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morphine
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:27 am

I absolutely loved the bit where their CEO (?) said he was completely unaware of what was going on. Now, that's certainly possible in a large, sprawling organization. But having said that, we're not talking about 20 cars here. There was no way he wasn't going to know that a substantial part of the company's fleet was cheating on emission tests.
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Captain Ned
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:40 am

The real miscalculation out of Wolfsburg was the expectation that EPA and CARB would show the same deference to VW (and its employment levels) shown by German regulators. They figured on 4 months between discovery of the issue and public announcement by EPA/CARB. They got 30 minutes.
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DreadCthulhu
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:31 pm

Well, it looks VW is going to get pretty hammered in the US, where they sold 500,000 cars that were cheating. But what about Europe, where they sold some 8 million cars or so with a defeat device? Anyone have any idea what kind of penalties VW is going to face on the other side of the pond? Sure, the Germans will probably let them off with a slap on the wrist, but what about say France or Italy? Some bright member of those governments might realize that if they can toss VW into the legal crapper, it would probably help out Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, and Fiat sales.
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localhostrulez
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:46 pm

I just hope companies stop doing the CBA, assuming they can get away with crap well enough, then going and violating the spirit of the law. Now it's "violate the law, and we might just mercilessly throw you in the woodchipper". Kinda surprising (what about all the other companies doing this, Verizon getting money for buildouts they never did, etc?).
 
superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:51 pm

DreadCthulhu wrote:
Well, it looks VW is going to get pretty hammered in the US, where they sold 500,000 cars that were cheating. But what about Europe, where they sold some 8 million cars or so with a defeat device? Anyone have any idea what kind of penalties VW is going to face on the other side of the pond? Sure, the Germans will probably let them off with a slap on the wrist, but what about say France or Italy? Some bright member of those governments might realize that if they can toss VW into the legal crapper, it would probably help out Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, and Fiat sales.

he USA is not exactly an example of corruption-free governance, and yet we gave VW quite a lashing. If any Euro government does less, I think it will reflect quite poorly, weakening their positions in their countries and the Eurozone overall. As for local brands, I'm more curious as to what pressure they put on their own governments.
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morphine
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:48 pm

I agree with the poster above. I'm a happy member of the EU and like the general environmental and energy concerns, but the system well and truly failed this time. We were supposed to have the tight pollution controls. :roll:
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Chuckaluphagus
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:46 pm

morphine wrote:
I'm a happy member of the EU and like the general environmental and energy concerns, but the system well and truly failed this time. We were supposed to have the tight pollution controls. :roll:

From what I've been reading, it isn't quite that simple. The USA regulates nitrogen oxides much more strictly than Europe, and carbon dioxide much less so. The EU has the reverse.* The entire reason for the defeat mechanism was to try and fake past very stringent US NOx emission requirements with a vehicle that was theoretically designed to comply with EU regulations, all within a limited monetary budget.

* Reasons are historical, public health-related and political; I'd love it if we could just take the best of both systems.
 
Captain Ned
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:48 pm

morphine wrote:
I agree with the poster above. I'm a happy member of the EU and like the general environmental and energy concerns, but the system well and truly failed this time. We were supposed to have the tight pollution controls. :roll:

Europe focuses on CO2 for climate change purposes whereas the US focuses on NOx for smog reduction purposes, and tech to reduce one often increases the other.
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JustAnEngineer
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:14 pm

Chuckaluphagus wrote:
The USA regulates nitrogen oxides much more strictly than Europe, and carbon dioxide much less so. The EU has the reverse.* The entire reason for the defeat mechanism was to try and fake past very stringent US NOx emission requirements with a vehicle that was theoretically designed to comply with EU regulations, all within a limited monetary budget.
Apparently, upper-level VW managers decided that the cost of being caught was likely to be very cheap while a law-abiding emissions control system would have added $300 to $350 to the cost of each diesel Volkswagen sold.
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superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:32 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
morphine wrote:
I agree with the poster above. I'm a happy member of the EU and like the general environmental and energy concerns, but the system well and truly failed this time. We were supposed to have the tight pollution controls. :roll:

Europe focuses on CO2 for climate change purposes whereas the US focuses on NOx for smog reduction purposes, and tech to reduce one often increases the other.

Just to add, Euro regulations don't have to be as strict because the demand for fuel efficiency spiked well before the US (cost of fuel is significantly higher in Europe). So US regulations are ahead of Euro ones in terms of strictness (how low emissions must be in general).

If anyone cares, this is because regulations are based on emissions per unit of fuel (so [NOx/CO2]/[Gal/L]). So when compares to US equivalents, Euro vehicles essentially run dirtier per gallon/liter, but the vehicle travels a greater distance on that fuel.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. It's infested by crypto bull****.
 
Captain Ned
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:35 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Apparently, upper-level VW managers decided that the cost of being caught was likely to be very cheap while a law-abiding emissions control system would have added $300 to $350 to the cost of each diesel Volkswagen sold.

One interesting thing that might come out of the litigation that will inevitably ensue is some idea of the multiplier factor between mfg cost and MSRP. I know that for halo cars cost & price have little relationship, but for the bread 'n' butter VW TDI fleet, there must have been a very specific number in mind.
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:03 pm

Another thing is that there's apparently been a very long tradition of massive regulatory capture of the European emissions/fuel economy testing regimes. (Read: almost everyone is cheating on CO2, too, and some of the cheating's legal under the current test procedures. Things like taping over seams, overinflating tires, using a test track that has a 1.5% downward slope both ways for calculating roll-down coefficients (they require the test be run in two different directions to compensate for wind, but they didn't think to require the test be run on the same track in two different directions), running thinner lubricants than normal, disconnecting alternators, that kind of thing.)

The German automakers were trying to get those cheats to be allowed in the new standards, too, that were designed to reflect real-world performance (the European test cycle is rather well known for producing ludicrously high efficiency numbers even when an automaker isn't cheating), until Dieselgate broke. That brought a lot of this stuff into the light (it had already been discussed among environmental groups, but it wasn't that well known).
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:46 pm

The only time I care about fuel efficiency is when I drop a gear in my GLI to pass a slow moving Prius. I love watching the l/km gauge jump over to over 50. It completely negates the savings they have done on their commute.

Before you rip into me for being a poluting ass I'd like to remind you that the human race in its entirety is a plague upon planet Earth.

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tanker27
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:43 am

Lifehacker posted a walk trough on how you apply for the Buy back: http://jalopnik.com/here-is-exactly-how ... 1784428223
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superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:00 pm

Settlement Approved

There could still be more financial impacts to VW, but this marks a ~$15 Billion hit. Sounds like owners have the option for a buyback or to get a fix + cash (presumably for happy VW owners). However, the fix isn't available (nor approved), and if VW don't get one rolled out by October 2017, owners who opted for the fix route would fall back to the buyback.
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Waco
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:46 am

I wonder how they'll force owners to go for the buyback or fix. I know many who don't care and would rather have the original power + economy...
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just brew it!
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:39 am

Waco wrote:
I wonder how they'll force owners to go for the buyback or fix. I know many who don't care and would rather have the original power + economy...

I imagine in areas where there is mandatory verification of emission control systems (like here in the Chicago metro area) the state could deny license plate renewal. That'll only catch the ones in large metro areas with a smog problem (which is where the federal Clean Air Act mandates this verification), but that's where it matters the most.
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ludi
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:52 am

AFAIK the entire state of California requires a bi-ennial (two-year) recertification for SMOG checking.  Many counties in Colorado including all of Denver metro operate on a similar program, albeit with a less-intensive test procedure. Quite a few other states and/or major metro areas do as well, such as Chicago mentioned above.  So, if the owner's vehicle is noncompliant and they refused the manufacturer's free fix, I can't see them having many alternatives when their plate application is denied (other than transferring the vehicle to an unregulated jurisdiction).
Last edited by ludi on Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kvndoom
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:55 am

ludi wrote:
AFAIK the entire state of California requires a bi-ennial (two-year) recertification for SMOG checking.  A good chunk of Colorado does (some counties don't participate). Quite a few other states and/or major metro areas do as well, such as Chicago mentioned above.  So, if the owner's vehicle is deemed noncompliant and they refused to obtain the manufacturer's free fix, I can't see them having many legal alternatives if their plate application is denied (other than transferring the vehicle to an unregulated jurisdiction).

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superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:15 am

just brew it! wrote:
Waco wrote:
I wonder how they'll force owners to go for the buyback or fix. I know many who don't care and would rather have the original power + economy...

I imagine in areas where there is mandatory verification of emission control systems (like here in the Chicago metro area) the state could deny license plate renewal. That'll only catch the ones in large metro areas with a smog problem (which is where the federal Clean Air Act mandates this verification), but that's where it matters the most.
Yup. Rural owners might not be forced to do anything, but anyone who gets an emissions check will have to get the fix or be unable to register the vehicle.

Although I think it would be silly to completely avoid the fix. Sure, you might lose power/economy, but you'd get cash in your pocket. Alternatively, you can sell back the vehicle at a somewhat fixed price, avoiding the depreciation associated with flooding the used market (assuming that is how the buyback program works).
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. It's infested by crypto bull****.
 
Waco
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:41 am

superjawes wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Waco wrote:
I wonder how they'll force owners to go for the buyback or fix. I know many who don't care and would rather have the original power + economy...

I imagine in areas where there is mandatory verification of emission control systems (like here in the Chicago metro area) the state could deny license plate renewal. That'll only catch the ones in large metro areas with a smog problem (which is where the federal Clean Air Act mandates this verification), but that's where it matters the most.
Yup. Rural owners might not be forced to do anything, but anyone who gets an emissions check will have to get the fix or be unable to register the vehicle.

Although I think it would be silly to completely avoid the fix. Sure, you might lose power/economy, but you'd get cash in your pocket. Alternatively, you can sell back the vehicle at a somewhat fixed price, avoiding the depreciation associated with flooding the used market (assuming that is how the buyback program works).

True.

I can imagine it's fairly simple to get the fix at the dealer, and immediately turn around (with cash in hand) and get a performance tune installed that invalidates the fix anyway. :) I would bet the emissions test is simply going to see if the fix was done at some point, not whether it's still there...
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MileageMayVary
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:32 pm

superjawes wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
I imagine in areas where there is mandatory verification of emission control systems (like here in the Chicago metro area) the state could deny license plate renewal. That'll only catch the ones in large metro areas with a smog problem (which is where the federal Clean Air Act mandates this verification), but that's where it matters the most.

Yup.  Rural owners might not be forced to do anything, but anyone who gets an emissions check will have to get the fix or be unable to register the vehicle.

Although I think it would be silly to completely avoid the fix.  Sure, you might lose power/economy, but you'd get cash in your pocket.  Alternatively, you can sell back the vehicle at a somewhat fixed price, avoiding the depreciation associated with flooding the used market (assuming that is how the buyback program works).

I would guess the suggestions of fix it then defeat it again might fly in some areas but for those who don't know (such as our European friends) each state has vastly different inspection and emissions requirements. I live in Maryland and cars only need to be inspected when ownership changes hands but the car needs to be emissions tested every two years. I know of people who have removed their catalytic converters but they keep them around and slap them back in when it comes time for the test. To the north and south of me, Pennsylvania and Virginia, cars need an inspection every year or two (as evidenced by the stickers on their windshields). It's likely there are places where cars never need to get tested and I could see such devices being popular in those areas.
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just brew it!
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:48 pm

In IL they just connect a cable to the OBD port, and if there aren't any emissions-related codes you're good to go. I suppose they might have a different procedure for VW vehicles affected by the recall.
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ludi
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:16 pm

just brew it! wrote:
In IL they just connect a cable to the OBD port, and if there aren't any emissions-related codes you're good to go. I suppose they might have a different procedure for VW vehicles affected by the recall.

We have about a five minute ramping dyno test here, and both the tailpipe emissions and realtime OBD-II data are analyzed.  There's also a brief visual inspection to verify the presence of the vapor-recovery equipment, and a pressure test of the fuel tank cap (for vehicles that aren't capless by design).  New vehicles are exempt for a few years.

Denver is famous for its winter temperature inversions and 300 days of sun per year with a high UV index due to elevation, so smog has been a real problem, hence the testing regimen.
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just brew it!
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:21 pm

ludi wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
In IL they just connect a cable to the OBD port, and if there aren't any emissions-related codes you're good to go. I suppose they might have a different procedure for VW vehicles affected by the recall.

We have about a five minute ramping dyno test here, and both the tailpipe emissions and realtime OBD-II data are analyzed.  There's also a brief visual inspection to verify the presence of the vapor-recovery equipment, and a pressure test of the fuel tank cap (for vehicles that aren't capless by design).  New vehicles are exempt for a few years.

IL did it that way originally. They switched to the OBD-only procedure a few years back.
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Waco
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:06 pm

Here in NM there are only a few counties that even check. Emissions equipment is required, but no checks at all in the vast majority of the state.
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tanker27
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:40 am

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just brew it!
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:06 am

I hope they've got iron-clad evidence of willful lawbreaking by the individual who was arrested. Otherwise this sets a precedent that I'm not entirely comfortable with.
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Glorious
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:13 am

That engineer they indicted plead guilty a few months back. To conspiracy.

Thus he's almost certainly snitching and the Feds almost certainly have something substantive towards intent.
 
superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:17 am

just brew it! wrote:
I hope they've got iron-clad evidence of willful lawbreaking by the individual who was arrested. Otherwise this sets a precedent that I'm not entirely comfortable with.

I see this bit:
NYT wrote:
James Liang, a former Volkswagen engineer who worked for the company in California, pleaded guilty in September to charges that included conspiracy to defraud the federal government and violating the Clean Air Act. But Mr. Schmidt’s arrest brings the investigation into the executive ranks.

Having one engineer plead guilty already gives a stronger foundation for charges against the executive. They might even be able to use said engineer's testimony.

And Glorious snuck in with basically the same thinking:
Glorious wrote:
That engineer they indicted plead guilty a few months back. To conspiracy.

Thus he's almost certainly snitching and the Feds almost certainly have something substantive towards intent.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. It's infested by crypto bull****.
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