, and everybody wins.

            • Klimax
            • 6 years ago

            Mantle ain’t Android. It is controlled by GPU vendor and is strongly hardware dependent (closer to Macs and IOS).
            It won’t do anything you posit, because it can’t. (Low level API is fundamentally different thing and serves different goals, interoperability isn’t one of them)

            • KarateBob
            • 6 years ago

            Yes, we aren’t looking for Mantle’s interoperability with Windows, we are ending up with a much better, much more efficient API for PC Gaming moving forward. Look at what happened with OpenCL (which AMD was a huge supporter of, and Apple was too funny enough) when it went up against CUDA. Now CUDA is all but dead.

            • Klimax
            • 6 years ago

            Efficient? Unproven assertion and based upon very weak premise, that DX11 has significant overhead. (Hint: Nobody proven that yet)
            By taking vendor and hardware locking? Yeah, that’s so efficient that it’ll break at earliest hint of hardware change. First, there is no public documentation, but it is only as efficient as is writing and reinventing wheel multiple times. It won’t be more much more efficient then well written drivers against DX/OGL. Once I’ll see docs and SDK I’ll tell you have bad idea it was.

            CUDA dead??? Haha. Tell me again who owns professional market again? (Where these APIs rule)

            All this idiocy does, is fragmentation, hardware lock Glide-style, freezing tech and shift cost of development of optimization to devs. I don’t see any positive, because for AMD it means strong restriction on hardware changes to the point of inability to adapt to changes in CG.

            • Melanine
            • 6 years ago

            You can’t be serious. Isn’t that how NDA work in this industry, in essence?

            • Cyril
            • 6 years ago

            If by “in this industry” you mean “in bizarro world,” then sure. 😉

            • Meadows
            • 6 years ago

            Those are not even the same thing.

          • Melanine
          • 6 years ago

          Not only which, all he knows about TWIMTBP is what he heard from NV’s PR or 3rd parties. I would ask him if he ever verified ACTUAL contracts between game developers and NV. Yeah, we know the answer.

        • Melanine
        • 6 years ago

        Could you link to your editorial criticizing the negative impacts of PhysX on PC gaming? Out of curiosity. Did you know that even with an NVIDIA card, PhysX refused to work when AMD card was “detected” in a PC?

          • Cyril
          • 6 years ago

          Hmm. How’s this?

          [url<]https://techreport.com/news/19216/physx-hobbled-on-the-cpu-by-x87-code[/url<] [quote<]Between the lack of multithreading and the predominance of x87 instructions, the PC version of Nvidia's PhysX middleware would seem to be, at best, extremely poorly optimized, and at worst, made slow through willful neglect. Nvidia, of course, is free to engage in such neglect, but there are consequences to be paid for doing so.[/quote<]

          • KarateBob
          • 6 years ago

          Cyril is conveniently ignoring that entire portion of the PhysX “Debacle”

        • WiseInvestor
        • 6 years ago

        The world doesn’t revolve around Nvidia nor Intel.

        Neither of the two show any convincing bids for next gen console, they strategize the best they could and if the future don’t work out for them, they have only themselves to blame.

        I for one welcome more intense competition from AMD, it WILL FORCE the likes of Nvidia and Intel to lower their price in order to match AMD’s performance.

        PC space will thrive with amazing innovations with or without your “worries” Cyril.

      • NeelyCam
      • 6 years ago

      Wow. Some fanbois are funny.. But some are outright psychotic

      • Meadows
      • 6 years ago

      TWIMTBP never stopped AMD from supporting any game fresh out the door, except for the cheesiest of PhysX settings. Conversely, Mantle WILL stop NVidia, unless the developers make/use an engine capable of more than one rendering path. This is extra work for small studios and might increase engine licensing from big studios.

        • WiseInvestor
        • 6 years ago

        Using you own argument.
        AMD never stop others from using DirectX, if developers simply chose it to run their games on PC. They are free to do so.

        Mantle WILL stop NVidia, UNLESS Nvidia come up with a compiler. Which I’m pretty sure Intel is extremely good at that. Nvidia not so much…

        Nvidia is free to make a compiler after mantle reveal. For their own survival, they better do it fast.

          • Fighterpilot
          • 6 years ago

          Correct +1

          • Meadows
          • 6 years ago

          That’s not my own argument.

        • Laykun
        • 6 years ago

        Writing primarily for Mantle would be suicide. I get the feeling Mantle will see it’s biggest use in pre-built engines from Crytek, DICE and Epic Games as a supplementary feature. This is primarily because they are the only ones with the money to throw at this technology AND have it work right.

        Since these engines already support DX/OGL then there’s not really a problem here. There’s only an advantage if you have the appropriate hardware, which you can already get under Unreal Engine 3 with an nvidia graphics card (hardware accelerated Physx).

        Market share of GPUs alone should answer anyone’s concerns about AMD cornering the market with Mantle, it’s just not going to happen.

      • Trickyday
      • 6 years ago

      Well said. Spot on

        • Fighterpilot
        • 6 years ago

        This article headline is just flamebait and smacks of sour grapes.

          • Melanine
          • 6 years ago

          I am sure they are secretly happy about pageviews.

      • phez
      • 6 years ago

      How quickly you forget the Tomb Raider debacle

        • KarateBob
        • 6 years ago

        But the tomb raider “Debacle” was the developer/publisher’s fault, not AMD’s. Not NVIDIA’s.

      • Deanjo
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]ATI comes up with an OPEN API[/quote<] Dammit, [b<]define[/b<] OPEN API because AMD sure as hell hasn't.

        • chuckula
        • 6 years ago

        Good point, and see my post about about a trivially simple code snippet for rendering a triangle that nobody outside of AMD’s NDA’d major game houses would have any clue how to implement.

          • Deanjo
          • 6 years ago

          It drives me nuts seeing posts about “mantle being an open API” and not seeing one spec being put forth in any public manner. OpenGL is an open API, openCL is an open API, OpenGL ES is an open API…. Until I see one open commit, Mantle is a closed, vendor specific API.

    • Krogoth
    • 6 years ago

    I’m more concerned about developers making games that fun and enjoyable to play not be tech demos and interactive cinema non-sense that is commonplace these days.

    BTW, SteamOS and Steambox aren’t about taking over gaming PCs. They are Valve’s attempt to seize the living room from Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft.

    • HisDivineOrder
    • 6 years ago

    I think Steam has to have its own OS as a threat against Microsoft shutting down third party user-installable applications versus app-store-only-installed app models. If they don’t have a viable threat against that, MS will feel free to shut down the old application model at their leisure and move to apps only. If there is a viable alternative by the time MS is ready to do that, then MS won’t be able to do it because they’ll essentially be saying, “Okay, the rules are over. Now you are switching platforms.” In which case, all bets are off. People will leave Windows, but where will they go after? To Windows app store? To SteamOS? To OSX? Hell, to iOS or Android?

    The point is Steam wants to be sure they’re there to “encourage” MS not to do that. MS would be suicidal to try that if SteamOS is a thriving, viable way of making Linux really work for gamers. Gamers are the one large group of users of Windows that have refused to leave BECAUSE of games. If games suddenly can be had elsewhere on PC’s, then suddenly MS has to fight to keep what they’ve always had by default.

    Which could encourage them to improve DirectX, improve Windows for PC gamers, improve lots of things that they’ve been taking for granted.

    Think IE6 and how it took Firefox (and then Chrome) to wake the sleeping dragon. Even if you don’t like or use IE right now, it still saw MAJOR improvements from IE6. This was mostly because MS sensed there was a threat on their doorstep. That’s what SteamOS needs to do to Windows.

    As for Mantle, I see that as a blight and a fragmentation threat. I recognize that it’s about the only way AMD is going to see HUMA used on the PC so that their APU’s have any chance of living up to their full potential come the days when the CPU and GPU parts are fully integrated. I also see that it’s a way for AMD to spend less on development of GPU’s and advancements in drivers while getting all the performance benefits of that without spending lots of money. Still, it really is Glide 2.0 and there’s a reason Glide died. A reason most old timers were glad to see it gone.

    Glide retarded development of 3dfx’s GPU’s that spent far too long trying to maintain support for the aging standard in the face of more generalized API’s. Glide kept 3dfx in power far longer than they should have. But Glide did help bring 3d gaming into the modern age, so that was good.

    There’s just no reason for Mantle for the industry or for gamers. The only people really benefiting from Mantle is AMD. I’d argue even AMD users won’t benefit in the long run because of how much it’s going to fragment game development and spread resources already too thin far thinner for rather marginal benefit: greater performance.

    That’s why I don’t see it working out. The benefit to SteamOS is a whole host of improvements from game streaming to cheap boxes to people wanting to get away from Windows altogether. Plus, Valve says their OpenGL is faster than DX in Windows by a lot. We’ll see.

    Meanwhile, the benefit of Mantle is… more performance. That’s it. There’s nothing else to it. It’s not cheaper because a company still has to port to DirectX, so Mantle is just them having to do ANOTHER API. It’s always an additional cost. Mantle can’t be used with other companies’ GPU’s no matter how open it is because it is a low level API, to the metal, and as such would have to have games tailored to each GPU architecture. That’s at a minimum three architectures and that’s not counting earlier AMD GPU’s based on non-GCN designs.

    As such, I don’t see it. This is a whole lot of mess for a tiny gain that may not even be a gain for those users because the cost of Mantle is going to be something that is spread across the tiny fraction of resources PC game ports usually get. Meaning every port will be worse for having Mantle if it has Mantle unless AMD pays for it completely. Even if the game engine supports Mantle, the developer is still going to have QA and work out the quirks. That costs money, that takes manhours, and that’s money and manhours that could have been assigned to working on the OpenGL version instead.

    One version or three? It makes little sense to choose three just to have a marginal improvement in performance unless you’re outright getting 8 million dollars to do it. Hence, DICE’s support of Mantle.

    Comparing SteamOS’s arrival in the face of the threat of a Windows lockdown of the PC market to Mantle trying to do an end-run around competition with vastly more resources and money (and time) is really doing SteamOS a disservice.

      • Srsly_Bro
      • 6 years ago

      Can you port your version to the TL;DR version?

        • auxy
        • 6 years ago

        HisDivineOrder only comes in TL;SR (too long; still read). Read it — you can thank me later.

        • ludi
        • 6 years ago

        Uh, but that IS the TL;DR version. The original WaltC version spanned more than 700 column inches.

      • peartart
      • 6 years ago

      Worrying that desktop operating systems will move to the iOS App store model is a little like worrying about space alien’s fascination with schizophrenic hicks.

        • destroy.all.monsters
        • 6 years ago

        Clearly MS placed a store in their OS and toddler tiles as the interface in order to improve the desktop experience.

        Clearly.

        It’s funny – so many people want to criticize Mantle before it’s even out but utterly fail to see what’s been going on right in front of them.

      • NeelyCam
      • 6 years ago

      So is this why some people prefer 4:3 aspect ratios?

      No, that doesn’t make sense. This post needs a 1:3 aspect ratio

      • destroy.all.monsters
      • 6 years ago

      I think you’re reading way too much into Mantle. Interesting points though. I agree regarding SteamOS but considering MS’s suicide tactics on the desktop I don’t think anything will stop them from going full retard.

    • Эльбрус
    • 6 years ago

    Where is the problem? SteamOS still runs on a PC, do you maybe mean “ruin gaming on Windows” ?

    Then yes. Instead of DX I see the future with OpenGL and Mantle.

    OpenGL for everything (PC+Mobile, Win+Linux) and everybody (AMD,NV,Intel, small studios).
    Remember John Carmack? He is programming OpenGL these times.

    Mantle: For the game engine programmers on any platform (Win, Linux, Mobile). Linux is not announced yet, but AMD would be really stupid if they would not use it on mobile platforms. There were recently also rumors about an ARM APU from AMD .. of course it will have an GCN-GPU part. BF4 on your AMD tablet? Why not …

    The looser here is of course Microsoft, they will loose their market share with their proprietary solution. Only PC and only Win is outdated these times.

    About SteamOS: It is FREEEEE, so dont complain. Dual boot is seriously no problem nowadays. You could even start Linux from within windows, by clicking on a start icon .. really easy.

    Instead of a software monopoly (windows) we’ll get kind of a hardware monopoly with Mantle (AMD), but as long as the studios also program an OpenGL port, the situation is better than nowadays, where they will have an DX+OpenGL-port.

    It is probably also good news for Gamers on Apple OS.

    I have no reason to get concerned, I just see more choices in the future. Nvidia may be in trouble, too, but not as much as Microsoft.

      • auxy
      • 6 years ago

      [quote=”Эльбрус”<]About SteamOS: It is FREEEEE, so dont complain. Dual boot is seriously no problem nowadays. You could even start Linux from within windows, by clicking on a start icon .. really easy.[/quote<]Really? REALLY? Dual-booting is an enormous pain in the ass now, more than it has ever been before. I don't understand how you can possibly say it's no problem nowadays.

        • peartart
        • 6 years ago

        yeah, dual booting sucks. Virtualization is the only way to go when it comes to multiple operating systems on one piece of hardware.

        • Diplomacy42
        • 6 years ago

        by “dual booting is an enormous PITA now” do you mean on windows 8? Because I’ve never had trouble with crazy dual-boot schemes on windows 7…

        if you are specifically referring to windows 8, then the correct phrasing is “windows 8 sucks.” ofc I never tried to dual boot Linux on the laptop I tested 8 on.

      • jihadjoe
      • 6 years ago

      VT-d is going to become a lot more important as the OS space gets fragmented. It’d be sweet to be able to run SteamOS in a VM (or Windows in a VM) and your games have access to the GPU.

        • Bauxite
        • 6 years ago

        Ironically vt-d with full gpu passthrough only works on amd right now. There is a performace concern too. That vga legacy crap suck, gpus really need sr-iov or better yet mr-iov esp with multi gpu.

      • Klimax
      • 6 years ago

      We’ll talk about success of SteamOS and loss of Microsoft in about five to ten years. Depending how much of catalogue you’ll be able to play at all…

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      A slide in EA’s Hawaii presentation highlighted EA required Mantle be cross platform. Not likely
      AMD didn’t want this so it may have been a pushback to a Microsoft attempt to keep it on windows.

        • chuckula
        • 6 years ago

        [quote<] EA required Mantle be cross platform.[/quote<] Uh... of course they did. PS4 --> one platform. Xbone --> another platform. Mantle working on both: Cross Platform!

          • spigzone
          • 6 years ago

          More likely related to this AMD Executive’s quote at Computex “It is absolutely the end goal to create a development ecosystem where first-party games will be written to the games consoles first … but providing the capability to leverage that investment into PC market, into mobile form factors, into cloud. Definitely there’s that desire.”

      • MarioJP
      • 6 years ago

      I am sorry I don’t like to dualboot i like to have a system where i can have my games and programs in one OS. Virtualizing is the future. And second to note. I just wiped Ubuntu 13.04 and put Windows back on. Its poorly optimized even on the host computer. Until Linux is as snappy like windows 7 and especially 8. I am not touching Linux.

    • jessterman21
    • 6 years ago

    From an outsider’s perspective, I can see fragmentation being just another obstacle. Especially with the much cheaper and incredibly attractive PS4.

    But from an insider’s perspective, and a huge fan of Big Picture mode, I’m excited for SteamOS. And Mantle could be great, but I think Nvidia’s and Microsoft’s counterarguments are what I’m excited for on the API front.

    • Ashbringer
    • 6 years ago

    I have no idea why you’d think that PC gaming is getting worse because of two great things. Not only is SteamOS and Mantle a great thing for PC gaming, but a great thing for PC’s in general.

    Firstly SteamOS. I don’t think Valve wants SteamOS to take the place of Windows, but they do want other Linux distro’s to pay attention to what they’re doing. The only reason Valve made SteamOS is because the Linux distro’s aren’t working on ways to improve gaming. So Valve stepped in and is giving them an example. Valve expects at some point to not need to work on SteamOS once other distro’s have their acts together. But this is really good for PC’s because it means that some of us can move away from Windows finally to a cheap and open source OS. It’s good for PC’s in general cause even manufacturer’s will eventually include Linux and reduce the price of PC’s and compete against tablets. It has a huge domino effect.

    Mantle though is just necessary. As graphic cards get faster, it gets harder to effectively feed them data without killing the CPU or killing the GPU’s performance. Drivers from Nvidia and AMD offset draw calls by moving the process over to an inactive CPU core. At some point GPU’s will get too fast to effectively feed them data, and low level api’s are necessary. If you get a good 20%-30% increase in performance from Mantle or other low level code, then why do it any other way? Of course this can be done through OpenGL, but it would still be vendor specific code.

    Mantle is just AMD’s way to muscle the market without doing extra work. Cause games that use Mantle will likely have no additional effort from developers as they would have to code for Mantle anyway. At some point, we’ll have to address the overhead that high level API’s like Direct3D and OpenGL have on overall performance, cause otherwise it’ll just get worse as graphic cards get faster. Though a standard architecture for all graphic card manufacturer’s to use would solve this problem, but good luck on getting everyone to agree and use a specific architecture. So for now developers may find themselves working on multiple API’s, but that’s not so bad because we really only have three graphic card manufacturer’s. Intel will likely never create their own level API, so it’ll be Mantle + whatever Nvidia makes + OpenGL. If AMD will allow low level work in OpenGL, then it’s just OpenGL+AMDOpenGL+NvidiaOpenGL. BTW, custom OpenGL extensions aren’t anything new, and will likely make a comeback.

      • NovusBogus
      • 6 years ago

      If that’s how SteamOS plays out it will be really good–it seems like even Microsoft wants gamers and power users to ditch Windows these days–but I have concerns that, like Steam itself, it will become another monolith and trading one stack for another isn’t really an improvement. To be fair Valve is a very outspoken booster of all forms of gaming and it’s not their fault that so many developers use Steam as cheap internet DRM, but what happens if that’s the approach the publishing cartel takes with SteamOS?

      Mantle will be good iff nvidia picks it up, otherwise PC developers will pass on it just like they did DX10. And thanks to crowdfunding I do think we’re going to start seeing more PC-focused games worth playing over the next few years.

        • Ashbringer
        • 6 years ago

        Whatever Valve does with Steam, will likely be picked up by other distro’s like Ubuntu and maybe Fedora I guess. Whatever the case is, if people make the switch to Linux to play Steam games I doubt a lot of people would use SteamOS. People will only use SteamOS just to try it out, otherwise you’ll likely switch over to Ubuntu or Mint.

        Also it’s likely that other big players like EA and Blizzard will make the move to Linux. As much power Steam has over gamers, we do like games made by EA and Blizzard. So eventually there will be a go to distro for gamers. As it is right now, the only go to Linux OS is Ubuntu, and they’re about to screw things up with Mir, and I think everyone hates Unity.

        There isn’t enough details about Mantle to know how it’ll effect Nvidia in performance, but I’m sure Nvidia will create their own low level api. If not that then they’ll use custom OpenGL extensions to get high performance. Though like Mantle the custom OpenGL extensions are going to be vendor specific. Both Nvidia, AMD, and ATI have made their own custom OpenGL extensions in the past. Download Geek32 GPU Caps Viewer and you can cycle through the list of supported extensions. Even my Radeon card supports Nvidia custom extensions for compatibility.

        To give you an example I found “GL_NV_conditional_render” to look up on my 6750. Turns out it was submitted by Pat Brown and Eric Werness from Nvidia. This extension is written against the OpenGL 2.0 Specification. That extension like many others made by Nvidia is as close to Mantle as you can get. There were a lot of developers who worked on specifically Nvidia OpenGL, cause it works well and fast. Eventually ATI/AMD implemented the extension, but of course no where near as fast as it would work on Nvidia hardware. Why you think Nvidia rules in OpenGL?

        OpenGL is just a guideline on how to make OpenGL graphics. With custom extensions, you can do some low level stuff, but it would still not work on other vendors hardware like Mantle.

          • Pwnstar
          • 6 years ago

          nVidia already has their own low level API. Nobody uses it.

          [quote<]I'm sure Nvidia will create their own low level api.[/quote<]

            • Ashbringer
            • 6 years ago

            That I didn’t know. If that API has been around for a while, then Nvidia might have the upper hand on AMD. Right now Mantle only works on HD 7000 series and higher, but NVAPI probably works on all of Nvidia products. At least products that are DX10 and up capable.

            Let me tell you that it’s bullcrap that Mantle doesn’t work on HD 5000 and 6000 series cards. Cause there really isn’t much of a difference. Just a method to get people upgrade perfectly good hardware. Cause right now if you have a HD 5950 or 6950, there isn’t a reason to go upgrade.

            • Pwnstar
            • 6 years ago

            No, that makes sense. AMD 6000-series and under used VLIW architecture, where as everything after is Graphics Core Next arch.

            • AMPinoy
            • 6 years ago

            Again, Mantle only works on GCN architecture GPUs. The algorithms of Mantle is only made for GCN. Not VLIW4 or VLIW5.

            The good thing with Mantle is that you can get better performance with GCN. You dont want to upgrade from 5000 or 6000 to GCN? fine but you wont be able to harness Mantle optimizations. simple as that.

            You cant run ARM applications on x86 procies. same with GPUs simple as that.

            • Deanjo
            • 6 years ago

            If you are referring to NVAPI, Battlefield 3 and 4 both support it.

            [url<]http://wccftech.com/battlefield-4-frostbite-3-support-amd-mantle-nvidia-nvapi-apis-pc-optimizations/[/url<] [quote<] But Frostbite 3 is more than that as John Anderson, the lead guy behind the team at DICE in developing AMD’s Mantle API said on his twitter profile that Battlefield 4 would also feature NVIDIA’s NVAPI support as it did in Battlefield 3.[/quote<]

            • Pwnstar
            • 6 years ago

            Yeah, NVAPI. That’s news to me!

          • l33t-g4m3r
          • 6 years ago

          My preferred distro is Mint. Don’t have too many complaints other than they changed the way to mount cdroms, and it makes things difficult for some programs. Specifically, I think it mounts a cd to the name of the cd, so you have to individually map cds. That gave me some trouble with a few programs/games including dosbox.

          SteamOS might be the best distro to use if Valve is bug-checking for weird issues like this.

      • fpsduck
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]the Linux distro's aren't working on ways to improve gaming. [/quote<] Totally agreed on this one.

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      “”Cause games that use Mantle will likely have no additional effort from developers as they would have to code for Mantle anyway.””

      um if you have to code 2x,, then you code 2x. *WORSE* now you have to learn some super special way because with a close to metal code base you have to ‘learn’ something new, and debug that… in addition to d3d.

      learn to code mantel
      code in mantle
      code in 3d3
      debug mantle
      debug d3d
      patch mantle
      patch d3d

      Terrible idea … why? well think on this **how many games support d3d AND ogl** that are >>windows primary<< games.

        • Ashbringer
        • 6 years ago

        The reason why it’s no additional work for developers is because console gaming is still the focus for most developers. And since both PS4 and Xbone will use AMD chips, they’ll use Mantle as well. So unless developers don’t use Mantle on consoles, which they can do, then Mantle won’t create additional work.

        Only developers who don’t use Mantle on consoles, or don’t make games for consoles will see Mantle as twice the work.

          • B.A.Frayd
          • 6 years ago

          [url<]http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/168671-xbox-one-will-not-support-amds-mantle-and-ps4-is-also-unlikely-is-mantle-doa[/url<] So, basically, it will be "twice the work". Or maybe not, because developers will not use Mantle at all.

      • Xenolith
      • 6 years ago

      Bump. Windows & direct3d will be the primary target for PC games for years to come. Mantle and SteamOS are nice bonuses for enthusiasts. Nothing more.

      • AMPinoy
      • 6 years ago

      Obviously the writer is bias.. wahahaha!!

    • f0d
    • 6 years ago

    the only thing im worried about if steambox’s become very popular is that devs will make pc games use a controller instead of KB/mouse as standard

    the second i HAVE to use a controller for FPS games is the day i stop playing games

      • NeelyCam
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]the second i HAVE to use a controller for FPS games is the day i stop playing games[/quote<] Your loss

    • hubick
    • 6 years ago

    Nothing could be [i<]worse[/i<] for gaming than standardization around a single [i<]proprietary[/i<] platform (DirectX). OpenGL is a win for open standards, the rise of which promotes competition rather than stagnation, and which will be much bigger win for consumers long term.

    • alphadogg
    • 6 years ago

    Game developers have to write to multiple targets, as it is now. Mantle actually reduces the number. So, it’s a win for devs. Given many systems now sport AMD, this is actually great for the industry and will lower costs… Probably not passed on to us users, though. 🙂

    • jdaven
    • 6 years ago

    Well at least AMD hardware will make it into Steam Machines:

    [url<]http://www.anandtech.com/show/7412/radeon-gpus-confirmed-for-retail-steam-machines[/url<]

      • cygnus1
      • 6 years ago

      Was logging in to point that out too. I don’t think any of this will be as apocalyptic to PC gaming as it’s been made out to be.

    • Bensam123
    • 6 years ago

    Mantle ruining gaming? This could just as easily read SteamOS ruins gaming. They both fragment the entirety of gaming industry, not just PC gaming, adding a new console to the mix. The fourth option.

    I really don’t know how Mantle will change things, but as was stated MS’s ability to manage things has been overshadowed by their willingness to destroy the PC experience so consoles gain a extra edge. As long as AMD doesn’t unfairly hinder competitors I don’t see this being a bad thing. If this becomes universal DX may just be dropped all together on the Windows platform in favor of Mantle and then OGL being dropped on consoles for the sake of simplicity.

    The results are completely unknown and could definitely go bad? Sure. When change is a a foot, there is always uncertainty, doubt, and even fear that things will end up ‘broken’. Do I think this is bad in general? No. I think these changes are pleasant compared to what we’ve had to deal with for the last seven years.

    Consoles may at first offer a ‘competitive price’, but that quickly changes as the last consoles have shown us. They will die with this generation, either by Steam’s hand or by the realization that a PC does everything a console does better. Kids that could only afford what their parents gave them have grown up, they have disposable income, and they can purchase PCs now. We have an entire generation of gamers with the ability to purchase PCs, great or small, and a willingness to do it.

      • Commander Octavian
      • 6 years ago

      Having an entire generation of so called gamers able to purchase PCs doesn’t change a thing. The has to do with what people want, and most people don’t know what they want. They play games not because they’re enjoyable, but because they have time to kill or rather time to waste.
      Those mostly degenerate games that celebrate degeneracy and immaturity are unplayable. I honestly can’t remember the last time I tried a game and thought it was original and enjoyable. Degeneracy dominates modern Western culture. It’s a trend and maybe a sign of the decline and collapse of the West.

      When you have a whole civilization losing its demography, culture, industry and even morality and normality at this pace, it doesn’t look like anything decent will come out of it. It’s the age of the decline of the West, the civilization and the people who gave humanity all there is to be given.

        • Bensam123
        • 6 years ago

        Perhaps you should just stick to the Wii and your walled garden then. I’m not sure why you chose my post to crucify the entire game industry under. :l

        • heinsj24
        • 6 years ago

        Didn’t the Athenians say the same thing about Socrates?

          • peartart
          • 6 years ago

          look how that turned out!

          • Commander Octavian
          • 6 years ago
            • peartart
            • 6 years ago

            is that ethnic minority white people? because they are pretty whiny.

            • Commander Octavian
            • 6 years ago
            • Cyril
            • 6 years ago

            Hadriandidwell, you were already banned for your weird white supremacist rhetoric. What made you think re-registering under a different name with the same IP address and going on to post the same nonsense would fly?

            Your new account has been deactivated. Please don’t come back.

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      AMD came out with a statement Mantle not only had Microsofts blessing, but Microsoft was an active participant in it’s development. Probably related to a line in a EA slide at the Hawaii presentation clarifying EA required Mantle to be cross platform.

        • Commander Octavian
        • 6 years ago

        I don’t think Microsoft cares at this point. Microsoft abandoned PC gaming and stopped sufficiently working on the DirectX API because they thought PC gaming is irrelevant with two major console players in the gaming realm and they still consider PC gaming irrelevant.
        Mantle is not gonna affect Microsoft’s revenues in the gaming market. Mantle is only bad for Nvidia and potentially Intel, if AMD’s APUs are utilized properly in video games.

          • spigzone
          • 6 years ago

          Steam OS gaming is the leverage to create a viable alternative to Microsoft on an open platform using Steam to provide a vast array of totally hassle free games and software.. That WILL be a problem for Microsoft if it is successful.

            • Commander Octavian
            • 6 years ago

            The SteamOS/machine is indeed trying to create an alternative to DirectX by enforcing openGL. Mantle on the other hand doesn’t coincide with that.

        • Bensam123
        • 6 years ago

        Interesting… Not sure why they’d do that when it’s bound to kill Directx unless they’re interested in no longer holding that crown, but don’t want OGL to be its successor.

          • spigzone
          • 6 years ago

          One thing Mantle can do is enable Xbox One games to be playable on AMD APU equipped Surface devices. Particularly Xbox One exclusive games. Be a nice boost to Surface success.

            • chuckula
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]One thing Mantle can do is enable Xbox One games to be playable on AMD APU equipped Surface devices. [/quote<] Oh totally Spigz! Say, why don't you post a link to those AMD Surface devices on Microsoft's website...

    • dale77
    • 6 years ago

    A new player such as steamos is a problem? I don’t think so. Firstly Microsoft is not a friend of PC gaming, because of their vested interest in xbox. We need a better advocate. Secondly, monocultures are boring, and the pc is by far the most powerful platform for gaming experiences. The pc can handle more than one sub-platform.

    • dragontamer5788
    • 6 years ago

    [quote<]game developers will face two monolithic platforms and a fragmented one—the PC—that will have two starkly different operating systems and three different APIs—Direct3D, OpenGL, and Mantle.[/quote<] This is always how the PC market has worked. Anyone who has ever worked with a weird DirectX bug that only appears on one kind of GPU (typically Intel) knows the feeling. Different GPUs display things differently. PC has never been a unified platform... quality PC games exist only when companies test their games on wide arrays of hardware configurations. XKCD sums up the situation quite well: [url<]http://xkcd.com/927/[/url<] AMD is trying to solve the problem with Mantle. Valve is trying to solve the problem with SteamOS. So we now have 4x more platforms to deal with!!

    • DPete27
    • 6 years ago

    What does Neely have to say about this?

      • NeelyCam
      • 6 years ago

      Was that a troll bait…?

        • WillBach
        • 6 years ago

        He caught one! I kid, I kid 😉

          • NeelyCam
          • 6 years ago

          Sort of. But i don’t really have any time to say anything – I’M TOO BUSY PLAYING A GAME PC GAMERS CAN’T PLAY

            • Srsly_Bro
            • 6 years ago

            Hello Kitty will come to PC one day.

            • auxy
            • 6 years ago

            There have already been several Hello Kitty games!
            [super<]N-not that I'm a fan, or anything...[/super<]

    • Gadgety
    • 6 years ago

    It seems to me the real threat is to Microsoft Windows. The overall PC market is shrinking. Msft Windows it’s losing the regular low end consumer PC crowd to tablets, confused consumers with the crippled RT, gamers will have the choice of consoles and now a Linux gaming PC will be launched. If Steam OS is integrated with XBMC, and you can run Google docs in the browser, what’s left? Only corporate, and various types of professionals, and some power users left in Windows?

    • internetsandman
    • 6 years ago

    I just need something clarified right now
    All of these major consoles and systems will all be using x86 hardware, and the big problem with the last generation was different processers meant completely different versions of a game for each system

    Now that all of the major players are using the same fundamental hardware, why would this make it worse for PC gamers? Even if there’s different operating systems, it’s all the same hardware, and that should make it easier instead of harder, shouldn’t it? Besides, production companies will only devote significant effort into SteamOS if it gains significant market share. That’s one of the reasons Macs still don’t have many games for them even on steam

    • WillBach
    • 6 years ago

    Cyril, I think this is a great thing for PC gaming. While SteamOS and Mantle add some complexity to the equation I think that
    [list=1<][*<]The X-box One/PS4/PC gaming ecosystem as a baseline already exists at a higher complexity level than you say in your post [/*<][*<]That incremental increase in complexity is smaller than you worry[/*<][/list<] For the first point, console game developers already target OpenGL for the PlayStation 3 and 4, and already support non-Win32 APIs for the same reason. In fact, many of the biggest games in terms of sales already use third-party middleware that supports those APIs for them. Developers (the ones I care about) are already targeting controllers [b<]and[/b<] keyboard+mouse. Porting from X-box 360 to PC at least requires that testing. The pre-Mantle, pre-SteamOS industry is already pretty complex. For the second point, I don't think Mantle will create any walled off games. Developers would only target Mantel exclusively if they were rolling their own engine and planning to create a console-only game, something that they are perfectly capable of doing with the current APIs and which indeed they already do. While Mantle may make writing a two-console game as easy for the upcoming generation as writing a one-console game for the current generation I don't think it makes it [b<]that[/b<] much easier than it would be because the X-Box One and PS4 are using the same GPU, anyway. And if developers don't feel like targeting SteamOS but do target Windows they need only test Valve's crazy new gamepad if they want to throw a bone to the streaming folks. Hell, if SteamOS supports the X-box 360 controller for PC (I think it works in baseline Linux) they could just test with that. The great benefits of Mantle and SteamOS are that don't require new efforts from the industry to get the ball rolling. Mantle will be supported by EA Dice's engine, and SteamOS will support streaming from Windows. How many gamers are going to buy or build a SteamOS game who don't already have a Windows PC with Steam installed? How many developers will see a footnote in their licensed engine update mentioning Mantle support and stop testing on nvidia? I think the real risk from Mantle and SteamOS is that they turn out to be really, really good and then the industry doesn't support them. It would be another half-decade of lost potential like the "console port" years or when Creative sued Aureal and then sound cards cost too much while not working well. - my opinion, of course. Not my employer's. (so many edits)

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      No matter how it is done, coding twice costs more money.

      coding for linux, then port to windows costs money
      coding for xbox costs less money to port to pc but it still costs money
      coding for mantel means walled off game… unless you also code for dx, or ogl .. again more money and reinveting the wheel.

      mantle == glide. it will have some success. it will *not* revolutionize gaming.

      steam-os im neutral on.. mostly about the 10′ ui and people playing plants vs zombies and a integrated entertainment center. wont ever attract me until swtor, wow, bf4 run on it native.

        • WillBach
        • 6 years ago

        Well we agree that Mantle won’t destroy gaming 😉 You because you think it won’t be used, I because I think most developers will do the extra work.

        It’s true that coding twice costs more money. I’m re-coding a project now and I’m getting paid for it. But is coding an extra time worth worth it? That’s the question 🙂

        Console developers and engine writers are already writing two graphics code paths. Valve has optimizations specific to nvidia and AMD in their engine and they have to test those optimizations on card from both makes and on Intel GPUs to boot. Game makers wrote different shader paths for cards that supported different versions of directx 9.0c. Bioshock had a different rendering mode for widescreen monitors. There’s always been extra work for developers in this supposedly horizontal market. Sometimes it hurt consumers, like shadows in certain Splinter Cell titles not running on older cards, or when early PS3 games ran slower than on the X-box 360. In the case of Mantle, I think there will be much more good than harm.

        – my opinion, not my employer’s.

          • Chrispy_
          • 6 years ago

          I agree with you, but just out of interest, who do you work for?

            • WillBach
            • 6 years ago

            I work for Microsoft 🙂 MS may have opinions on SteamOS and Mantle, but I don’t know what they are or represent Microsoft.

      • Narishma
      • 6 years ago

      Just a minor thing, but Sony’s consoles have never used OpenGL for any serious game.

        • GENiEBEN
        • 6 years ago

        It’s a popular misconception, they used their own API called PSGL, which in fact was based on OGL ES and Cg.

          • MFergus
          • 6 years ago

          Which was used less often than libgcm I believe.

          • WillBach
          • 6 years ago

          Thanks for clarifying 🙂

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      4 is ‘so many edits’ – Bwa ha ha ha ha!

        • WillBach
        • 6 years ago

        Each edit fixed many typos :-]

    • odizzido
    • 6 years ago

    If steamOS could remove windows as a requirement for PC games I would be quite happy. Also I think DX has also hit the end of the road with DX9. Every time I use DX 10 or 11 my frame rates plummet and I am hard pressed to notice any visual improvements.

    I have serious doubts about mantle, and I do worry about compatibility in the long term, but sitting around using a terrible API that gets no support and is half vendor locked isn’t the answer either.

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      weird. Any title I ever use in dx9 mode is awful, and has bad color artifacts for smoke and some transparencies. where dx-11 has combined shader calls that speed up these same effects and water effects by some 30% by reusing the shader code instead of making multiple calls.

        • odizzido
        • 6 years ago

        dx11 does have better smoke that is true. I still think that it runs super slow though.

      • psyph3r
      • 6 years ago

      That means you need to upgrade your PC from 10 years ago. That doesn’t happen if you have recent hardware from the past 4 years that is actually meant to play games.

        • odizzido
        • 6 years ago

        I am running an i5-750 and a 5850 so I have met your stated requirements. I still find frames to drop hard with DX10/11 though. From what I have seen with a 7850 frame rates drop a ton as well….the difference being it goes from like 150 to 100 where mine will go from 70 to 40.

          • Klimax
          • 6 years ago

          That’s because games under DX10/11 implement more and better effects. Nothing to do with DirectX. (Wrong attribution of problem)

      • spigzone
      • 6 years ago

      “a terrible API that gets no support”

      News to EA.

    • ilyon
    • 6 years ago

    It’s quite amusing: did you complain when NVIDIA bought Ageia and made PhysX a ‘NVIDIA only’ feature ? Did you complain when intel had the worst practices against AMD ?
    AMD seems to have learned from his masters. No matter to complain.
    And, btw, Mantle is not yet a success, i doubt intel let it be successful …

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      Havok, ageia, physx, mantle = terrible ideas and anti-consumer.

        • Commander Octavian
        • 6 years ago

        Is it? Games coded for the new consoles will be easily portable to mantle, so it’s not like Mantle will over-complicate things from the aspect of porting games from consoles to PCs. We’ll have two versions of each game, most likely, a Mantle version and an OpenGL version, which will run on the rest of the platforms out there including the Steam Box.

        Where’s the harm in Manlte? Oh, AMD cards will run everything Mantle-ready a lot faster. Hasn’t that been the case with Nvidia’s Physix? A vendor-locked feature that serves the same purpose?

          • maxxcool
          • 6 years ago

          2x the DEV cost. 2x the dev cost.

          code for d3d
          debug d3d
          patch d3d

          code for ogl
          debug ogl
          patch ogl

          learn to code mantle<< a whole new api
          code for mantle
          debug mantle
          patch mantle

          all to make *1* game ….. holy crap that’s expensive batman…

          see the issue there ?

          • Meadows
          • 6 years ago

          PhysX isn’t the same as Mantle. PhysX never had a point to it.

          • Sagia
          • 6 years ago

          Seem like you don’t know that physx is just a physic library and it can run on all AMD and Intel CPU except for hardware assisted feature, even with that, you still can play that games and run some basic physic effect (http://physxinfo.com/). Also nvidia already fix the “x87 codepath” with their Physx SDK 3.0+ (It even run faster that so called AMD sponser bullet physx with 3.2+) . Meanwhile if developer decide to use only Mantle, do you even think that people with Intel GPU and Nvidia GPU can play with it?

          • Deanjo
          • 6 years ago

          [quote<]AMD cards will run everything Mantle-ready a lot faster[/quote<] To be seen yet. Unless Battlefield 4 runs circles around the Titan by at least 20% using Mantle then one has to ask as a developer if it is worth the extra effort. I wouldn't trust DX vs Mantle render path benchmarks on the same AMD card as it would be just waaaaaaay to easy to cripple the performance of DX on AMD to make Mantle look that much more impressive (especially with AMD paying developers to use Mantle).

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      Worse than being anti-consumer, now it drives up DEV costs.

        • MrJP
        • 6 years ago

        Why? They will already be coding for Mantle for the consoles.

          • auxy
          • 6 years ago

          Probably not. PS4 has their own low-level libraries and you’re nuts if you think MS is going to allow Mantle on the Xbox One.

            • MFergus
            • 6 years ago

            Mantle supposedly IS the low level API on the Xbox One.

            • auxy
            • 6 years ago

            Says Anandtech. Writers at other sites disagree and developers working on the Xbox One right now say that the video driver is “horrible” and “abysmal”.

            • MFergus
            • 6 years ago

            Who’s to say Mantle isn’t horrible and abysmal right now? The only site I know of that guessed where mantle comes from was eurogamer and they guessed PS4 but it seemed like a total guess from them. Mantle has hooks to HLSL so it seems Microsoftish but that could be for the PC version only.

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            I’d love to see a link to that 8).

            • auxy
            • 6 years ago

            [url<]http://www.edge-online.com/news/power-struggle-the-real-differences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/[/url<]

            • jihadjoe
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]a platform-agnostic development build can run at around 30FPS in 1920×1080 on PS4, but it’ll run at “20-something” FPS in 1600×900 on Xbox One[/quote<] and [quote<]Indeed, despite that gulf in speed, the differences between cross platform launch window games will be negligible; with tight deadlines to meet, it’s more expedient for developers to deliberately create near-identical versions.[/quote<] Great lol! At least now when we get a crappy game, we get to complain about it being Xboned. Sounds much better than consolitis or its variant terms.

          • Klimax
          • 6 years ago

          Nope. And on PCs they have another path to validate and fix bugs in-. One which is as narrow and least future-proof as it gets. It shifts costs originally at GPU maker AMD onto devs. They won’t to have a cake yet they want to eat it. By shifting the burden of optimizations.

          Funny thing is, it will bite them and hard. Just wait for their next architecture after NVidia releases Maxwell. Their new hardware will fail Mantel games…

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            That sounds so very credible.

            • Klimax
            • 6 years ago

            More then your baseless fanboy ramblings.

            What makes people believe it will be any different then it was in 90s, then is situation with various CPU instructions (which at least are fully documented and part of extended x86 instruction sets)

            They already have multiple levels of hardware to deal with and then a manufacture decides that they want to add completely new API, just to do vendor and hardware lock-in.

            All this does is to increase matrix of compatibility and testing, thus increasing costs to devs.

            Just simple code for single object is untrivial and that is with full support from DirectX/OpenGL. As soon as complexity goes up, number of failure modes and various interactions show up between simulation, graphics and audio (or even network code). Start removing layers and you gain dependency on hardware implementations (for good example see deltas of performance in Dirt 3: Showdown; Tomb Raider; general tessellation performance in games like Crysis 2 and such), while complexity of your codes skyrockets as you start reinvent wheel. Testing becomes ahrd.

            ==

            As for my credibility, unless somebody has counterpoints and evidence, my posts stand, number of down votes regardless. As for my experience, beside many other things I got to write simpler graphics code in DirectX 9 and 11, just enough to know that it is hard and requires much of time and knowledge and that is with framework.

            Or just writing trivial wireframe or solid colours 3D render showing one box can show you many things…

            ===
            In short I don’t think you have any standing to post about things like “credibility”.

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            That sounds so very credible.

            • Klimax
            • 6 years ago

            AMD fanboyims doesn’t count, spigzone. ETA: As a counter.

          • maxxcool
          • 6 years ago

          umm mantle is not d3d or ogl at *all*

          to repeat

          code for d3d
          debug d3d
          patch for d3d

          code for ogl
          debug for ogl
          patch ogl

          learn all new mantle
          code for mantel
          debug mantle
          patch mantle

          that’s three dev cycles for 1 game.

          and as for the transfer. it is NOT drag and drop. you have large portions of the engine, you have to transform libraries since you are going from close-to-metal to *all* hal-based to allow the other 2 video car vendors to run the game. then you have to debug again… a game you already published. that costs money. OR you dont code for nv or Intel and lose sales…

          this is glide. and it will die in 5 years.. just like glide. worse this HURTS ATI. now they have *3* coding paths to work on. ogl, d3d and mantle… way to drive up the cost of ownership.

            • sschaem
            • 6 years ago

            Directx is on its way out. Most developer wont bother with it anymore on windows PC.

            For most title its going to be OpenGL, And Mantle.

            I can guaranty you that in 5 years, developers to code directly to a graphic API, will have a native Mantle layer, and a OpenGL abstraction. (This might even be provided by AMD… Lets wait and see…)

            I think you have some blinders when looking at whats happening to cross platform development

            If Direct3D didn’t exist today and Micrsosoft would say

            “Today we are releasing a whole new API to access your graphic card… it doesn’t work on Mac, it doesn’t work on linux, it doesn’t work on playstations, it dopesn’t work on the web, it doesn’t work mobile devices iphones,ipads, nor android, chrome, ..etc.. etc..”

            Would you jump up and down on how this will save developers time / money / efforts and help the consumer ???

            Unreal…

            Mantle is years ahead of D3D AND will support more devices, as its goal is stated to be a cross platform API… unlike Direct3D that only work on a small fraction of the gaming devices.

            case close. Mantle > Direct3D in every single way.

            And for developers that dont have the time to support more then 1 API. its OpenGL all the way.

            • maxxcool
            • 6 years ago

            “”Today we are releasing a whole new API to access your graphic card… it doesn’t work on Mac, it doesn’t work on linux, it doesn’t work on playstations, it dopesn’t work on the web, it doesn’t work mobile devices iphones,ipads, nor android, chrome, ..etc.. etc..””

            if it made windows gaming easy and simple… oh wait. it is. so yes..

            this has been done. glide died.

            “”Mantle is years ahead of D3D AND will support more devices, as its goal is stated to be a cross platform API… unlike Direct3D that only work on a small fraction of the gaming devices.””

            please… if it has been years ahead. they should have published this years ago. it is a stunt… based on the xbone. idea of a c2m driver has been on the xbox since DAY 1 2001. why has there not been one before now ? because it is a self limiting prophecy and marketing action.

            • Klimax
            • 6 years ago

            You are wrong about DirectX. (Also have Khronos solved that Extension Hell and Forward compatibility yet?)

          • maxxcool
          • 6 years ago

          2x the DEV cost. 2x the dev cost.

          code for d3d
          debug d3d
          patch d3d

          code for ogl
          debug ogl
          patch ogl

          learn to code mantle<< a whole new api
          code for mantle
          debug mantle
          patch mantle

          all to make *1* game ….. holy crap that’s expensive batman…

          see the issue there ?

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            It’s an existing API modified for use on AMD PC hardware.

            • maxxcool
            • 6 years ago

            so your are personally going to pay studios OT to debug mantle AND d3d AND ogl to port to windows then ?

            IT IS NOT DRAG AND DROP.

            you HAVE to re-code pieces of the engine. HAVE too. then you need to re-debug all of that .. again just to get it to windows. after that then you would have to do it again to get d3d support right.

            AMD PAID dice 8mill for this for 1 game. Are AMD or you going to pay every studio ?

            • maxxcool
            • 6 years ago

            which is not used by xbox1 or 360. so still a new api. And still have to have 3 dev cycles to implement a game in windows.

            if amd wants to be the gaming chip for all platforms thats great for them.

            but for windows. the only platform i use. they are doing a huge disservice and are adding yet another distro/variant of android/variant of linux hell on the fire.

            and since were on the tracks, what happened to opencl? opencl and be retooled as well why not add a 4th api..

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            If Mantle is deeply integrated into Frostbite, why couldn’t the engine be programmed to translate the code from fixed spec AMD console hardware to nearly identical fixed spec AMD PC hardware?

            After an initial investment Mantle optimizations for AMD hardware should be automatically generated, or close to it. Certainly with very little additional cost.

            • maxxcool
            • 6 years ago

            it appears it is not. as they are only releasing a patch to enable mantle support.

          • maxxcool
          • 6 years ago

          Nope… no mantle bs on xbone 🙂

      • WillBach
      • 6 years ago

      I seem to recall Cyril (and other journalists, and customers) complaining a lot.

        • Cyril
        • 6 years ago

        Indeed.

        [url<]https://techreport.com/review/15261/a-first-look-at-nvidia-gpu-physics/5[/url<] [quote<]The downside of all this ought to be obvious to most folks with a red graphics card. PhysX currently doesn't work on AMD GPUs, which is a shame considering the excellent performance of the firm's new Radeon HD 4000-series products.[/quote<]

          • Melanine
          • 6 years ago

          “which is a shame”

          v.

          “Are Valve and AMD about to ruin PC gaming?”

          “Will SteamOS complicate things by virtue of its existence?”

          “Will Mantle encourage developers to prioritize AMD hardware at the expense of Nvidia GPUs?”

          “Will all this fragmentation damage the platform beyond repair?”

          “Tune in next year to find out! SAME TECH TIME, SAME TECH CHANNEL!”

          Sorry I couldn’t resist.

          • alienstorexxx
          • 6 years ago

          Ironic. DICE was one of the first supporting physx back then and now they are doing the same with mantle. You can notice that this alliance did’t make it across the years.
          I think frostbite 3 and the new idea of making cross-platform engines that can be used in other games can make mantle potentially sucsessful. Remember dragon age 3 and nfs rivals will be frostbite based games.
          Crytek seems to be working on mantle too. The only BIG engine left is unreal engine, is the final key for mantle to be the next gen api.

          • sschaem
          • 6 years ago

          Cyril, do you have any statement from AMD that show that Mantle will only work on AMD HW?

          I betthat you do not. Mantle is NOT like Physx. Its an open spec, with a goal to be cross platform.
          Unlike Direct3D, where its closed and proprietary.

          And so far, nothing tells us Mantle will not be slower then D3D on nvidia or intel HW.
          So nvidia/intel HW will also benefit form Mantle by having developer switch from D3D to Mantle on windows PC.

          The only issue one might have is that AMD is taking microsoft place as the driving force.
          But was really MS to be trusted with this role ? And who is better at advancing an API for gaming?
          MS was only listening to themselves and working at their own pace….

            • Cyril
            • 6 years ago

            I would suggest scrolling down to chuckula’s post [url=https://techreport.com/blog/25491/are-valve-and-amd-about-to-ruin-pc-gaming?post=767083<]here[/url<]. Mantle is designed to give developers low-level access to AMD GCN-based GPUs. I don't think AMD has said anything to suggest Mantle will somehow become a replacement for Direct3D—or that, if it does, Intel and Nvidia hardware will benefit from it.

            • sschaem
            • 6 years ago

            It is not open source, that is correct.
            But I didn’t read where they retracted their claims that Mantle is an open API.

            Mantile is also not as close to the metal as we might think.
            Example in Mantle you use HLSL to access all the programmable units, the same high level language you use to program all nvidia and Intel HW.

            So the efficiency in Mantle doesn’t really come from being GCN centric,
            but from its general API design.

            But yes, if AMD now says that the API is not Open then Intel and nvidia wont touch this,
            and only cross platform game engine will offer the option.
            I dont think Google will bother to make a Google Earth for example where they add Mantle to their existing Direct3D and OpenGL render engine.

            But if this is the case (Closed API limited to GCN1.0 and later), then Mantle is the equivalent of Nvidia Cuda.

            Maybe you can get AMD to clarify their stance on Mantle ?
            Is Mantle a proprietary & a close API only suitable for GCN 1.0
            (API spec minimum feature requirement) and later ?

            I haven’t seen the spec, so I dont know if game engine could do this in the future
            (For the engine that need to work on system that dont support OpenGL)

            Game engine <=> Mantle |<=> GCN HW
            ———————————– |<=> OpenGL <=> HIV HW

            But in the end, If Mantle is locked down by AMD to GCN 1.0 and above, it wont affect PC gaming.
            The worse that will happen, is that only games based on engine like frostbite 3 will have the GCN optimization available.
            all it means is higher quality console port on AMD PC/Mobile HW, and status quo for Intel/nvidia.

            • Deanjo
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]But I didn't read where they retracted their claims that Mantle is an open API.[/quote<] AMD did not specify what they meant by "open API". By the sounds of it, by what AMD has been saying they mean it is open to game developers to use (ie: not restricted to just EA uses).

            • maxxcool
            • 6 years ago

            It only makes calls to GCN registers and schedulers… so yeah closed source.

    • End User
    • 6 years ago

    Anything that gets rid of Windows is a plus in my book.

      • destroy.all.monsters
      • 6 years ago

      This. The stake needs to be driven into the heart of MS once and for all. If they hadn’t abandoned the platform and tried to twist it into something it was never meant to be this wouldn’t have needed to happen.

        • auxy
        • 6 years ago

        What … are you even talking about?

        [i<]Downvoted, but I still don't have an answer.[/i<]

          • destroy.all.monsters
          • 6 years ago

          I suspect you were downvoted because anyone paying attention to the last 18 months of Microsoft’s activity is well aware of this. MS has been undercutting the PC as a gaming platform for *years* to prop up the Xbox. This has increased over time – not lessened. At the same time MS undercuts gaming by pushing for a mobile paradigm. Further, by making clear there is no DX 12 on the horizon it creates confusion and disarray for companies that are dependent on MS – like AMD.

          With MS threatening Steam’s model by introducing a (useless to the desktop) store – as well as potentially threatening the entire 3rd party software ecosystem something has got to be done. MS is working hard to close a previously “open” platform.

          I really shouldn’t have to explain all this. I voted you down because you’re not stupid and by not acknowledging these concerns you come across as willfully ignorant.

          MS’s tactics were in-line with gamers and power users for a long time – no longer. Frankly if it causes open source OSes to come to the fore all the better. It’s vastly preferable to one company having way too much power and acting like some drunk abusive uncle.

    • Meadows
    • 6 years ago

    Is it impossible for NVidia to support Mantle?

      • diesavagenation
      • 6 years ago
        • maxxcool
        • 6 years ago

        yup… anyone old enough to remember how AWFUL the M3D ogl wrapper was? Or Rendition Vertie’s wrapper ?

        yeah.. terrible.

        • Bensam123
        • 6 years ago

        Perhaps until their hardware supports it, so next generation or perhaps the one after depending on how much needs to be changed.

        • anubis44
        • 6 years ago

        So much for NVidia’s statement that they ‘let’ AMD have the gaming consoles. If they did, it was one of the stupidest misteps in tech history. Now AMD controls gaming, one of the last areas of consumer computing that still requires higher end, higher performance CPUs/GPUs. With the gaming console wins, AMD put nVidia in ‘check’. Mantle may very well be ‘check mate’.

          • spigzone
          • 6 years ago

          +1 for that excellent observation.

          • superjawes
          • 6 years ago

          One issue there…Nvidia is actually in pretty good shape overall, while AMD is not. GeForce cards haven’t had the stuttering issues Radeons have had, they’re better in SLI over Crossfire, and they’re better in 4k applications.

          Sure, this move could put AMD in a dominant position, but Nvidia doesn’t need to spend thousands of dollars/hours to fix drivers, and with more cash available, they could probably catch up on Mantle pretty quickly if they needed to.

          Even if Mantle is a sweeping success, Nvidia has the mobility, and likely the smarts, to react effectively.

            • Spunjji
            • 6 years ago

            I agree, although part of the problem here is that a “reaction” to Mantle isn’t a great idea. Mantle only makes sense as a way to increase the simplicity and efficiency of ports from AMD console hardware to PCs. In order to compete with that nVidia will have to somehow make their cards respond appropriately to Mantle, because implementing their own competing system would just increase development overhead and thus not make any sense.

            • superjawes
            • 6 years ago

            Well I don’t mean make an Nvidia version of Mantle. I mean they can react by writing drivers that handle it without a performance degradation and giving new silicon an architecture that can run it without issue.

            If Mantle does catch on, Nvidia just needs to neutralize the performance advantages enjoyed on AMD cards.

          • WiseInvestor
          • 6 years ago

          In addition, AMD is now part of the HSA foundation. Committed to bring innovation, ease of use by using royalty free specifications and open source software.

            • spigzone
            • 6 years ago

            AMD created the HSA foundation.

          • Liron
          • 6 years ago

          They didn’t really say that they let AMD have the gaming consoles. They actually said that they -had- to let AMD have the gaming consoles because the investment in R&D would have been too great for their resources. Reading between the lines, they didn’t have enough engineers for both competing with AMD for the consoles and doing Tegra. So rather than abandoning Tegra and the entire mobile space, they did not compete with AMD for the consoles.

      • Firestarter
      • 6 years ago

      If they want to support it and be competitive with it, they would have to do that with a new GPU that basically mirrors the Mantle API spec, which boils down to basically copying the GCN architecture. I guess they might be able to support it for their current GPUs by making a wrapper, but because Mantle is pretty much made to be close to GCN hardware, they would probably have major performance problems at points where the GCN architecture is wildly different from Kepler.

        • MFergus
        • 6 years ago

        The wrapper would also destroy any of the benefits of Mantle and perform worse than DX/OpenGL. If mantle ever becomes the dominate API, Nvidia will basically be dead in the consumer gpu market.

          • nanoflower
          • 6 years ago

          Which is why I have real questions about Mantle going forward since there will be real problems with Nvidia and Intel supporting it. (Ignoring the issue of them supporting an API provided by a competitor.) Neither company is going to be able to get the same performance out of Mantle that AMD will just because of how closely tied the API is to their hardware so what incentive will they have to use it? If they have to modify their designs to get the best performance then there is a huge number of computers that won’t get that performance today or for years to come unless they get AMD GPUs.

          (Yes, I know Intel doesn’t have the best performance out their graphics but they are good enough now for many people and are only getting better with each generation.)

          • WiseInvestor
          • 6 years ago

          That is why it is VITAL important to make a bid for next gen console, have they succeeded in having won 1 next gen console, things would have been much different.

          Stop blaming AMD for what Nvidia did(or did not do).

          There are some people who would say there were no profits to be made on consoles. AMD is wasting their resource on xbox playstation etc… Look who’s laughing now…

      • BlondIndian
      • 6 years ago

      There is a balance between optimisation and compatibility . Using Mantle tilts the balance in favour of AMD(more specifically GCN cards) . Nvidia using it is possible , but unnecessary as game devs will continue making DirectX ports for PC (GCN is <<20% at the moment) . So net result will be that the few games (~10 AAA titles per year IMO ) will work with far greater performance on GCN architectures .

      This will be Vital for KAVERI to combat Intel’s IGP . Nvidia vs AMD will be less significant IMO Mantle’s advantages on high end configs will be less significant . I’m assuming this as there will be other bottlenecks like memory bandwidth , etc.

      • Bensam123
      • 6 years ago

      I don’t think AMD explicitly mentioned that Mantle is reserved for their graphics cards or processors. It’s just as likely for this to be locked to their graphics cards as processors, which people seem to gloss over and make it seem like graphics is the only thing AMD sells.

      I’m sure it’ll be just as easy for Nvidia to support Mantle as OGL unless AMD goes out of their way to hinder them. AMD may have the upper hand as they’re the ones defining the spec, but I doubt that means no one else can use it (or they’d end up with backlash for it and conseqeuently no one would adopt it). With big things like this it’s best to make it as painless as possible.

      If AMD will keep Nvidia from using Mantle, then it’ll happen in the future after everyone adopts it.

        • MFergus
        • 6 years ago

        [url<]https://twitter.com/GnrlKhalid/status/383762046031912960[/url<] It's GCN specific. Nvidia would have to use a GCN architecture to use Mantle and it's not open source either. I don't understand why so many people keep thinking it's possible for Nvidia to support Mantle like it's a high level API. The whole point of Mantle is that it's low level.

      • Sagia
      • 6 years ago

      Yup, because mantle is amd gcn low level graphic api, only gcn architecture can use it, not even R600 or R700 like 4870 or 5870. They can make the wrapper but, but i doubt it will have the same performance and might cause more problem than using OpenGL or DirectX

        • Meadows
        • 6 years ago

        If NVidia is unwilling to make a wrapper (which is entirely possible, because it’s been weeks and we have yet to see any sort of press release by NVidia on the matter), then future developers will simply have to support at least two different rendering paths. This is obvious because NVidia GPUs are — for my use — still clearly superior.

          • jihadjoe
          • 6 years ago

          Making a wrapper sort of defeats the main idea of having a low-level API.

            • Fighterpilot
            • 6 years ago

            Mantle is designed to give low level hardware access to programmers on any platform using GCN architecture.
            That means the new consoles and AMD video cards.
            NVidia will have to deal with DirectX only optimizations unless they provide developers with a low level API to access NV hardware.
            Looks like a savvy move to me by AMD.

    • ghomfom
    • 6 years ago

    HalfLife 3 is delayed, because it’ll be Linux evclusive. So folk, dust up your Linux rigs, and wlcome to HL3.

      • Concupiscence
      • 6 years ago

      AMD FX-8320, 24 gigs of DDR3-1600, and a Geforce GTX 660, running Xubuntu 13.04. I’m ready.

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      hahahaahahah … hows that horn ?

    • Goty
    • 6 years ago

    [quote<]In a worst-case scenario, non-AMD systems will end up delivering a second-rate experience, with worse performance, worse image quality, and more bugs.[/quote<] Soooo... like TWIMTBP games on non-NVIDIA hardware?

      • Rendus
      • 6 years ago

      Or like Gaming Evolved for non-AMD hardware?

        • auxy
        • 6 years ago

        I don’t understand why you’re being downvoted while he’s being upvoted. You pointed out the obvious hole in his fanboyism.

          • Chrispy_
          • 6 years ago

          TWIMTBP often included Nvidia-specific features and optimisations.

          Gaming evolved (as far as I’m aware) is still platform agnostic, and whilst I’m sure there is some AMD bias in there, it’s nothing like as blatant as TWIMTBP.

          Tomb Raider being the poster child for this example, the only issues were that Nvidia didn’t get long enough to [i<]optimise their drivers[/i<] for the game. Do you remember the days when games didn't need drivers to be fiddled with in order to get acceptable performance out of a game engine? This stupid situation is what TWIMTPB [i<]started[/i<].

            • Klimax
            • 6 years ago

            They didn’t need optimizations because entire graphics pipeline was fixed function hardware, thus there wasn’t much to do for drivers, because either DX or hardware did the job. Once you added shaders you moved to drivers optimizations.

            BTW: Fixed function pipeline fell out of favour, because it couldn’t keep up with demands.

    • Chrispy_
    • 6 years ago

    The problem is Microsoft, specifically Direct X:

    [list<] [*<]Windows sucks from a sofa-and-controller perspective [/*<][*<]The Windows license adds cost [/*<][*<]Direct X's dominance killed off OpenGL, reinforcing the monopoly and making other OSes undesirable for game devs. [/*<][*<]The XBox and XBox exclusive titles undermined PC gaming [/*<][*<]GFWL was a nightmare. IS a nightmare. KILL IT FASTER![/*<][/list<] Outside of Microsoft, sloppy and pointless DRM plagues many PC gaming experiences, but that's really only a fraction of the total experience. The biggest problem is that DX & Windows caters to the lowest common denominator, and that's pretty much the diametric opposite of pushing the envelope.

      • maxxcool
      • 6 years ago

      “”Direct X’s dominance/bribery of Devs killed OpenGL progress, and with it Linux (and Mac) as a viable gaming competitor.””

      no, the very slow to adapt chronos and linux standards killed ogl and strangled its performance. The suspender crowd opted for a slower adoption rate of new code than the windows crew who was recklessly tossing eye candy as fast as they could.

        • ludi
        • 6 years ago

        ^^ This. People were pointing out that OGL was already faltering ten years ago because the standards committee was moving at a rate somewhere between “glacial” and “continental drift.”

          • l33t-g4m3r
          • 6 years ago

          Funny, I always thought OpenGL kept up with DX pretty good. IMO, the problem was more of NV/AMD cooperating, whereas MS forced standardization with DX, so OpenGL just copied DX features. OpenGL has the potential to move faster than DX though, and I think they’ve been keeping up pretty good ever since Khronos took over.

            • jihadjoe
            • 6 years ago

            No they didn’t keep up at all.

            OpenGL 3.3’s target was DX10.
            OpenGL 4.0’s goal was basically to get back to feature parity with DX11.
            Both were released simultaneously on March 2010.

            DX10 was available from 2007, DX11 from 2008.

            That’s 3 years of catching up they had to do.

            • maxxcool
            • 6 years ago

            Many thoughts. But the #1 is feature development and product acceleration by committee is what is hurting them.

            ad to that OGL is primarily a professional API that also works for gaming and you have a slower dev cycle that tends to be more conservative.

          • maxxcool
          • 6 years ago

          “continental drift” <- lol… nice, I spewed pepsi on my work keyboard 😉

      • auxy
      • 6 years ago

      I like you Chrispy_, but maxxcool is right — OpenGL killed OpenGL, not Microsoft. I agree with you on a lot of points, but while moving away from Windows is in theory a good move, moving toward Linux and FOSS is a horrible, horrible idea. The failure of OpenGL itself (in the market) serves to prove the point.

        • Chrispy_
        • 6 years ago

        Fair enough. I was just a non-technical gamer back then frustrated that I had to run Windows to game when all my university work demanded Linux, because OpenGL sucked.

        I didn’t really care how it happened, I just wanted OpenGL to not suck 😉

          • maxxcool
          • 6 years ago

          you and me both brother 😉 but are you old enough to remember to make sure the copy of “heretic” you bought was actually for ‘pc’ and not o/s2 warp …. I loved my friends buying me games but i will be damned every birthday I ended up with a os2 only copy of something 😛

          back on topic, back then OGL *WAS VASTLY* superior. When you saw your card was listed as support for ogl 1.x you *knew* it would work unlike dx3 where it might work or might have killed your kittens with fire.

          OGL just got to complacent and the eggheads at ms got overly aggressive and targeted the “durp it ‘r’ workx crowd.” screaming “we arz teh awesome wooootttt!”

          So they won, but is it was a win ala~ vhs vs betamax.

        • MarioJP
        • 6 years ago

        OpenGL had or has a chance. Why is it any Open GL games that i have seen are never as top notch quality of DX variant. GTA 5 proves that point and its about to be ported to PC. My biggest concern is those top notch games like BF4 and GTA5 will never see the light on Linux because Open GL just isn’t suited for high end gaming. From what i have seen anyways.

      • Klimax
      • 6 years ago

      You might want recheck history a bit:
      [url<]http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/07/22/the-evolution-of-direct3d/[/url<] And later, how long it took Khronos to get new standard? DirectX won on technical merits... As for DRM, I disagree. It was tolerable. What was harmful and bad were Starforce and Securom. (later versions) Those were nightmares. (Anybody remembers SATA vs. Starforce on XP?)

      • kvndoom
      • 6 years ago

      You beat me to it… But yes, MS is the #1 enemy of PC gaming. Ironic, since game compatibility is one of the biggest things that gave Windows an edge over other operating systems, right up there with MS Office.

    • jjj
    • 6 years ago

    SteamOS is not part of the equation ,it offers next to nothing for a big price tag.There is no reason for it to take off.
    Besides, how does trying to sell a livingroom x86 PC makes any sense when ARM gaming is taking over? The whole thing is just moronic.

      • LastQuestion
      • 6 years ago

      Aside from it being a free OS dedicated to gaming with improved performance over DirectX on windows?

      A gaming PC will no longer requiring a Windows license. If I want the DX11.1 optimization in BF4 I’d have to buy W8, even though I own W7. OpenGL updates will be free…

      Valve has gone over improved performance over windows. I find myself wondering, will a 770 on SteamOS out-perform a 780 on Windows? Depending on how substantial the improvement is a Steambox will cost $100-300 less than the Windows equivalent in performance.

        • maxxcool
        • 6 years ago

        Linux has -0- advantage over windows gaming.

          • BlondIndian
          • 6 years ago

          You have convinced me deeply with your profound arguements . Now I too shall go forth and spew the glory of M$ over the vast interwebs that others too may see the light and attain salvation !

          • Goofus Maximus
          • 6 years ago

          If you start from the current position, you could be right, though licensing fees for SDKs are not a trivial consideration.

          However, with Valve behind this, and hardware vendors paying attention to their Linux drivers in cooperation with Valve, I don’t consider this will remain true in the future.

          I mean really! The Playstation 4 is already running on an optimized version of BSD, which is arguably even less of a gaming platform than Linux.

          My prediction is, if the market flows to the popular gaming platform, and that platform is on Linux, then the hardware manufacturers will pay attention to their Linux drivers, and your point is moot even if it’s true, since popularity trumps advantage when selling hardware.

          Even if Steambox does nothing more than wake Microsoft up over their recent choices with regard to PC gaming, I will consider this a win for us…

          • LastQuestion
          • 6 years ago

          SteamOS is a Linux distro, specifically optimized for gaming. This is something Windows can never do.

          However, since the performance of those optimizations is still, at best, conjecture I’ll state, once again, that DX 11.1 requires a W8 license whereas OpenGL updates are free. Not only is OpenGL free, but an OS that is built specifically to capitalize on the API will also be free.

      • wizpig64
      • 6 years ago

      That’s a big leap to assume that ARM will be taking over. Microsoft tried fostering it with windows RT but that failed spectacularly. Intel is getting x86 into smaller places like android phones and tablets with what sound like great preliminary results.

      • C-A_99
      • 6 years ago

      “SteamOS is not part of the equation ,it offers next to nothing for a big price tag.”

      How does FOSS get a price tag?

        • B.A.Frayd
        • 6 years ago

        Because a developer will have to spend time and money to code for it on top of the coding they are already doing.

        Many people here have lost track of the most important factor in this whole equation:

        Gaming is a for-profit BUSINESS.

          • indeego
          • 6 years ago

          Valve, one of the biggest distributors of gaming on the planet, seems to think it a serious worthwhile $$$ sink. They are not going into this half-ass. If Valve supports it, you bet your ass there are developers lining up.

          • BlondIndian
          • 6 years ago

          Having a business with only one supplier and dependant on one distributor of products does not make good BUSINESS SENSE !

            • Goofus Maximus
            • 6 years ago

            I don’t understand your point. SteamOS will be free software, and free for hardware makers to license. You will have many suppliers of hardware, and can even supply the hardware yourself. The software is open source, which means that you will be able to get it from anywhere there is a geek willing to compile it and link to it, or even compile it, and even MODIFY it, yourself.

            I’m sure Apple’s iphone doesn’t make good business sense to you by those criteria, in any case, so I do not [s<]thing[/s<]think your sentence means what you think your sentence means, to quote from Princess Bride...

      • superjawes
      • 6 years ago

      First off, SteamOS =/= Steam Machines. The OS is free.
      Secondly, there have been no price announcements for Steam Machines.
      Also, there’s been no benchmarks to compare to consoles, so there’s no value perspective yet.

      • alphadogg
      • 6 years ago

      If the core of the OS is linux, and given linux is ARM-friendly, wouldn’t your last knee-jerk complaint be moot?

      • psyph3r
      • 6 years ago

      Speak for yourself, some of us are actual gamers that use their PCs. There is no way I would be happy with an arm Gaming PC, especially in the living room.

      • GENiEBEN
      • 6 years ago

      Wake me up when you will be able to play cpu intensive games like Civ or BF on ARM-spec hardware.

    • nafhan
    • 6 years ago

    I think it’s not as bad as it sounds. SteamOS and PS4 are both Unix derived OS’s rendering with OpenGL, while Windows and XB1 are both Windows/Direct3D based. All four platforms can potentially use Mantle. With the PS4 and XB1 will definitely making use of it.

    Further this article doesn’t even touch on the biggest (if not the most lucrative) gaming market: mobile. The major platforms there are all Unix derived/OpenGL/non-x86.

    I think fragmentation in gaming gets developers to try new things by allowing niche markets to develop; while this makes playing everything that comes out more difficult, it also allows for experimentation and reduces stagnation in gameplay.

      • Narishma
      • 6 years ago

      PS4 doesn’t use OpenGL.

        • auxy
        • 6 years ago

        This misconception is really viral, and just like a virus, really toxic. I wish it would die.

        • ish718
        • 6 years ago

        Yup. PS4 has two custom APIs, one is a low level API and the other is a high level “wrapper API” to simplify development.

        • nafhan
        • 6 years ago

        From what I’ve read, PSGL = OpenGL ES with some PS specific extensions. I could be wrong, but that’s probably close enough to OpenGL for the purposes of this discussion.

          • MFergus
          • 6 years ago

          It’s based on OpenGL and CG, it’s a mix of both. It’s not standard OpenGL, it’s basically its own unique API. Besides it wasn’t the dominant API of the PS3 and whatever OpenGL is on the PS4 prob won’t either so it makes more sense to say PS3/PS4 is libgcm imo. Xbox isn’t exactly like the standard Direct3d either, both consoles use lower level API’s that aren’t really comparable to the standard API’s on standard PC’s.

    • superjawes
    • 6 years ago

    I don’t think SteamOS fragments the PC market. I think it has the capability of reducing/merging the console market.

    The major downfall to the upcoming consoles is that they will not have native support for their old libaries. SteamOS might not have 100% Steam coverage, but it still opens the door to a much bigger marketplace, and the open source nature could result in 3rd party enhancements to add more games to SteamOS for Valve.

    The big questions we need answered right now are: “How much will a typical Steam Machine cost? And what will there performance be compared to the consoles?” If they are priced close enough to a PS4/XBOne and outperform both, that will bring people into the StemOS/PC space, strengthening PC instead.

      • sunner
      • 6 years ago

      well spoken!
      ……. “I don’t think SteamOS fragments the PC market. I think it has the capability of reducing/merging the console market…….”

      In fact, your entire #5 is worth a thoughtful read.

    • ssidbroadcast
    • 6 years ago

    I think what everyone is missing about Mantle is that no Mantle-API games will [i<]ever[/i<] be available on Steam or the Steam OS. They'll only be available on Windows via Origin. Because, you know, [i<]EA[/i<]. Edit: Which is why I predict Mantle-however well-intentioned or good performing--is DOA. It''ll be only on Origin. Edit2: Guys, maybe this came across as an anti-AMD fanboyish post. I didn't mean it to be like that. I personally *love* the idea of a hardware-specific API because back in the day [i<]Glide[/i<] was awesome and WAY faster than anything else out there. I want Mantle to do well, seriously. I just think politics are going to limit this to Windows only and EA games only, which in my mind is a recipe for little adoption.

      • diesavagenation
      • 6 years ago
        • ssidbroadcast
        • 6 years ago

        Because EA is in direct competition with Valve, and EA is a primary stakeholder in Mantle.

          • diesavagenation
          • 6 years ago
            • clone
            • 6 years ago

            mantle is an open API, I’m not sure their is much coin if any involved in using it….. I suspect it’s most likely free, not due to any kind of charity but because it’s adoption is a benefit for AMD.

          • superjawes
          • 6 years ago

          But SteamOS has the potential to expand EA’s market, and I doubt EA will make their games Mantle-exclusive…that would only limit the number of machines their games would run on.

          • Bensam123
          • 6 years ago

          Wow…

        • l33t-g4m3r
        • 6 years ago

        Guys, you’re not getting it. SS’s right. EA pulled all their new games off steam, so therefore BF4 will NOT run on the steambox. This has nothing to do with mantle on linux, or bf4, but EA not selling games through steam.

        Basically, the only way BF4 will run on linux is if EA ports BOTH origin and BF4 to linux.

        I didn’t realize this until ssid mentioned it, but he’s 100% correct. EA won’t sell games over steam, and I’d be very surprised if they made an exception for the steambox.

          • superjawes
          • 6 years ago

          But SteamOS is supposedly open source. EA pulled their new games off Steam because they have Origin, meaning that EA can (and should, really) use their own service and collect all the revenue. Not to mention that since Origin competes with Steam, they need to make sure that the case for Origin is as strong as possible, which is hard to do if you can get their biggest games on Steam.

          As long as SteamOS is open source, EA can port Origin to it along with their new games, ensuring maximum market coverage. That isn’t guaranteed, but they would still have the kind of control over their IP as they do with Windows.

          • ssidbroadcast
          • 6 years ago

          Hey, thanks man. I wasn’t intending to get a lot of downvotes on my post. I guess I’m just being a wet blanket?

          If you downvoters listen to the podcast Scott hints as much, saying that Mantle is very “politically” interesting.

          For those saying Mantle API will be used on Steam OS I have another (although less troubling than EA) political obstacle: nVidia. nVidia has been working *very* closely with Valve on the Steam OS (case in point: all of the beta machines are on nVidia hardware). I’m not sure how many co-marketing dollars nVidia will be spending on Steam OS but I know the man-hours of hardware and system software engineers isn’t cheap. I’m thinking nVidia is going to go whole-hog on Steam OS and while [i<]of course[/i<] AMD/ATi hardware will be supported on Steam OS, I doubt that nVidia will sit and watch Mantle API games get ported to Steam OS that would effectively lock out nVidia hardware on that platform.

      • clone
      • 6 years ago

      you do realize Mantle is PS4 and Xbox One’s low level API’s ported to PC right? given all games for PS4 and Xbox One will use Mantle by default with the option for it to be easily ported to PC, calling it DOA might be premature.

      if Mantle is solid and worthwhile to use why would any developer bother with doing far more extensive work porting their app’s to DX?

      and in the end why can’t Mantle be compatible with Linux?

      • LastQuestion
      • 6 years ago

      Ya, there’s this thing about SteamOS, it being Linux. The entire point of Valve’s pursuit of gaming on Linux was and is to have an open gaming platform to drive innovation and competition. This means insuring competitors can include their own clients to run natively on SteamOS as well as Steam does.

        • ssidbroadcast
        • 6 years ago

        Eh… I highly doubt EA will bother to make an Origin client for Steam OS, or that Valve would allow it.

      • anubis44
      • 6 years ago

      Mantle is an AMD API, much like glide was a 3dfx API. It can exist on any platform, like OpenGL. It will simply make porting games between platforms easier and make games run faster on AMD graphics chips. That’s all. Of course Mantle can and will run on Steam, just like Direct X or OpenGL does now. The only thing would be if nVidia bought out Steam or paid Steam enough money not to support Mantle. Of course, if that happened, it would seriously hurt Steam’s appeal for a huge number of potential Steam gamers.

      I myself buy games and run them under Steam right now, and I would seriously consider running the Linux Steam OS instead of Windows on my main gaming rig if it works with Mantle and my AMD graphics card, but I would ditch Steam in heartbeat if it went nVidia exclusive, or didn’t support Mantle.

      • sschaem
      • 6 years ago

      Mantle is not an EA API

      Dice developers (like countless others) wanted for years a modern and efficient API for cross platform console/PC development. AMD finally saw the opportunity becoming possible and gave the finger to MS and did it.

      This evolution as no relation to the Origin store.

      BTW, I hope valve loose some steam with their store.

      Its 100% controled by one man, a multi billion power hungry man that developed a walled garden that only he control and set prices. Valve alse doen’t let many game published because they dont like them, etc..

      So any competition to steam is very positive news. Origin might be inferior technically, but its a welcom break from Valve near monopolistic control.

      If people are pissed at Mantle because its an open standard managed by one company… do you guys have a steam account ?… think about it. Who got the balls in a vice here ?

        • ssidbroadcast
        • 6 years ago

        The balls in a wise…

      • WiseInvestor
      • 6 years ago

      “Mantle is truly a collaboration and I’ll tell you [DICE’s Johan Andersson] was at the forefront of that at the very beginning. A lot of the feedback on the development of Mantle came from him. We also solicited feedback from [b<]a lot of other partners that we haven’t announced yet.[/b<] At this stage, Battlefield 4 and FrostBite 3 are the closest to deliver something today. I think, as I mentioned before, the goal would be to provide the spec and SDK publicly,” said Mr. Corpus.

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