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Captain Ned wrote:

The real miscalculation out of Wolfsburg was the expectation that EPA and CARB would show the same deference to VW (and its employment levels) shown by German regulators.  They figured on 4 months between discovery of the issue and public announcement by EPA/CARB.  They got 30 minutes.

Germany has gotten accustomed to running roughshod over other European countries' authorities, as if they're some kind of colonialist overlord, and then having the gall to spin yards about "hard working Germans as opposed to lazy Italians/Greeks/French/Spaniards/Irish/whomever" (check the OECD figures on median working hours for Spaniards and Greeks compared to Germans ; shockingly, if you've bought into the German morality fairy tale, they work far more hours, not fewer : https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS).

Germany is actually refusing to extradite high ranking Siemens officials, implicated in bribery of state actors and ministers, and giving them immunity in Berlin.

We're talking about huge scandals worth billions (yes, that's billions) of commissions and millions of kickbacks, and involving government level actors in collusion with German industry officials. Officially indicted executives by other European countries... living the life in Berlin. The VW scandal is small change in comparison, but they didn't figure that EPA is not beholden to German interests, as the European corporate elites are.

They probably thought American authorities would give them the same deference ; glad to see they were mistaken.

superjawes wrote:

And Glorious snuck in with basically the same thinking:

I confess, I cheated: I didn't even read the article first.

I just vaguely remembered the other thing, because that conclusion to the Engineer's saga pretty much guaranteed the eventual beginning of this one. The title of the NYT article made it click.

superjawes wrote:

They might even be able to use said engineer's testimony.

That testimony is basically going to be their case.

Nailing the executives is always hard in this sort of thing, precisely because of the (rightful) fears JBI expressed: You need solidly prove mens rea, someone with a guilty mind, in the upper ranks of the company.

The Feds will spend a lot of time of laying out the timeline and all the deceptions and so forth, that's given, tons of work, lots of effort, and yes, at the end VW is clearly in "deep doo-doo". Multiple bridges across difficult terrain will have been established, but that last one, the bridge known as mens rea, is always one bridge too far.

Because, sure, someone did something wrong, and probably not just the engineer(s). But "someone" isn't on trial, it's a particular executive who we need to individually prove should bear criminal culpability: Did they actually know? Did they actually want this?

Which is difficult, because executives are usually rather good at concealing blame/failure for professional and civil reasons, which makes developing a criminal case exceedingly difficult. Defeat is an orphan, and criminal complicity is like an orphan with no name or language.

All you need is that one great witness who credibly says, yes, they know, and here's how. They can be hard to find, but they are the key.

Engineers tend to make great witnesses, which is the reason why they should never take the stand in their own defense.

tanker27 wrote:

So it begins......
http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/busin ... share&_r=1

Good riddance. Given that exec's history, positions, and false testimony made on this subject over the years he not only staunchly deserves it but it sounds like they have a pretty damning case already against him. 

Glorious wrote:

That testimony is basically going to be their case.

Nailing the executives is always hard in this sort of thing, precisely because of the (rightful) fears JBI expressed: You need solidly prove mens rea, someone with a guilty mind, in the upper ranks of the company.

Part of me feels there was a Wall Street style of set up going on here. Remember when the feds wired Charlie Sheen's character, Bud, to nail Gordon Gekko. Or at least that's how i'd like it to go down.

Next up for the Oscars in 2019, VW, How we duped America.

tanker27 wrote:

Part of me feels there was a Wall Street style of set up going on here. Remember when the feds wired Charlie Sheen's character, Bud, to nail Gordon Gekko. Or at least that's how i'd like it to go down

First to deal always gets the best deal.

Captain Ned wrote:

First to deal always gets the best deal.

Like Andy Fastow, who should have been lifed for Enron but barely served 5 years.

They needed him to get the others.

Shame.

"All the cool kids are doing it!"

I've heard that it's basically impossible for a diesel engine to meet US emissions requirements for a personal vehicle so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the scandal grows to include a bunch of others.

NovusBogus wrote:

I've heard that it's basically impossible for a diesel engine to meet US emissions requirements for a personal vehicle so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the scandal grows to include a bunch of others.

As long as it uses urea injection (Blu-Tec), it works.

Getting diesel locomotives to meet emissions standards is apparently pretty tough too.

Captain Ned wrote:

NovusBogus wrote:

I've heard that it's basically impossible for a diesel engine to meet US emissions requirements for a personal vehicle so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the scandal grows to include a bunch of others.

As long as it uses urea injection (Blu-Tec), it works.

Sounds like the solution is a mechanism to collect piss from the driver and inject it into the engine...

just brew it! wrote:

Sounds like the solution is a mechanism to collect piss from the driver and inject it into the engine...

There are parts of high school I really don't want to be cajoled into remembering. This is a case of bitrot being a Good Thing^TM.

Captain Ned wrote:

NovusBogus wrote:

I've heard that it's basically impossible for a diesel engine to meet US emissions requirements for a personal vehicle so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the scandal grows to include a bunch of others.

As long as it uses urea injection (Blu-Tec), it works.

This. Urea injection works, but the car carries a finite supply and it needs to be replenished at semi-regular intervals depending on how much you drive your car (basically, when you take it in for regular service). It's more expensive and more complicated than the "Clean Diesel" technology that VW was touting - of course, it also actually does its job instead of blowing smoke.

just brew it! wrote:

"All the cool kids are doing it!"

This is what bothers me from the prosecution angle.

-we've got umpteen counts (probably quite a lot of it with conspiracy charges) of this on you so you are looking at 120 years with good time. The shear scope of Federal prosecution laws (and particularly their breadth), seems to make almost ANYTHING illegal. It's really just a matter of wanting to "go after it" - almost anything, and particularly anything that will get you in the news.

..and this cutting corners fraud is standard industry practice.  It's certainly not good, but is it really worth more than a severe financial penalty? Jail time over a year?

Meanwhile, we've got murderers that are getting paroled in less than 10 years in just about every State.

Both the Federal and State Justice systems really aren't at all concerned with justice anymore when the case has any sort of "profile".  It's mostly about that soundbite on the news that "makes your career" with law enforcement and prosecutors: pile it on, baby.

-get Martha Stewart.. b!tch is EVIL! (..sure spend 10 times as much prosecuting her and not having a substantial enough monetary penalty attached to the sentence, that will show her!)

Chuckaluphagus wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

NovusBogus wrote:

I've heard that it's basically impossible for a diesel engine to meet US emissions requirements for a personal vehicle so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the scandal grows to include a bunch of others.

As long as it uses urea injection (Blu-Tec), it works.

This. Urea injection works, but the car carries a finite supply and it needs to be replenished at semi-regular intervals depending on how much you drive your car (basically, when you take it in for regular service). It's more expensive and more complicated than the "Clean Diesel" technology that VW was touting - of course, it also actually does its job instead of blowing smoke.

I was on vacation in Stutgart in 2015 (the Porsche museum is awesome). I rented a diesel Tiguan (ugh). It was very low on AdBlue but the low fluid warning did not kick in until later in the evening (and far from the Airport Avis location I started from). The brutal part about it was that it actually warned me that the vehicle would not function once the AdBlue ran out. I was frantic as I had a mega drive the next day. It took me ages to find a petrol station that had AdBlue in stock. What a pain in the ass that was.

End User wrote:

I was on vacation in Stutgart in 2015 (the Porsche museum is awesome). I rented a diesel Tiguan (ugh). It was very low on AdBlue but the low fluid warning did not kick in until later in the evening (and far from the Airport Avis location I started from). The brutal part about it was that it actually warned me that the vehicle would not function once the AdBlue ran out. I was frantic as I had a mega drive the next day. It took me ages to find a petrol station that had AdBlue in stock. What a pain in the ass that was.

Huh...the big diesels (highway tractors) in the US are supposed to still run at severely reduced performance...you know, so you can get to the right station like this.

I guess it doesn't surprise me that AdBlue is hard to find in Europe. Here, you just need to find a truck stop because it has effectively been a requirement since 2010 (again, on the big diesel engines). OTOH, aren't diesels WAY more common on EU passenger vehicles?

superjawes wrote:

End User wrote:

I was on vacation in Stutgart in 2015 (the Porsche museum is awesome). I rented a diesel Tiguan (ugh). It was very low on AdBlue but the low fluid warning did not kick in until later in the evening (and far from the Airport Avis location I started from). The brutal part about it was that it actually warned me that the vehicle would not function once the AdBlue ran out. I was frantic as I had a mega drive the next day. It took me ages to find a petrol station that had AdBlue in stock. What a pain in the ass that was.

Huh...the big diesels (highway tractors) in the US are supposed to still run at severely reduced performance...you know, so you can get to the right station like this.

The warning message clearly stated that the vehicle needed AdBlue to operate.

The thing to remember is that Euro and US emissions regs have different targets. US regs focus solely on the reduction of NO_x, a prime constituent of "smog". Euro regs focus on reduction of CO₂. There is no way to achieve both goals in the same emissions systems; the physics and chemistry are mutually exclusive.

End User wrote:

superjawes wrote:

End User wrote:

I was on vacation in Stutgart in 2015 (the Porsche museum is awesome). I rented a diesel Tiguan (ugh). It was very low on AdBlue but the low fluid warning did not kick in until later in the evening (and far from the Airport Avis location I started from). The brutal part about it was that it actually warned me that the vehicle would not function once the AdBlue ran out. I was frantic as I had a mega drive the next day. It took me ages to find a petrol station that had AdBlue in stock. What a pain in the ass that was.

Huh...the big diesels (highway tractors) in the US are supposed to still run at severely reduced performance...you know, so you can get to the right station like this.

The warning message clearly stated that the vehicle needed AdBlue to operate.

The engine doesn't need it, urea is injected into the exhaust train in order to reduce nitrogen oxides - it never has anything to do with combustion. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the car would have a mechanism in place to stop functioning unless sufficient urea were present, though.

Forbes just published a good piece of investigative journalism on this yesterday. Long read and worth the time:

http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/volkswage ... penalties/

Yes I know its a gossip rag but.....holy cow that's a lot of cars!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... esert.html

NINJA EDIT: VW hoping to return to market......the hell! I wouldnt touch them with a ten foot pole! This is like dealerships who try to sell flooded out cars.

Hey, if the price is right, why not? Sure, you won't get the performance and/or fuel economy of the "cheater" version, but as long as you factor that in and are OK with it, what's the issue? A car that has been in a flood has suffered permanent damage. Aside from the emissions cheat, these cars should be no worse than any other used car of similar age and mileage?

I’d buy one for $5k

I'm guessing there will be a lot of people who modify the car to the old software or an even more pollutant version in the name of fuel economy at that price.

Another thought, even with the unmodified, fixed cars how much pollution would need to be created to replace these cards with company versions? Has anyone seen any analysis on the net pollution?

tanker27 wrote:

Yes I know its a gossip rag but.....holy cow that's a lot of cars!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... esert.html

NINJA EDIT: VW hoping to return to market......the hell! I wouldnt touch them with a ten foot pole! This is like dealerships who try to sell flooded out cars.

$500 for a tune gets you gobs of power and fuel economy...if you don't care about emissions.

My dad has one of the effected Touregs. What a freaking waste all around. Curious to see what that does to the prices here in the US if they are able to sell them? Flood the market with tons of cars for 1/3 the cost of a new one. Can you imagine getting a car that new would be say... 40k for something like 10k, maybe even cheaper!? Some of there really cheap cars are only worth 15-16k new, so those should be going for something like 3-5k if people will even buy them.

How about they give away each of the crappy cars to homeless people who claim they can't get a job , they can live in a car instead, have transport to a new job.... If you still can't make it after that!

Welch wrote:

My dad has one of the effected Touregs. What a freaking waste all around. Curious to see what that does to the prices here in the US if they are able to sell them? Flood the market with tons of cars for 1/3 the cost of a new one. Can you imagine getting a car that new would be say... 40k for something like 10k, maybe even cheaper!? Some of there really cheap cars are only worth 15-16k new, so those should be going for something like 3-5k if people will even buy them.

I'll bet they do the minimum retrofit work to get them released from whatever holds the US currently has levied, then dump them cheap in South America and/or Africa.

ludi wrote:

Welch wrote:

My dad has one of the effected Touregs. What a freaking waste all around. Curious to see what that does to the prices here in the US if they are able to sell them? Flood the market with tons of cars for 1/3 the cost of a new one. Can you imagine getting a car that new would be say... 40k for something like 10k, maybe even cheaper!? Some of there really cheap cars are only worth 15-16k new, so those should be going for something like 3-5k if people will even buy them.

I'll bet they do the minimum retrofit work to get them released from whatever holds the US currently has levied, then dump them cheap in South America and/or Africa.

I agree, Africa was the first place I figured they would drop them. Probably not worth it to sell them in China as they sort of already had their big vehicle boom and they tend to keep things in country from the looks of it. I guess a VW would be luxury there in many cases.

Welch wrote:

I guess a VW would be luxury there in many cases.

Yeah, that's basically the case for German branded cars there.