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There are only really 3 small practical cars that are fun to drive--the Mazda 3, the Golf, and the Focus. The Mazda 3 is the only one of those 3 that is reliable. Yes, the non-skyactiv engines don't get great gas mileage, but neither do the non-diesel Golf or the Focus. Just do yourself a favor and test drive a 2012-2013 Mazda 3 before making your final decision.

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AS for reliability concerns. they do exist. But so does a aftermarket ''gold'' level warranty that will cover even the window motors that die randomly.

Sorry, no way in hell would I ever put the Ford Focus on the list as a "practical and fun to drive". Granted he Focus moved up in the world with the introduction of the feista but it is still a "SBOV" as my dad used to call them... A "**** box of value". Nothing fun about that car, although I hear that the the UK gets a completely different version of the focus that is considered top notch.

Want a damn good fun car to drive... pickup on a pre 2011ish Subaru Impreza Wagon "Outback" when that was a package. This was the 2.5l engines which now like in my 2013 are a 2.0 standard. Once you drive a Subaru 4 cylinder and then try a Ford or Mazda you will want to cry. I swore I'd never own a 4 banger as they just never felt smooth or refined. Even my entry Impreza feels like a refined engine compared to all of the other 4 cylinders I've driven. The only other engine that was a fair bit more smooth was the Audi A4.... duh it is about another 15 grand starting for an A4.

The only thing in the Mazda lineup I'd consider is the CX-5 if that is your kinda vehicle.

Welch wrote:

Sorry, no way in hell would I ever put the Ford Focus on the list as a "practical and fun to drive". Granted he Focus moved up in the world with the introduction of the feista but it is still a "SBOV" as my dad used to call them... A "**** box of value". Nothing fun about that car, although I hear that the the UK gets a completely different version of the focus that is considered top notch.

Want a damn good fun car to drive... pickup on a pre 2011ish Subaru Impreza Wagon "Outback" when that was a package. This was the 2.5l engines which now like in my 2013 are a 2.0 standard. Once you drive a Subaru 4 cylinder and then try a Ford or Mazda you will want to cry. I swore I'd never own a 4 banger as they just never felt smooth or refined. Even my entry Impreza feels like a refined engine compared to all of the other 4 cylinders I've driven. The only other engine that was a fair bit more smooth was the Audi A4.... duh it is about another 15 grand starting for an A4.

The only thing in the Mazda lineup I'd consider is the CX-5 if that is your kinda vehicle.

Have you driven the current generation of Focus?

Also, suggesting the CX-3 to someone who found the Mazda3 boring... are you kidding?

In any case, the 2000-2007 Focus in the US is essentially the same car as the 1999-2004 (using US model years) European Focus, but different powertrains in some models, and I wouldn't be surprised if the suspension was Americanized (read: made boring) in lower trims. Then again, the SVT suspension is a thing... The 2008-2010 US Focus shared the platform, but was rather different.

The 2005-2010 European Focus shares the platform with the 2004-2013 Mazda3, 2004.5-2012 Volvo S40/V50, 2006-2013 Volvo C70, and 2007-2013 Volvo C30.

The 2011+ Focus is a world car again, should be the same basic car everywhere (but with different powertrains of course, and probably different suspension settings by country (read: Americanization making it boring)). But, the PowerShift dry dual clutch automatic is... problematic.

The problem is that finding something relatively normal FWD 5-door that behaves like an RSX and is cheap to run likely requires modding it. RWD, you might find something, but you're going to be pushed into luxury makes if you want 4/5 doors, and the costs that are involved there.

Want a damn good fun car to drive... pickup on a pre 2011ish Subaru Impreza Wagon "Outback" when that was a package.

Subarus are fun to drive, amazingly enough. The biggest thing is they have equal length CV shafts which eliminates torque steer. FWD cars with unequal length CV shafts jump to one side of the other, usually right, under acceleration, and Subarus don't do that. It really is a revelation.

They also have the weird AWD cornering characteristic where they understeer then snap into oversteer, which is a little scary until you're used to it. It's just an AWD characteristic.

bhtooefr wrote:

The problem is that finding something relatively normal FWD 5-door that behaves like an RSX and is cheap to run likely requires modding it. RWD, you might find something, but you're going to be pushed into luxury makes if you want 4/5 doors, and the costs that are involved there.

The closest thing to the RSX is the Subaru Impreza or WRX. The next closest is the Honda Civic Si, which is what the RSX was based off of anyway. As for RWD, the closest is the Cadillac ATS, BMW 2-series, or the original BMW 1-series. There is also the BMW 3-series wagon, but it's bigger then the 2 or ATS.

BMWs have the same problems VW have. As my mechanic friend used to say when people brought up buying a BMW, "Don't do it."

Kind of surprised not to see more Subaru love in this thread, given what OP is looking for, but then I remembered the "$20k" threshold. Hard to do because they hold their value so well. Not 100% trouble-free across the line but not unreasonably expensive to maintain and repair the way German cars are in North America. I will say this though: I got my '02 Celica GT-S at a Subaru dealer, because the previous owner unexpectedly had twins. If the budget can be stretched just a bit...

And, a note on the Kia: the last two Hyundai-group rentals I had in the past year were feature-packed and solidly built, but the chassis tended to wander a bit at highway speeds - I was constantly making little corrections. And I'm still noticing, even after the major improvements Hyundai started making in the early-to-mid-00s, that once the 10-year warranty expires, they seem to just disappear from the road, which means they're not reliable and valuable enough to keep running.

Flatland_Spider wrote:

BMWs have the same problems VW have. As my mechanic friend used to say when people brought up buying a BMW, "Don't do it."

Depends on the year and model too. My circle of friends have decent records of 328s, 330s, and 335s. I got a sample of one where an X3 was not so hot.

There isn't anything "family friendly" about a WRX or a GTI or a BRZ or a Si. They're all very fun and sporty, but it sounds like the OP is moving from his single guy phase to his married phase and then onto his fatherhood phase. The Impreza is the nicest small sedan made, but there isn't anything fun about driving it, other than in the snow. Again, if the OP wants something that is cheap, practical, and family friendly, the 3, Golf, and Focus are the only ones that have a fun factor to them and probably won't make the OP try to kill himself when he has to drive them.

What's not "family friendly" about a WRX (with an FA20, plenty of low end torque around town) or a 4 door SI (...though wouldnt fit his requirements due to MT only)

cjcerny wrote:

There isn't anything "family friendly" about a WRX or a GTI or a BRZ or a Si.

Sure the BRZ isn't that family friendly, however the other 3 are.

The GTI is middle aged. It's stately, and the most boring thing in the sporty subcompact segment.

The WRX is not that small, and it can be had in 5-door or 4-door configurations. The OP would not sacrifice anything with a WRX except rubber and dead dino juice.

The Si is a Honda Civic except faster. 4-door configurations are quite common, and they aren't as nuts as people think. The upcoming Civic Type-R should be bonzai nuts (:D), but the Si is tame.

IMO the problem with WRX Subies is the previous owner factor. Here in the NW a used WRX is almost always previously wrecked, abused to all hell or driven by 18yr old-wannabe jack-holes..

Getting a Quality WRX in a region with Subie tuner shops and a college campus is nigh impossible.

Edit and as a new father ... subies are too loud.

The Legacy 2.5GT was sold through 2012, and the previous-owner demographic tends to be a bit more restrained for that model.

ludi wrote:

The Legacy 2.5GT was sold through 2012, and the previous-owner demographic tends to be a bit more restrained for that model.

However, there were less than 2,000 sold in its 3-year run and it's manual-only (136,800 miles on my 2010 LGT).

Yep I've driven my sisters 2012 Focus and it was flat out boring.

I drive a stock Impreza Sport (slightly tuned suspension is about it and different seats) and has been the most fun car in its class for me to drive. It handles great with electrical steering, I feel they got the characteristics perfect on it.

As far as space for family it can fit my kids Foomf car seat (first or second largest on market). With it being the 5 door (hatchback) the seats in the rear fold down and provided the largest room in class for storage and even overshadows some cars in the next class.

Nothing loud about the car externally, unless your refering to people with WRX and STi subarus or people who put on loud glass packs. I agree, finding a WRX that hasnt been driven hard by a teenager, young military guy or just all around jackass can be difficult.

I havent looked into what all quick things I can do to make my Impreza have a bit more ummmphhh. In that price range and use as a new dad it would be hard to get into the Fun and Practical car of your dreams. The subbie just meets that so well... granted the Impreza after the switch to the 2.0l is more practical than it was before and slightly less fun than its 2.5l and shorter rally precursor.

Another vote for the 2.5 GT if you can manage to find one and it fits the bill

Flying Fox wrote:

Flatland_Spider wrote:

BMWs have the same problems VW have. As my mechanic friend used to say when people brought up buying a BMW, "Don't do it."

Depends on the year and model too. My circle of friends have decent records of 328s, 330s, and 335s. I got a sample of one where an X3 was not so hot.

The volume sellers (standard 3-series and 5-seres) are rock solid. I've had both E90 and E60 BMW's. Not a single fault on them. I would say this is typical of those models, they are extremely well developed and tested.

Buy the big volume sellers, don't buy a first year model and check that you're not buying a repaired car. You'll do fine.

BMW is at least two divisions above VW in terms of quality. If you think otherwise you're delusional and everyone in Germany would be buying VW's, not BMW's.

VW is the IKEA of cars, they're great value and look and feel good but are unlikely to hold up well over the long run. In Germany you buy VW's as company cars and keep them for 1-3 years, then the warranty is expired and VW couldn't care less.

TwoEars wrote:

VW is the IKEA of cars, they're great value and look and feel good but are unlikely to hold up well over the long run. In Germany you buy VW's as company cars and keep them for 1-3 years, then the warranty is expired and VW couldn't care less.

See that's the thing everyone in the car forums I hang out in says about BMW. Modern BMWs are built to be leased. Lease them for 4 years, have the dealer service the car for free during that time, and then turn it back in for a new one.

They say people are nuts for owning VeeDubs too, but they get less flack since they've stay truer to their roots. Unlike BMW who has watered down the product in recent years.

I've looked at Subaru for a a bit as I continue to do long-term planning for replacement of my Civic (probably in the next two years), and I looked when looking for a car for my wife.

The issue was that Subaru used is like buying an Apple computer used. Owners would say the depreciation is excellent. I, on the other hand, would say that the vehicles are highly over-valued in the used market. I saw Subarus with 100k miles routinely being priced at ten grand or more, and went, "Ummm...I can buy a much newer (insert other decent car here) for that. It meant to me that if one is going to buy a Subaru, one might as well buy new, because they don't depreciate enough to make the used price one I'd be willing to pay.

The Scion FR-S/Subaru BR-Z just aren't practical for a family. For an effort by Toyota and Subaru, they have an abysmal reliability record, ranging from fit/finish issues, to odd chirpy fuel pumps to other complaints that even owners/lovers of the car admit some work needs to be done to improve the vehicle. They're also unlikely to be as good of a winter choice as something fun-to-drive but front-wheel-drive, though I'd be seriously interested if not for the checkered ratings (we have no kids, and there is an automatic transmission option - I like sticks, but my wife needs to be able to drive it in an emergency without me having to have a clutch rebuilt).

IMO, leasing is a sucker bet unless you're a company that can get a tax write-off from it, or work in a specific field (realty, certain types of sales) where image is important (and again, you can probably get a tax break somehow). For the average person, you pay a lot for something you won't own, unless you wish to pay more at the end to buy out a vehicle and you're going to lose money.

P.S. When I talked about Toyotas and fun earlier, I mentioned the Celica and Supra as being the last ones that were. I forgot the MR2. I think Toyota let its soul die though in the name of profiting from the sales of conservative buyers, which is sad. Of course, when looking for the wife, I got a used 2008 Pontiac Vibe (which is the Toyota Matrix platform) because I knew it would last, and so far, it has really held up.

TwoEars wrote:

VW is the IKEA of cars, they're great value and look and feel good but are unlikely to hold up well over the long run. In Germany you buy VW's as company cars and keep them for 1-3 years, then the warranty is expired and VW couldn't care less.

Totally off-topic: my IKEA Galant desk and Expedit shelf disagree with you on the reliability bit.

Flying Fox wrote:

TwoEars wrote:

VW is the IKEA of cars, they're great value and look and feel good but are unlikely to hold up well over the long run. In Germany you buy VW's as company cars and keep them for 1-3 years, then the warranty is expired and VW couldn't care less.

Totally off-topic: my IKEA Galant desk and Expedit shelf disagree with you on the reliability bit.

Our IKEA CD racks and media shelves (both floor-standing and wall mounted) are still holding up fine too, some 10 years on. It really depends on the item. Our IKEA futon is a little dodgy, but the price was right so I'm not really complaining.

Yeah, sorry. Maybe I got a little carried away. IKEA does make some really good products. VW too for that matter.

I just get a little irritated when someone think that BMW and VW are equal in quality - lol.

I have quite a lot of experience with cars and the car industry and my experience has been that BMW are the most well built european cars.

This is my reliability ranking: [All Japanese cars > BMW > Porsche = Mercedes > VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat, Opel > All french and italian cars]

But like always buy the volume sellers and don't buy a first year model. And also don't buy a car with lots of fancy extras like swirling xenon headlights, massaging chairs, remote start, panorama sunroof, active suspension etc etc. Just K.I.S.S.

BMW have really lost their "ultimate driving machine" mojo in the past couple of decades. My cousin and his wife owned a BMW X5 that was quite unreliable. It was expensive to repair and it didn't ride, handle or brake as well as a less expensive Acura MDX, either. For that matter, the BMW X5 didn't ride or handle as well as the minivan with which they replaced it.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

BMW have really lost their "ultimate driving machine" mojo in the past couple of decades. My cousin and his wife owned a BMW X5 that was quite unreliable. It was expensive to repair and it didn't ride, handle or brake as well as a less expensive Acura MDX, either. For that matter, the BMW X5 didn't ride or handle as well as the minivan with which they replaced it.

Which is why I recommended to buy the big volume sellers, buy the standard 3-series and 5-series. Don't buy the X-series, 6-series or 7-series if you want reliability in the long run.

But I agree - if you want reliability over all else buy a Japanese (I should say Asian) car. Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Subaru.... they are all excellent and the most reliable cars around.

But not many of those japanese cars are any fun to drive and that's where BMW enters the picture.

And I will agree with you that BMW 3-series and 5-series have become "softer" in later years, they are more luxorious rather than sporty. But pick the right model. Let's say the BMW E90 330i with manual gearbox... I owned one and that thing was a disguised sports car.

The newest model 3-series, the F30, has 4-cylinder engines and turbos. Only the biggest engine (before the M model) gets a straight six (which still has turbos). I think that's a real shame but I guess it has to do with emissions.

But here's a E90 335i around the nurburgring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3VRsWeWJ2A

Don't tell me that's not one hell of a family saloon!

Don't count out the Mitsubishi Lancer. Mitsubishi's are great cars & the Lancers have great little engines in them. Not to mention the 10 year powertrain warranty is great too.

LoneWolf15 wrote:

The Scion FR-S/Subaru BR-Z just aren't practical for a family. For an effort by Toyota and Subaru, they have an abysmal reliability record, ranging from fit/finish issues, to odd chirpy fuel pumps to other complaints that even owners/lovers of the car admit some work needs to be done to improve the vehicle.

Oh come now. A fuel pump that's chirpy at idle, that you can get the dealer to fix for you for free, does not in my mind equal an "abysmal reliability record." There are plenty of websites out there who have bought one of the Twins as a long term test car, and while they have complaints, reliability hasn't been one of them.

I am 2.5 years, 30,000 miles, and three track days into my stock BRZ. Still haven't spent money on the car outside of regular service.

The family aspect is a completely separate discussion, and I think we can all agree it doesn't end favorably for this car.

If you want a family sedan that still lets you enjoy driving it, the second-best-selling car in the U.S. may be the one for you.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... -up-review
A lightly-used 9th generation will set you back under $20K, which is just a slight discount from the $25½K MSRP of a new one.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

If you want a family sedan that still lets you enjoy driving it, the second-best-selling car in the U.S. may be the one for you.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... -up-review
A lightly-used 9th generation will set you back under $20K, which is just a slight discount from the $25½K MSRP of a new one.

OP mentioned he wanted an automatic, which would mean a CVT on this car. They're not as terrible as they were a few years ago, but not in the same league as a DSG.

The maintenance will be much better than the GTI, but you'd be giving up a large fraction of the fun factor.

Source: I've driven my girlfriend's blue 2013 Sport up and down Hwy 1 in CA.

Does hers have the CVT? I found it to be surprisingly tolerable on a test drive. My V6 coupe has the conventional 6-speed automatic transmission.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

Does hers have the CVT? I found it to be surprisingly tolerable on a test drive. My V6 coupe has the conventional 6-speed automatic transmission.

Yup, it's been tolerable whenever I've driven it too. I do think you lose something intangible without the distinct shove and sound of a cog change, it seems less involving, and by extension less 'sporty.'

You would be within your rights to reply with:

There's nothing wrong with opinions based on actual personal experiences.

The OP is looking for an automatic transmission. Manual transmissions are rapidly going the way of the rotary dial telephone.