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tanker27
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VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:09 am

OH Snap! (CAUTION RP Bait)

http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-diese ... 1731857018

If you have been following this since the late breaking news on last friday what are your thoughts.

Now this: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-admits-i ... 1732283322

WOW
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Jigar
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:33 am

I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it, the software manipulation didn't alter performance of the car for the owner. I have a diesel VW Polo - Performance is topnotch and never noticed any performance degradation.
Its only the investors & Government who have the chance to can call foul on this matter and have the opportunity to make some cash.
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Chrispy_
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:57 am

Here in London, there's far too much diesel and I honestly wouldn't bat an eyelid if it transpires all manufacturer's cheat the test to gain compliance.

My experience is that all diesels are horrific to be behind, as a cyclist - even the new ones. Europe is a very different landscape to the US, but I honestly hope that anyone found gaming the system is forced to recall, retrofit and re-flash the ECU of a diesel car so that it always runs with the efficiency required to meet the emmissions standards. If they can game the test but cutting power or torque, they can run like that all the time.

They all deserve any hefty fines they incur and I also believe that a diesel owner who was missold a car based on performance/emissions ratio (a serious consideration here as cars are taxed by emissions band: sub-100gCO2/km is free, and 2.5x that is over $800 in tax every year) should have the right to a full refund or a swap to a reconditioned petrol of the same spec/age/mileage. With some of the diesels being 8x more emmissive than claimed, that 2.5x difference in tax bands is going to probably make most diesel owners seriously consider scrapping their new car. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the death knell for diesel because I have a very very hard time believing that only VW are failing emmisions compliance. As bad as it sounds, I've seen new US model cars from General Motors (Vuaxhall, Opel) and Fords, as well as the French, Italian and Japanese marques all belching out noxious fumes of thick grey smoke. Damn stuff smells, and it visibly gets into my lungs and sinuses as evidenced by the colour of my phlegm and snot on a day when I'm stuck in diesel-filled traffic jams.
Last edited by Chrispy_ on Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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xonarlover
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:58 am

Jigar wrote:
I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it, the software manipulation didn't alter performance of the car for the owner. I have a diesel VW Polo - Performance is topnotch and never noticed any performance degradation.
Its only the investors & Government who have the chance to can call foul on this matter and have the opportunity to make some cash.


When VW issues the software patch to fall into emission guidelines, your VW Polo will have reduced performance.

I'm getting deja vu to the Sony OtherOS debacle.
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chubbyhorse
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:11 am

*GASP* They called my beloved Mercedes soot blasting. I'll show you soot blasting! Go find a hopped up Cummins and roll coal. How's that for soot blasting? :P

Sure when the injectors are dirty it'll haze a little when you get on the throttle, but it sure doesn't seem to be all that bad in comparison.

Lots of people hate Diesel, and I'm used to the ridicule of the smell etc, but knowing it has better thermal efficiency, simpler hydrocarbon chains in the fuel make for better and greener fuel alternatives as opposed to fossil fuels.. Its a shame the public view of Diesel is so tarnished.

The technology could be so much more.

Personally it doesn't change my viewpoint of VW or Diesel in general. Shame on VW for trying cheat. Yet theyre making it look like your TDI car is udderly broken. Its not. Let them pay a fine, fix the software so they are in compliance with local emmisions if need be and move on.
 
superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:13 am

xonarlover wrote:
Jigar wrote:
I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it, the software manipulation didn't alter performance of the car for the owner. I have a diesel VW Polo - Performance is topnotch and never noticed any performance degradation.
Its only the investors & Government who have the chance to can call foul on this matter and have the opportunity to make some cash.


When VW issues the software patch to fall into emission guidelines, your VW Polo will have reduced performance.

I'm getting deja vu to the Sony OtherOS debacle.

I was going to say something like this. If this can be fixed via software, it will be, and you can expect a performance penalty. Long-term, it could hurt the VW brand, too. They could be locked out of the US market for a time, see a huge dropoff in sales for several years, and the used market could get flooded with dirt cheap models (a flooded used market is very bad because you can't sell your new stuff).

Chrispy_ wrote:
Here in London, there's far too much diesel and I honestly wouldn't bat an eyelid if it transpires all manufacturer's cheat the test to gain compliance.

My experience is that all diesels are horrific to be behind, as a cyclist - even the new ones. Europe is a very different landscape to the US, but I honestly hope that anyone found gaming the system is forced to recall, retrofit and re-flash the ECU of a diesel car so that it always runs with the efficiency required to meet the emmissions standards. If they can game the test but cutting power or torque, they can run like that all the time.

Just two thoughts that make Europe/UK different from US:

1. US emissions regulations are tighter than Europe's. There may be an argument to make about emissions versus MPG, but with looser regulations, I'm willing to bet that what's coming out of the tailpipe is nastier.

2. Europe has a lot more diesel in consumer vehicles compared to the US. Your gas prices are significantly higher, and diesel cars were presented as an alternative. In the US, diesel is mostly used in commercial vehicles and some redneck toys.

I don't know if your auto makers are gaming the system, but I can see how diesel vehicles would be nasty for you, even if they aren't cheating.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
chubbyhorse
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:23 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
My experience is that all diesels are horrific to be behind, as a cyclist - even the new ones.


To be fair all combustion smell. Even gasoline. My antique tractor I've switched to Ethanol not because I'm a tree hugger but the smell of gasoline stinks from this old thing and burning alcohol doesn't burn my eyes when I start it in the shed to pull it outside.

Its not just because its an old tractor, I've noted the same thing from my car too. Running ethanol for a couple months then going to petrol again, it stunk.
 
Deanjo
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:29 am

The tuner manufacturers are going to love this.

VW owner takes vehicle in for service. System gets flashed to start adhering the EPA emmisions.

Owner notices reduced performance.

Owner gets ticked off and purchases tuner to remove the restriction again.
 
Deanjo
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:33 am

chubbyhorse wrote:
My antique tractor I've switched to Ethanol not because I'm a tree hugger but the smell of gasoline stinks from this old thing and burning alcohol doesn't burn my eyes when I start it in the shed to pull it outside.


Kiss your valves and head gasket goodbye if you continue to run ethanol in that antique tractor.
 
Chrispy_
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:39 am

chubbyhorse wrote:
but knowing [diesel] has better thermal efficiency, simpler hydrocarbon chains in the fuel make for better and greener fuel alternatives as opposed to fossil fuels.

Uh, newsflash! Diesel *is* a fossil fuel.
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dmjifn
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:47 am

Jigar wrote:
I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it

Not true. I have a B5 Passat V6 30v that I loved (then hated then loved) that I bought it new in 2003. I still pay the dealer tax for every scheduled maintenance. I'm starting the process of buying my next car and the Golf is currently tied for first with the Forester.

The point is, I am a long time VW customer and I do care about issues like this. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I believe in rule of law and reasonable integrity. I think if you're not at least little bothered with what power gets away with, you're not "practical", you're just cynical. It'll happen because "people" and that's how it is. But then there needs to come the punishment, because that's the deal.
 
mattshwink
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:56 am

Jigar wrote:
I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it, the software manipulation didn't alter performance of the car for the owner. I have a diesel VW Polo - Performance is topnotch and never noticed any performance degradation.
Its only the investors & Government who have the chance to can call foul on this matter and have the opportunity to make some cash.


Customers will start to care. In the US (California is the most stringent) and Europe cars must pass emissions standards (where I live it is every two years). You can bet that they are looking for this when they do emissions tests in the near future and possibly fine/tax owners of these vehicles more heavily. How long that takes is the only question (my bet is 12 months - but in the more stringent areas like California they will likely implement restrictions sooner). Owners will really start to care then, as it will start to cost them money.
 
superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:24 am

mattshwink wrote:
Customers will start to care. In the US (California is the most stringent) and Europe cars must pass emissions standards (where I live it is every two years). You can bet that they are looking for this when they do emissions tests in the near future and possibly fine/tax owners of these vehicles more heavily. How long that takes is the only question (my bet is 12 months - but in the more stringent areas like California they will likely implement restrictions sooner). Owners will really start to care then, as it will start to cost them money.

If the owner has not modified his/her vehicle, I don't think a government can fine them for driving a non-EPA compliant vehicle. They might be able to tax per emissions (to encourage better/fixed vehicles), but that opens up even bigger problems for VW. I can smell the class action from here...
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
jihadjoe
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:30 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
I have a very very hard time believing that only VW are failing emmisions compliance.


Cars that come properly equipped with a urea system are probably ok, but anything that doesn't have it and claims compliance should be suspect.
 
jihadjoe
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:33 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
I have a very very hard time believing that only VW are failing emmisions compliance.

Cars that come properly equipped with a urea system are probably ok, but anything that doesn't have it and claims compliance should be suspect.

superjawes wrote:
mattshwink wrote:
Customers will start to care. In the US (California is the most stringent) and Europe cars must pass emissions standards (where I live it is every two years). You can bet that they are looking for this when they do emissions tests in the near future and possibly fine/tax owners of these vehicles more heavily. How long that takes is the only question (my bet is 12 months - but in the more stringent areas like California they will likely implement restrictions sooner). Owners will really start to care then, as it will start to cost them money.

If the owner has not modified his/her vehicle, I don't think a government can fine them for driving a non-EPA compliant vehicle. They might be able to tax per emissions (to encourage better/fixed vehicles), but that opens up even bigger problems for VW. I can smell the class action from here...

The decent thing to do once they find out how to measure VWs properly would be to write down the appropriate fine, but issue the invoice to VW instead of the car owner. I suspect part of that $7B war chest they are setting aside will go to exactly this sort of thing.
 
Jigar
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:44 am

dmjifn wrote:
Jigar wrote:
I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it

Not true. I have a B5 Passat V6 30v that I loved (then hated then loved) that I bought it new in 2003. I still pay the dealer tax for every scheduled maintenance. I'm starting the process of buying my next car and the Golf is currently tied for first with the Forester.

The point is, I am a long time VW customer and I do care about issues like this. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I believe in rule of law and reasonable integrity. I think if you're not at least little bothered with what power gets away with, you're not "practical", you're just cynical. It'll happen because "people" and that's how it is. But then there needs to come the punishment, because that's the deal.


B5 Passat V6 30V is a petrol car and VW petrol cars are not under questions here, only VW Diesel cars with Type EA 189 engines have the manipulative software.

Here is the complete list of cars that are affected = http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ected.html
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gigabine
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:57 am

I can't believe my eyes, not sure if I should laugh or cry.
 
slowriot
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:59 am

VW was trying to get past the NOx emissions part of the tests. Not just CO2. This doesn't require you subscribe to climate change to see the harm. It's just down right disgusting. They would have continued to sell the cars this way too if they hadn't have been caught. Millions and millions of vehicles.

VW just killed themselves in the US for at least 5 years, probably longer. They just murdered the entire market for passenger diesel cars in the US going forward too. This is really a monumental disaster.

I've let out long sighs every morning since this news broke when getting into my new Golf R. Really puts a damper on enjoying a new car when you know a large portion of your money went towards funding this epic example of corporate greed.
 
dmjifn
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:04 am

Jigar wrote:
B5 Passat V6 30V is a petrol car and VW petrol cars are not under questions here, only VW Diesel cars with Type EA 189 engines have the manipulative software.

Not sure if trolling or serious! :)
 
UnfriendlyFire
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:35 am

Jigar wrote:
I don't think VW customers will care about this issue or should care about it, the software manipulation didn't alter performance of the car for the owner. I have a diesel VW Polo - Performance is topnotch and never noticed any performance degradation.
Its only the investors & Government who have the chance to can call foul on this matter and have the opportunity to make some cash.


VW's cars will likely be banned by California and other states that require NOx testing, and they'll know that VW's cars failed the emission tests for sure by now.

Even if you're still allowed to drive your VW diesel car, expect its used sale value to plunge when people are forced to give up their cars in those states.
 
mattshwink
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:22 am

superjawes wrote:
mattshwink wrote:
Customers will start to care. In the US (California is the most stringent) and Europe cars must pass emissions standards (where I live it is every two years). You can bet that they are looking for this when they do emissions tests in the near future and possibly fine/tax owners of these vehicles more heavily. How long that takes is the only question (my bet is 12 months - but in the more stringent areas like California they will likely implement restrictions sooner). Owners will really start to care then, as it will start to cost them money.

If the owner has not modified his/her vehicle, I don't think a government can fine them for driving a non-EPA compliant vehicle. They might be able to tax per emissions (to encourage better/fixed vehicles), but that opens up even bigger problems for VW. I can smell the class action from here...



The government can do whatever it wants :) Technically the legislation says cars must meet emissions standards. If they can fix the emissions tests to no longer trigger the "bypass" that allows the cars to pass then cars could start failing the test. From there you typically have 30 days to fix it or you start accruing fines. It's important to note that while the EPA sets general standards individual states/jurisdictions set the emissions standards for cars that they license. The actual standards vary (such that the most stringent I know of is California, and car manufacturers have taken to noting in their marketing materials that their cars meet California standards).

There are of course some ifs in that statement. If they can get the emissions tests to show the cars are failing emissions standards.....if it cannot be fixed. What will most likely happen is that VM is going to be required to fix their cars (looks like it is just software). So if you own a VW you are likely going to get a recall notice. Individual jurisdictions must then do two things:
1. Fix their emissions tests to not trigger the bypass
2. Decide if they are going to give VW owners longer than the standard 30 days to get their vehicles fixed (since it will likely be a recall, this should be free for owners) - this could require a legislative fix, executive order, or possibly just an administrative decision
 
spiritwalker2222
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:24 am

One has to wonder if VW will file for bankruptcy. Not only will they have a huge payout, but there sales numbers and price preimium will suffer greatly for years to come.
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Atradeimos
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:45 am

spiritwalker2222 wrote:
One has to wonder if VW will file for bankruptcy. Not only will they have a huge payout, but there sales numbers and price preimium will suffer greatly for years to come.


Well, the conglomerate includes Audi and Porsche, which will be more or less unaffected.

Edit: I guess Audi uses the same engine in some models. I think VW is going to take the fall for this though, and Audi will be relatively less affected.
 
ludi
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:56 am

Atradeimos wrote:
Well, the conglomerate includes Audi and Porsche, which will be more or less unaffected.

Edit: I guess Audi uses the same engine in some models. I think VW is going to take the fall for this though, and Audi will be relatively less affected.

Audi is too closely linked with VW, and uses most of the same parts bin. Marques like Porsche and Lamborghini can be sold off again if necessary, but Audi exists or not based on whether the mainstream VW models can pay for development costs on the platforms (e.g. Golf, Jetta, TT, and A3/A4 all live on essentially the same platform). They won't take the same hit on sales but the brand isn't going to walk away spotless on this one, especially if VW gets forced into a bankruptcy reorg by the lost market capitalization, lawsuits, and recall costs.
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tanker27
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:58 am

spiritwalker2222 wrote:
there sales numbers and price preimium will suffer greatly for years to come.


Well, as of today I read that there is a do not sell order on all remaining 2015 TDI Stock and that the EPA refuses to certify all 2016 stock amounting to a do not sell on those cars. This will certainly come to bite them in the proverbial arse.

And remember we aren't just talking about the US EPA the VW Auto group certainly has to answer Europe's and Australia's version of the EPA.
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superjawes
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:12 pm

mattshwink wrote:
The government can do whatever it wants :)

I know this might have been in jest, but it isn't true. A fine implies that someone did something wrong, so whatever jurisdiction would have to find fault in the vehicle owner before it could levy a "fine" on said owner. VW owners were told that their vehicles were fine at the point of sale and during emissions testing. They might be required to "fix" their vehicles after a certain period of time, but outright punishing them for the fault of the manufacturer would be difficult (and wrong).

Technically the legislation says cars must meet emissions standards. If they can fix the emissions tests to no longer trigger the "bypass" that allows the cars to pass then cars could start failing the test. From there you typically have 30 days to fix it or you start accruing fines. It's important to note that while the EPA sets general standards individual states/jurisdictions set the emissions standards for cars that they license. The actual standards vary (such that the most stringent I know of is California, and car manufacturers have taken to noting in their marketing materials that their cars meet California standards).

EPA regulations can also determine what you can and cannot sell in the US. Vehicles that do not meet the standard for manufacturing year are illegal to sell, or the manufacturer can (sometimes) sell them while paying penalties/credits/etc. All of this places the responsibility squarely on VW, and they will likely be liable for unpaid penalties.

For owners it will come down to what each state requires and why the vehicle needs emissions compliance. Here in the Chicago Metro, I wouldn't get hit with a fine if my vehicle failed, but I can't renew my registration until I get a passing emissions test or a waiver. Despite the more stringent requirements, California appears to be the same. You aren't fined outright for failing emissions, but you can't register, which means you can't drive. Illinois and California legislatures (if they want to be kind and earn easy brownie points) could offer automatic waivers for affected models (this also assumes that the engines can't be "fixed" by VW).

My point is that owners are relatively safe from penalties, and the fallout from this is going to land on VW. Since they technically sold non-EPA compliant vehicles, they have unpaid fines that the EPA may demand. Since they deliberately manipulated the testing results, they may be subject to additional fines just for that. If owners get slapped with a repair bill to make their VW vehicle EPA compliant, VW could get hit with a separate class action lawsuit to pay those repairs. Hell, owners and dealers could sue VW for wrecking the sale price of used VWs (argument: plaintiff bought a VW vehicle expecting certain resale values that are no longer applicable because the vehicle was not EPA compliant).

This is going to hurt. The VW brand is the bulk of that groups sales. Sure, Audi, Porsche, etc. might avoid the consumer ire, but financial trouble for the parent company could easy ripple through those brands, too.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
chubbyhorse
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:26 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Uh, newsflash! Diesel *is* a fossil fuel.

I'm sorry, I wrote that in haste, and wasn't clear when I wrote it and I realize petrol Diesel is made from fossil fuel, but I was referring to BioDiesel derived from plant and algae sources and other new tech that is out there such as Diesel fuel made from CO2 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ister.html)

Deanjo wrote:
Kiss your valves and head gasket goodbye if you continue to run ethanol in that antique tractor.


The tractor (1957 John Deere 420) was made to use leaded gasoline, which is also an octane booster and also protects the valves from carbon buildup. I used to run Aviation Gas with 100 Octane and lead (Known as 100LL). However, once the price passed $6/gal that practice became too cost prohibitive. I found by jetting the carb, I can run the E85 blend readily available with no adverse effects; as opposed to regular 87 octane gas which caused severe spark knock at factory timing specs.
 
Flatland_Spider
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:33 pm

slowriot wrote:
VW just killed themselves in the US for at least 5 years, probably longer. They just murdered the entire market for passenger diesel cars in the US going forward too. This is really a monumental disaster.


Probably not. This isn't a safety risk, so most people aren't going to care. Hyundai was caught inflating their MPG number, and there wasn't any backlash against them.

VW doesn't sell enough cars in the market to really be a factor, and most people buying VWs are aware of their spotty reliability record. Diesel people want a diesel or the MPGs on the sticker, so not so much. Plus the number of people buying a VW diesel is very small in the US. There will be five people who don't buy a VW diesel, so not the apocalypse your expecting.

I've let out long sighs every morning since this news broke when getting into my new Golf R. Really puts a damper on enjoying a new car when you know a large portion of your money went towards funding this epic example of corporate greed.


Too funny. :) Where do you think your money goes with any company? Just because a company hasn't been caught doesn't mean they aren't cheating.
 
ludi
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:56 pm

chubbyhorse wrote:
I'm sorry, I wrote that in haste, and wasn't clear when I wrote it and I realize petrol Diesel is made from fossil fuel, but I was referring to BioDiesel derived from plant and algae sources and other new tech that is out there such as Diesel fuel made from CO2 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ister.html)

High temperature electrolysis and a compression reactor? That's a lot of energy input to basically convert the two primary products of hydrocarbon combustion back into a fuel form. Wouldn't bank on that being "net green" anytime in the near future.
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Atradeimos
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Re: VW in deep Doo-Doo

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:00 pm

ludi wrote:
Audi is too closely linked with VW, and uses most of the same parts bin.


I question the degree to which the common Audi buyer is aware of this, but yeah if VW can't subsidize platforms then it will be a big issue.
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